Romans 11 : 32

[walterpthefirst]

  12 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Yes, but faith doesn't just pop into existence out of nowhere.

 

It begins with a holy book in all religions.

 

Your faith MUST be based upon something and if its not the Bible, then what?

 

 

 

 

 

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Let's follow up on this.  Your contention is that God bound humanity in the Bible.  The direct question to you is are we free in any aspect we may imagine and does it make that Biblical proposition true or false.  Very very very simple direct questions to you sir.  Please respond.

[walterpthefirst]

I will respond, Edgarcito.

 

 

Here is the what the Bible says.

 

Romans 11 : 32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

It is my contention that a Bible-believing Christian who accepts that the Bible is true must therefore also accept what Romans 11 : 32 plainly says - that god created all of us unable to obey him. 

 

For that Christian the proposition is true.  Because they believe that the Bible is true.

 

This is the proposition, based upon scripture, that must be true if the Bible is taken to be true.

[walterpthefirst]

Edgarcito,

 

From what I've copied to this new thread we now have a good starting point - my contention and my proposition, which you asked about.

 

 

Let's follow up on this.  Your contention is that God bound humanity in the Bible.  The direct question to you is are we free in any aspect we may imagine and does it make that Biblical proposition true or false.  Very very very simple direct questions to you sir.  Please respond.

 

 

On the basis of this proposition we humans are not free to obey god.  We may be free in any aspect we may imagine, but that's not what counts here.  The only thing that counts here is obedience to god because he's the one making the rules.   This passage in Romans clearly says that he made it impossible for anyone to obey him.  Therefore, we are not free in that one, vital aspect.

 

Whether we are are free or not doesn't affect the truth or the falsehood of the proposition.  What does affect the truth or falsehood of it is whether a Christian accepts Romans 11 : 32 as true.  If they accept that the entire Bible is true, then Romans must be true also.  If they accept Romans to be true then they must also accept that god created everyone unable to obey him - because that is what it says.

 

 

There is quite a lot to unpack here Edgarcito and its not very, very simple.  But I have created this thread so that I can explain anything that you want and answer any questions you like.  I'm here to help you understand.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

12 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Edgarcito,

 

 

On the basis of this proposition we humans are not free to obey god.  We may be free in any aspect we may imagine, but that's not what counts here.  

Not free=bound.   Please give me an example of how we are free in any aspect we may imagine....that I might understand.

 

Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Not free=bound.   Please give me an example of how we are free in any aspect we may imagine....that I might understand.

 

Thx.

 

Thanks for joining me here, Ed.

 

 

I'll see what I can do to answer your question.  But please note that if I'm not going to be able to ask any questions, then I'll have to find my way in the dark.  I'll be guessing at what you mean and liable to make mistakes or misunderstand what you're asking.  Your question may seem blindingly obvious to you, but it may not be to me and without being able to check by asking you what you mean I'll have probably have to make several attempts before getting it right.

 

This is the price you and I are going to have to pay if only you can ask questions in this thread.  Slow, painfully slow progress with many obstacles along the way.  But I won't ask you any questions at all - if that's what you want.  You, however can ask me anything and I'll try and answer, ok?

 

 

Now to your question.

 

Please give me an example of how we are free in any aspect we may imagine.

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean in the highlighted section of your question.  What we are dealing with here, with Romans 11 : 32 and its context is what the Bible says.  What we can imagine has nothing to do with that.  Or, at least, I can't see any way that our imaginations have any effect on what's written in the Bible.

 

But I'll have a go at trying to answer what I think you might mean.

 

Assuming that you mean how are we free in the context of Romans 11 : 32 the best answer that I can give you is this.  We are free to live our lives and to make free choices every day.  But when it comes to obeying god, we cannot do that.  Not until we are born again of god.  After that moment, we have the potential to obey god, should we choose to do so.  Our unbound free will kicks in once we accept Jesus as our saviour and lord and we are born again of the Holy Spirit.

 

But before that moment we are bound by god into a condition of helpless disobedience, unable to do anything that pleases him and always sinning according to our unsaved natures.  This, of course, means that anyone who is not a born again Christian lives in a hopeless state of disobedience to god and if they die in their sins they will spend eternity in hell.  

 

As I said before, I don't really understand what you mean by, "in any aspect we may imagine", but I hope this post is helpful.  If you want to try and explain what you mean by that then please go for it.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

Hey Edgarcito!

