I'm baffled by the American Evangelical Christian Right.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Gonna tax our way into education via inclusion.  Fuck me.  

Here we see a subtle example of the (white) American superiority I mentioned...

 

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

That's not a compliment ma'am....just so you understand.

...And the misogyny that often accompanies it.

[Casualfanboy16]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Here we see a subtle example of the (white) American superiority I mentioned...

 

...And the misogyny that often accompanies it.

I read this out like a nature documentary 

[Edgarcito]

32 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Here we see a subtle example of the (white) American superiority I mentioned...

 

...And the misogyny that often accompanies it.

No, wait, I thought everyone, men, women, men-women, women-men, etc., were all equal?  What did I miss in your standardless utopia.  To add, throwing money at disenfranchised youts and affirmative action didn’t seem to pan out.. Try again..

 

Everyone sing w me, “imagine there’s no heaven”… #peacelovedope

[TheRedneckProfessor]

31 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

I read this out like a nature documentary 

 

[Casualfanboy16]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

 

No idea what that trophy(?) is, but thanks?? I think??

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

49 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

..And the misogyny that often accompanies it.

 

Which is why I won't bother to address ed anymore directly. I reserve the right NOT to engage with verbally abusive people. I learned this while living in a domestic violence women's shelter. It's a cycle of abuse that bullies use: Bully/Victim/Savior. AFTER living with a CN (xitan nat'list. why make the damn word so long? I'm abbreviating it from now on). 

 

This is a 'freedom' ed would claim for himself, to NOT engage with abusive people, no? 

 

Thank you Professor 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

23 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

No idea what that trophy(?) is, but thanks?? I think??

 

And who's that guy?? Sorry, is it obvious? I'm missing something....but after trying to figure out what the fuck ed's been talking about, you know...............................

[Casualfanboy16]

10 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

And who's that guy?? Sorry, is it obvious? I'm missing something....but after trying to figure out what the fuck ed's been talking about, you know...............................

Honestly, I'm also trying figure it out. I'm just not in the mood to engage with... whatever that is he's yapping about lol. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 minute ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

Honestly, I'm also trying figure it out. I'm just not in the mood to engage with... whatever that is he's yapping about lol. 

 

I think clouding the issue/question/answer with all manner of verbal garbage, even if and when an answer actually exists somewhere in all that shit, is so far removed from the point that the point becomes lost in its entirety. Please don't hurt yourself thinking about any of that garbage; it's easier to just let them scream into the wind (or is it piss into the wind? )

 

At any rate, if the intention was to win an argument, I think he lost. 

[Casualfanboy16]

8 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

I think clouding the issue/question/answer with all manner of verbal garbage, even if and when an answer actually exists somewhere in all that shit, is so far removed from the point that the point becomes lost in its entirety. Please don't hurt yourself thinking about any of that garbage; it's easier to just let them scream into the wind (or is it piss into the wind? )

 

At any rate, if the intention was to win an argument, I think he lost. 

Yeah. Seems like it. It's not worth thinking about lol. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Part Two:

 

One of the popular hashtag/meme type presentations on social media these days is “If You Know, You Know (IYKYK). This, of course, implies that there are others who do not know, others who might see the same image and read the same caption, but who lack important inside information which prevents them from understanding the deeper meaning.

 

This is certainly the case when it comes to the conservative nationalist rhetoric often promulgated from American evangelical pulpits. Without the context of 9/11, Roe v. Wade, The Apprentice, and other specifically American events, it would be impossible for a person to understand the unspoken or implied meanings behind many of the sermons preached across the country on any given Sunday.

 

To illustrate this point, I am going to proffer a short mini-sermon here. Though I, too, will be preaching about “Inclusion,” I intend to be more obvious in my message than the subtlety Ed previously demonstrated, so as to show those truly inquisitive just how easily the word of god can be manipulated to fit a horrific authoritarian narrative.