 

 

I've just had what might be a good idea.  Why don't I draw up a list of questions that will help explain my thinking?  Then you can pick out the ones from the list that you'd like answered.  For instance, 'Could you answer # 3 and # 5?".  Then I'd go and answer them for you, referring only to the Bible and explaining further if you want.  Here's a bunch to kick things off and if I think of any more, I can add them to this list.  Or you could add some yourself.

 

 

1. 

If I was bound into a state of disobedience by god, how did I choose to accept Jesus as my saviour and lord?

 

2.

When I accepted Jesus, who was doing the choosing, me or god?

 

3.

How is it that Paul knows so much about god binding everyone like this?

 

4.

What does this bondage to disobedience mean for the Jews?

 

5.

What does this bondage mean for the Gentiles who died before they could hear about Jesus and be saved?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

Very simple question Walter....give me an example of freedom "in any aspect we may imagine".  That's not some word salad that needs explaining.  In your world it's all physical anyhow.....so please indulge.

 

thx.

[walterpthefirst]

57 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Very simple question Walter....give me an example of freedom "in any aspect we may imagine".  That's not some word salad that needs explaining.  In your world it's all physical anyhow.....so please indulge.

 

thx.

 

 

I'm really sorry Edgarcito, but I thought I'd explained to you that I don't really understand what you mean by this.

 

You claim that it doesn't need explaining, but you can't really know how my thinking goes, can you?

 

I could be the one at fault here and therefore I need a bit of help from you.

 

So, could you please try to find another way of saying what you mean?

 

And not get angry or frustrated at our communication problems.

 

After all, I did warn you that progress was going to be slow.

 

 

Or we could throw this open to other members and see if they understand what you mean?

 

 

I'm open to other ideas too.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

No I’m done… thx

[walterpthefirst]

Well then, I'll keep this thread open for a while in case anyone else is interested in it.

 

Maybe something will come up that interests you, Ed?

 

If so, I'll be happy to continue in my offer to explain and elaborate on anything you want.

 

However, on the basis of what's happened today, I'll need to add a proviso.

 

Provided that I can understand what your questions mean.

 

If we find ourselves having the same kind of difficulties as today, my second offer remains open.

 

I'm happy to work with you to iron out these communication problems.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I could be way off in left field here; but, as I read Ed's question (I agree it is ill-framed), I get the sense that he's trying to ask us to think of any imaginable freedom we can possibly think of and then answer the question based on that hypothetical, imaginary idea.  For example, I can imagine a human with wings and feathers like a bird; but we do not have the "freedom" to fly without the aid of machinery and contraptions.  So, when Ed gets you to admit that we aren't "free" in any way we can imagine he can either 1. then re-present the argument as "we are not free in any imaginable way" or, 2. demonstrate for webmdave's benefit that he was wrong in the other thread and we really are constrained by our limitations or whatever their little spat was about.  That's the way I read it, anyway.

[Edgarcito]

Any aspect we can imagine were your words in the other thread.  Why can’t you explain your own words.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I could be way off in left field here; but, as I read Ed's question (I agree it is ill-framed), I get the sense that he's trying to ask us to think of any imaginable freedom we can possibly think of and then answer the question based on that hypothetical, imaginary idea.  For example, I can imagine a human with wings and feathers like a bird; but we do not have the "freedom" to fly without the aid of machinery and contraptions.  So, when Ed gets you to admit that we aren't "free" in any way we can imagine he can either 1. then re-present the argument as "we are not free in any imaginable way" or, 2. demonstrate for webmdave's benefit that he was wrong in the other thread and we really are constrained by our limitations or whatever their little spat was about.  That's the way I read it, anyway.

They were his words.. ????  He knows we are bound physically.  But then he stated the aforementioned.  What was that example he was thinking of?  Are we free to be mentally absolute in some aspect?  Again, his words.

[walterpthefirst]

18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

They were his words.. ????  He knows we are bound physically.  But then he stated the aforementioned.  What was that example he was thinking of?  Are we free to be mentally absolute in some aspect?  Again, his words.

 

 

If I was talking about Romans 11 : 32 then I meant that god has spiritually bound us into a state of spiritual disobedience.

 

Because that's what the apostle Paul means.

 

So there were no physical or mental aspects involved.

 

 

I'm playing Devil's Advocate (as usual) and taking up the apostle Paul's position on the matter, even though I don't believe it or agree with it.

 

 

Now that we've established that the bondage god placed everyone in is spiritual, do you have any questions about that, Ed?

 

Would you like me to explain further?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

They were his words.. ????  He knows we are bound physically.  But then he stated the aforementioned.  What was that example he was thinking of?  Are we free to be mentally absolute in some aspect?  Again, his words.