 

____________________

 

If you have your bibles, please open to 1 Samuel 17 (I know y’all don’t have bibles so I will just tell you it’s the story of David and Goliath). Goliath had been opening daily cans of whoop-ass on the Israelites for forty days until this kid David came along and reckoned he could take him. The king tried to send David out in worldly armor but it didn’t fit. So David decided that he was just going to raw dog the bitch with nothing more than the spirit of almighty god. Well, he rared back and whacked Goliath upside the head with a stone from his slingshot and dropped his raggedy Philistine ass to the ground.

 

But I want you to pay attention to verse 40. And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine.  Verse 40 tells us that David took 5 stones from the river that morning before he battled Goliath. Now, why would he take 5 stones when it only needed one to kill Goliath?

 

If you will open your bible to 2 Samuel 21:16-22, you will find out that Goliath had 4 brothers; and once David dispatched him with such finality, he had the rest of Goliath’s family to deal with.

 

You see, in this country, we have defeated one giant: the blight of murdered babies has been eradicated from our land with the overturning of Roe v. Wade. But that hideous idea that murdering babies is okay also has 4 brothers, just like Goliath did. The evisceration of masculinity must also be defeated. The idea that men can become women must be eradicated. The idea that homosexuals, foreigners, worshippers of false gods, transvestites and other perverts should all be included in our society is a lie from the very pit of hell. And, fourthly, the idea that a woman—a woman and a librul communist—can be the President of the United States is a blasphemous offense to our god who suffers not a woman to teach or be in authority over a man. Can I get a halle-fuckin-lujah?

 

Now, we gotta get out there and defeat these other giants just like we defeated abortion. We can’t go out there with worldly armor. We gotta put on the full armor of god so that we can withstand the fiery darts of the enemy. We can’t go out there with compromise; these people can’t be reasoned with. They just gotta be stoned to death like Goliath was. god is calling us to rise up and save this nation, just like he raised David up from a shepherd boy.

 

_________________

 

This might seem like an extreme juxtaposition of scripture with fascism, especially for someone raised in a more progressive society. Bit this is precisely how the religious right in America twists the scripture to fit their agenda. It’s cherry picking on steroids.

 

Point out the moral flaws of their favored political candidate and you’ll get a dissertation on how god used Moses despite his failings. Point out the hypocrisy of fomenting violence against illegal immigrants when scripture commands that the foreigner be treated as an equal and you will hear how the pearls of god’s chosen nation should not be cast before swine.

 

There really is no coherent scriptural justification for American christian nationalism. Just a hodgepodge of twisted verses manipulated and mangled beyond all cognizant recognition. Because it is not a biblically sound doctrine; it is an authoritarian political movement using scripture to control the willing and coerce the rest.

 

These people literally (despite Pantheory’s inaccurate protestations) believe we are in the end times and god is raising America up to be a final light in the darkness before ushering in the apocalypse with the mark of the beast and Armageddon and the blood flowing up to a horse’s bridle and all the rest of it.

Toward that end, they literally believe they are justified in using any means necessary.

 

Fortunately, they are a decreasing minority in this country; and America has shown remarkable resilience in self-correction during times of extreme and unprecedented adversity.  I expect we will survive this current onslaught against our pluralistic democracy and come put even stronger and more united on the other end of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

David Attenborough.  Really, y'all?

[walterpthefirst]

9 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

See this is why I don’t answer you.  That’s not what I asked.  You’re simply a disingenuous person.  

 

No, I'm not lying.

 

This is a case of garbage in and garbage out.  I answered your question as best I could, but it was a malformed question.  That is why it seems to you that I didn't answer what you asked.  But I did my best.

 

I've created a new thread, called Romans 11 : 32 in the Den, where you and I can achieve a better understanding together.  Please join me there to continue our discussion about god binding humans and what freedoms we have.  This will naturally lead us back to the question, 'Did Adam freely disobey god in Eden?'.  Which has been a bone of contention between us for some time now.   We can work together to apply Romans 11 : 32 to Genesis to see what that means.

 

But doing that here means pulling this thread off-topic and that's not helpful.

 

So please join me in the new thread Edgarcito.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

Responding to the Redneck Prof about 1 Samuel 17.

 

 

So it seems that certain American Christians look to OT examples to justify their actions today.  If that's so, which covenant with god do these Christians think they are under?   The Covenant of the Law of Moses, which held in OT times, but which ended with the death and resurrection of Jesus?  Or the New Covenant of Christ's blood, which, unlike the Law, obtains forgiveness of sin and which guarantees adoption into the Body of Christ?  Things which the Law can never do and which it was never designed to do.

 

In the book of Galatians Paul warns them that anyone who has entered into the New Covenant of Christ's blood but who then returns to any part of the Law must then rely wholly on the Law for the justification before god.  Doing that means abandoning the blood in favour of the Law and the Law does not justify anyone in the sight of god.  Only Jesus's blood does that.

 

Therefore, any American Christians who look to anything done in OT times (an eye for an eye) as justification for their actions are committing the same error as the Galatians.  On Judgment Day Jesus' blood will be of no help to them because they turned away from it and back to the old covenant of the Law.

 

What does this mean in practical terms for how American Christians should behave today?  I'll let Jesus answer that question.

 

Matthew 5 : 38 - 48

 

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’

39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 

40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 

41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 

42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 

45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 

47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 

48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

So when it comes to the abortionists, the homosexuals, the illegal immigrants, the worshippers of false gods, the transvestites, the perverts and all the others that the Christians consider to be their enemies, here is what Jesus tells the Christians to do.

 

Love them and pray for them.  Do not resist their evil.  If they steal from you, let them.  Do not pay back their evil with evil.  If you only love your families, friends and fellow Christians, what reward will you get for doing that?  Love your enemies.

 

This means NOT seeking to draft laws against them.  This means NOT taking up guns to defend your homes against them.  This means NOT persecuting them on social media.  This means NOT carrying placards, attending rallies and joining marches against them.  This means NOT building a wall to keep them out.  This means NOT expelling them from the country as undesirables.  

 

Doing all these things because of OT examples of Israel defending itself with violence is just wrong and disobedient.  When Christians become Christians they are entering into a binding covenant with god, sanctified with Jesus' blood, not sanctified with the tablets of the Law.

 

So, if they use the Law (an eye for an eye) to justify their actions they have broken their covenant agreement with god.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Yet again, Walt, justifying belief through scripture is neither necessary nor relevant for christian nationalists.  You could quote your verses and use your logic until you're red, white, and blue in the face.  It doesn't matter.  They have their own justifications which supercede the scripture. 

 

In the case of your example, christian nationalists believe that America is under a completely new and separate covenant with god, as defined by the US Constitution.  The Constitution itself is the covenant.  And since America is under a separate covenant, they are justified in cherry picking either, both, or neither of the previous covenants to justify their actions and beliefs.

[walterpthefirst]

I take your point, Prof.

 

But in this forum I'm not quoting scripture to persuade any Christian nationalists, even if there are some present.  Nor am I looking to persuade any Christian nationalists, should there be any present.  No, I'm quoting scripture for the benefit of the Ex-Christians, the agnostics, and the sceptics in this forum.  And also for the newbies and the lurkers who are thinking about deconverting.

 

By showing how far from Jesus' teachings these nationalists have strayed and how wantonly they co-opt scripture for their own geopolitical ends I am helping others in their journey out of the darkness Christianity and into the light of reason, logic and rationality.

 

In this thread, up until the time when you started quoting from the book of Samuel I couldn't really gain any traction in my Bible-based arguments.  There were a lot of contributions from everyone about the history, politics and behaviour of the nationalists and I thank all of those who contributed.  But it was only once you brought scripture into the equation that I could make my case.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Okay.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

14 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

David Attenborough.  Really, y'all?

It's really been a long time since I saw that guy. But at least now I 'get' the joke! 

 

15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Fortunately, they are a decreasing minority in this country; and America has shown remarkable resilience in self-correction during times of extreme and unprecedented adversity.  I expect we will survive this current onslaught against our pluralistic democracy and come put even stronger and more united on the other end of it.

 

Thanks, Prof 

[Casualfanboy16]

15 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Fortunately, they are a decreasing minority in this country; and America has shown remarkable resilience in self-correction during times of extreme and unprecedented adversity.  I expect we will survive this current onslaught against our pluralistic democracy and come put even stronger and more united on the other end of it.