 

40 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

No I’m done… thx

So, we are taking people's words literally, then?  Which means you're done; but you're not done, obviously.  You're still posting.  Why can't you explain your own words?  Maybe just explain what you mean to Walt so neither one of you has an excuse.  Or would that be too much of a commonsense approach?

[walterpthefirst]

What's happened here today - the misunderstanding of the KIND of bondage Paul says that we are held in - is just what I meant in my opening message.

 

There is a lot to unpack here and it is not very, very simple.

 

This is also what I meant when I said that progress will be painfully slow, with many obstacles along the way.

 

We all need to exercise patience and tolerance with each other, so that understanding prevails.

 

If something seems confusing or things get frustrating, then chill out and return later.

 

 

On that note, I have no choice but to leave my computer for a few hours, but I will return later.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

No, don't bother....

 

1) Are we bound physically, yes or no please.  A non-religious question, yes or no.

 

One very simple question at a time.  

[webmdave]

40 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

or whatever their little spat was about

 

I was being purposefully pedantic, (to be constrained implies the possibility of having those  constraints removed) in order to see if 1) Ed would show the slightest willingness to understand my pedantic point, 2) to what lengths Ed would go to defend his eccentric positions, and 3), if after an  obvious  provocation, in the spirit of Christian love he would refrain from ad hominems. 

 

This commercial break is now over. Please continue the show!  

[Edgarcito]

13 minutes ago, webmdave said:

 

I was being purposefully pedantic, (to be constrained implies the possibility of having those  constraints removed) in order to see if 1) Ed would show the slightest willingness to understand my pedantic point, 2) to what lengths Ed would go to defend his eccentric positions, and 3), if after an  obvious  provocation, in the spirit of Christian love he would refrain from ad hominems. 

 

This commercial break is now over. Please continue the show!  

Well, you got it right the first time Dave....we are constrained physically.

But then your top intellectual chimes in with, that we are free in any other aspect.  

 

So then I ask what aspect Walt.  Then he goes into some dive into Christianity and it's only in that context...then we get lost in Walt's question and answer session.

 

So if you'd like to play given you're the captain...

 

Even though we are physically constrained, are we bound mentally.  Are we capable of absolute thinking.

 

Thanks.

[Edgarcito]

And why are you chiming in after all these years Dave.  

[webmdave]

I am free to decline your inquiry. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

30 minutes ago, webmdave said:

 

I was being purposefully pedantic, (to be constrained implies the possibility of having those  constraints removed) in order to see if 1) Ed would show the slightest willingness to understand my pedantic point, 2) to what lengths Ed would go to defend his eccentric positions, and 3), if after an  obvious  provocation, in the spirit of Christian love he would refrain from ad hominems. 

 

This commercial break is now over. Please continue the show!  

 

 

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, webmdave said:

I am free to decline your inquiry. 

Free will, thx.

[Edgarcito]

Ouch that has to hurt a little lol

[walterpthefirst]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No, don't bother....

 

1) Are we bound physically, yes or no please.  A non-religious question, yes or no.

 

One very simple question at a time.  

 

 

You can't have it as simple as you want, Ed. 

 

I'm sorry, but you asked about my proposition concerning free will and that, as I've explained earlier, is based upon what the apostle Paul says in the Bible.  Because I'm playing Devil's Advocate I'm arguing from Paul's position - not my own.  His position IS a religious one.  So, if you want me to explain my proposition to you, it has to be done on his terms.  Not yours and not mine, but Paul's.

 

His position is that we are, in effect, physically bound by god because we have first been spiritually bound by him.  This is because he believed that humans are both physical and spiritual, with the spiritual ruling the physical.  And for him, a physical human body without a spirit was just a corpse.  We can see this in his own words, when he compared Adam with Jesus.

 

1 Corinthian 15 : 44 - 47.

 

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 

45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 

46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 

47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

 

In verse 45 Paul is referring back to Genesis 2 : 7.

 

Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

When god created Adam he was physically complete but just an empty shell until god breathed the spirit of life into him.  Without an animating spirit he was nothing but a corpse.  By understanding this we can see what Paul means about god putting us all into spiritual bondage.  

 

If our spirits are bound into a state of disobedience by god then our bodies, which obey the dictates of our spirits, are just as bound.  Nothing visible and nothing tangible can be seen or detected.  There are no physical chains binding us.  But we are just as bound as if there were.  

 

I hope this makes sense.  Please let me know if anything is difficult or confusing and I will try and rectify that.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.