This makes me feel a little bit better considering for the past couple of days my parents keep talking about how America is on track to World War 3 and how we're getting closer to the end times if the dEmoCraTs/LiBeRaLs get into power!! Like, they won't stop talking about it.... they really won't stop talking about it. So, hopefully this is right. I say "hopefully" because my current state of mind is not the best and I would like to be proven wrong lol.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

12 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

n the case of your example, christian nationalists believe that America is under a completely new and separate covenant with god, as defined by the US Constitution.  The Constitution itself is the covenant.  And since America is under a separate covenant, they are justified in cherry picking either, both, or neither of the previous covenants to justify their actions and beliefs.

 

But can they READ the document? Can they READ their bibles? As I indicated above, the devaluing of education means these folks don't learn to read any of it. That's why it's so easy to cherry pick all (or none, as you said) to warp it into place for selfish ends. 

 

[Dsred19]

On 10/13/2024 at 3:05 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm going to try to do some justice to Walt's inquiry here in a two-part answer.  This may turn into two separate posts; I'm not sure.  But bear with me as I am typing on my phone and basically have only one thumb that knows where all the keys are.

 

The first part of the answer is that christian nationalism has been part of our politics and national identity since the very beginning.  It hasn't always been as prevalent as it is currently; it waxes and wanes.  But there are several prominent examples of periods in which christian "values" dominated social/political issues. 

 

American slavery is one such example; and just as there is major polarization between the "christian coalition" and Evangelicals for Harris today, there was equal polarization back then between (white) christians using the scripture to condone slavery versus christians using it to condemn the practice.

 

After The War, American expansion west of the Mighty Mississippi was driven by the ideal of Manifest Destiny, which held to the principle that it was god's will for (white) America to conquer and control all of the lands and territories "from sea to shining sea."  god had also ordained and anointed (white) America to civilize the heathen and bring him to salvation. 

 

Segregation was often justified using scripture--the same bible used to fight for civil rights.  There has often been an element of (white) American superiority involved; but not always.  The temperance/prohibition movement was mostly couched in conservative christian language,  as an example. 

 

But the current conservative christian political powder keg was first sparked in the early 1970s with the Roe versus Wade decision made by the United States Supreme Court, which provided national protection to women's rights to choose what happens to their own bodies.  While feminine health covers a range of issues from several medical disciplines, the defining issue of the religious reich for the past 50 years has been abortion.

 

Without pontificating too much, I will say that the unborn are a very easy target group for one to champion.  You literally don't have to do anything for them beyond making sure they get to be born.  After that, they're no longer your problem.  You don't have to feed them, provide shelter for them, give them clothes to wear--that all falls onto the mother who "should have kept her legs together if she didn't want the responsibility of a baby." 

 

So, as a rallying cry for the right, abortion became possibly one of the easiest tools of manipulation in political history.  And over the years, this one issue has been variously deformed, misrepresented, stretched-beyond-recognition, and twisted into a unifying force culminated in the "christian coalition," which boasts everyone from Mormons to Roman Catholics in its ranks.

 

The earliest inception of this religious right began to form in the 80s under Ronald Reagan, probably the most popular conservative president of my lifetime.  The 80s also graced us with the Satanic Panic, which introduced into mainstream consciousness two radically different concepts, somehow convoluted into some kind of weird unholy matrimony: the idea that there was a demon under every rock and the unshakeable suspicion that everything was a conspiracy by some evil cabal of unseen powers.

 

Throughout the 90s, there was a period of cooling; but, as any good metallurgist might tell you, that cooling period is when the annealing takes place, purifying and strengthening the forge.

 

Then 9/11 happened.

 

This was the moment when the current American christian nationalist movement finally put the pieces together, found its identity, and slowly began grooming its target audience.  9/11 brought all of the elements of the past several decades into sharp focus.  Conspiracies about government collusion and fear of foreign religions ruled by demonic powers masquerading as false gods steadily morphed into outright xenophobia, christian extremism, political and economic separatism... The very core of the political, social, and economic policy we see set forth in Project 2025.

 

"When you look into the abyss," Neitzsche wrote, "the abyss also looks into you."

 

The attacks of 9/11 were carried out by religious extremists from foreign nations.  People with weird ideas about god, who treated their women like chattel and their children like property.  People who wanted to control and direct every aspect of their citizens' lives, and were willing to use force, violence, and murder to achieve that goal.  "What better way to ensure that never happens here in America," the conservative thought to himself, "than to preemptively make it happen under the flag of christianity."

 

The rest really is history.  An entire generation (mine) raised up believing that there's a demon behind every tree and no one can be trusted now sees the world as a horrible place getting worse by the day.  Who'd of thunk it?  Mask mandates and vaccines?  A government conspiracy!  Universal Healthcare and free lunches for school kids?  Communism!  Sensible gun laws?  Only fascists want that!  Peaceful, legal immigrants just wanting a better life for their children?  THEY'RE EATING THE DOGS!!!

 

It really isn't very difficult for me to understand the appeal of conservative christian nationalism.  I abhor it, of course; but I've also lived on both sides of it, so I do know where it's coming from most of the time.

 

Anyway, that's the first part of the answer.  I'm for a cup of coffee and a piss before I start the second part.  So, like jesus said, "BRB!"

This is a wonderfully concise but accurate synopsis.

 

When I became a christian in the 90s, this was brewing already- the idea of America as God’s chosen nation and I was told abortion was the ONLY issue I could care about. And it was impossible to be a “true Christian” and be pro choice in any way shape or form. This was my first whiff of bullshit in Christianity that I tried to ignore that I just can’t anymore.

[Casualfanboy16]

31 minutes ago, Dsred19 said:

This is a wonderfully concise but accurate synopsis.

 

When I became a christian in the 90s, this was brewing already- the idea of America as God’s chosen nation and I was told abortion was the ONLY issue I could care about. And it was impossible to be a “true Christian” and be pro choice in any way shape or form. This was my first whiff of bullshit in Christianity that I tried to ignore that I just can’t anymore.

As someone who's more on the younger side compared to most people on the forum (21), it always interests me how Christianity, or more specifically, Christian nationalism, has evolved throughout the years. Most of which I wasn't alive for, but still interesting nonetheless.

 

Also RNP has like a way of wording shit that I wish I could have. If I were this articulate with my wording I would be so much better at expressing literally anything lol. Anyway RNP, I said it before and I'll say it again: Write a book!! (Please ) 

 

Anyway before I get sidetracked, I'm curious as to why abortion was the only issue you could care about. What about the evil homosexuals , or the demons infecting rock music and Pokémon, or the 'War on Christmas', or all the other things Christians go insane about?

 

Also, what's the whole deal with Christians being like "You never were a real Christian"? It's so dumb lol. Like???? Yes they were??? What's with all these requirements to make someone a 'true Christian'. What does that meeeeeaaaannn? 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

11 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

Also, what's the whole deal with Christians being like "You never were a real Christian"? It's so dumb lol. Like???? Yes they were??? What's with all these requirements to make someone a 'true Christian'. What does that meeeeeaaaannn? 

I think it meeeeaaaans ( ) whatever your pastor says it means. 

 

As children in Sunday school we used to sing a song about a foolish man building his house upon the sand vs. a wise man who built his house upon a rock. You know the religious connotation but what about common sense connotation?? 

[mwc]

On 10/10/2024 at 3:26 PM, walterpthefirst said:

The beliefs I wish to focus on are both religious and political in nature.  Here are some of them.

 

·        A deep-seated belief in personal rights, freedoms, and liberties

·        A deep-seated belief in the authority of the Bible

·        A deep-seated belief in family values

 

If the three beliefs listed above can be called positive ones, then on the flip side of the same evangelical Christian coin there are what could be called negative beliefs.

 

*        A deep-seated mistrust of centralized authority and government

*       A complete rejection of autocracy or absolute rule

*       An abhorrence of anything that would unnecessarily constrain personal freedom against the wishes of the individual 

 

     When I was on the right I can tell you I held all these beliefs.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 3:26 PM, walterpthefirst said:

        

But when it comes to what these Christians expect to find in heaven, do they really believe that these dearly-held Earthly freedoms will be respected and upheld there?  That heaven will be a place where they can freely can speak their mind, can freely hold their own opinions and where they are free to live as they choose?  The answers to all of these questions depend on what the Bible has to say about freedom. 

     Heaven is a perfect place.  And before you even get there you are in alignment with god in all things, through the spirit, so you wouldn't even have the sort of friction you mention here.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 3:26 PM, walterpthefirst said:

Do they really fail to understand that the personal freedoms and liberties that they hold so dear in this life will be meaningless in heaven?

     Yes.  This does not really occur to anyone.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 3:26 PM, walterpthefirst said:

In heaven there is only one opinion that counts - God’s.  Only one moral viewpoint that counts – God’s.  Only one judgement that counts – God’s.  Nobody, not angels or men, have the right or the freedom to hold any other opinion, viewpoint, or judgment than God’s.  This is absolute and autocratic rule by an all-powerful, all-knowing authority, the ultimate opposite of the individual, personal freedoms, and liberties that American Christians hold so dear.

     As I said, Heaven is presumed to be perfect as is god.  The spirit aligns you to god's will as it works in you here on Earth.  When you go to Heaven you are then "perfect" so there is no friction.  No thoughts, actions or desires that are imperfect.  If this was going to be the case then you would not have went to Heaven to start with.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 3:26 PM, walterpthefirst said:

As I said at the start, I am baffled by why so many American Christians haven’t figured out, by reading the Bible, that their deeply-cherished earthly freedoms will not be honoured or upheld in heaven.  Why they seem to want to throw all of their personal freedoms away, in favour of becoming a Jesus clone and living forever as a same-thinking drone dedicated to bowing and scraping at the feet of the ultimate absolute autocrat.

 

So, perhaps the American members of this forum could explain this mystery to me?

     You resist the things of this world to gain the things of the next world.  So "freedom," as you noticed is simply to avoid becoming enslaved to the ways of this world which are presumed to be, in one way or another, under the control of Satan, in order to gain perfection.  That includes the streets of gold, the mansion (or room in the mansion), never having any sort of pain or suffering and so on.

 

     Personally, I never figured out how one could go to heaven and be happy if anyone they cared for, at all, didn't make it.  But that never mattered to people I asked.  They just sort of hand-waived it away by saying god would take care of it.  I guess that means god would just make you not care which I don't know where that comes from and doesn't actually address the problem but if all you care about is not feeling pain then it makes more sense.  And I feel that most people just don't want to feel any sort of pain and the general concept of heaven solves that no matter how it's accomplished.

 

          mwc

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, mwc said:

     When I was on the right I can tell you I held all these beliefs.

 

     Heaven is a perfect place.  And before you even get there you are in alignment with god in all things, through the spirit, so you wouldn't even have the sort of friction you mention here.

 

     Yes.  This does not really occur to anyone.

 

     As I said, Heaven is presumed to be perfect as is god.  The spirit aligns you to god's will as it works in you here on Earth.  When you go to Heaven you are then "perfect" so there is no friction.  No thoughts, actions or desires that are imperfect.  If this was going to be the case then you would not have went to Heaven to start with.

 

     You resist the things of this world to gain the things of the next world.  So "freedom," as you noticed is simply to avoid becoming enslaved to the ways of this world which are presumed to be, in one way or another, under the control of Satan, in order to gain perfection.  That includes the streets of gold, the mansion (or room in the mansion), never having any sort of pain or suffering and so on.

 

     Personally, I never figured out how one could go to heaven and be happy if anyone they cared for, at all, didn't make it.  But that never mattered to people I asked.  They just sort of hand-waived it away by saying god would take care of it.  I guess that means god would just make you not care which I don't know where that comes from and doesn't actually address the problem but if all you care about is not feeling pain then it makes more sense.  And I feel that most people just don't want to feel any sort of pain and the general concept of heaven solves that no matter how it's accomplished.

 

          mwc

 

 

Yes, I covered the aligning with the spirit you speak of, mwc.

 

Believers are assimilated into the collective and lose their individuality, become like-thinking drones who's sole function is to worship, praise and adore god.