I'm baffled by the American Evangelical Christian Right.

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Thanks.  That's a good point.  I'm just amazed that these people can't classify me other than fundamental Chrisitan.  When you essentially state the same point, much more eloquently mind you, it's accepted.  But I'm the evil right.  Speaking of blind Dave....

 

Then tell us what kind of Christian you are by answering our questions.

[Edgarcito]

Just now, walterpthefirst said:

 

That's right, Pantheory.

 

I proposed this thread to find out what certain American Christians think AND the Biblical basis for their thinking.  I had hoped that the resident American Christian in this forum would help me understand these things.  But as the Prof and Webmdave found out, he won't play ball.

 

And as I found out he won't answer any of my questions because he somehow knows my thinking and/or knows in advance where this thread is headed.  

 

Crithin8 kindly offered to help, but he's got no experience of the kind of American Christian I'm interested in.  So were currently going nowhere.

 

Perhaps said Christian will engage with moxieflux66, seeing as she's asked him a direct question?

 

 

You of all people Walter KNOW there is no answer.  Faith IS THE ULTIMATE position of the Bible and you said faith was not part of the discussion.  Your ultimate goal goofball was to make the point that God bound humanity.  And for lack of a better explanation, that damn sure seems to be the case given we can't unbind ourselves, you recon?  You're so smart.... but not really and a little evil to boot.  Take a hike.  Start an insightful discussion instead.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

You of all people Walter KNOW there is no answer.  Faith IS THE ULTIMATE position of the Bible and you said faith was not part of the discussion.  Your ultimate goal goofball was to make the point that God bound humanity.  And for lack of a better explanation, that damn sure seems to be the case given we can't unbind ourselves, you recon?  You're so smart.... but not really and a little evil to boot.  Take a hike.  Start an insightful discussion instead.

 

Me, the Englishman and foreigner, with no direct experience of American Christianity, know the answer?

 

My, my you DO know a lot about me without even having met me.

 

You also seem to know my thoughts before I think them.

 

 

So who's being the unhelpful, obstructive roadblock to real answers and real progress in this thread?

[walterpthefirst]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You of all people Walter KNOW there is no answer.  Faith IS THE ULTIMATE position of the Bible and you said faith was not part of the discussion.  Your ultimate goal goofball was to make the point that God bound humanity.  And for lack of a better explanation, that damn sure seems to be the case given we can't unbind ourselves, you recon?  You're so smart.... but not really and a little evil to boot.  Take a hike.  Start an insightful discussion instead.

 

Yes, but faith doesn't just pop into existence out of nowhere.

 

It begins with a holy book in all religions.

 

Your faith MUST be based upon something and if its not the Bible, then what?

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

As I said before in my word salad.

As your current word salad was indecipherable, I'll have to wait until you say something more clear, sorry. I was left thinking how similar you sound to others who are currently occupying too much of the airwaves. Saying a lot without saying anything....while not answering my direct question either. 

How do I know this method? MY SISTER. I believe I pointed this out to you when I first arrived here...

[walterpthefirst]

And if we misclassify you as fundie that would probably be because you keep your beliefs a mystery.

 

Answering our questions would solve the problem of misclassification.

 

So, are you going to make the problem go away by directly answering our questions?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'm going to try to do some justice to Walt's inquiry here in a two-part answer.  This may turn into two separate posts; I'm not sure.  But bear with me as I am typing on my phone and basically have only one thumb that knows where all the keys are.

 

The first part of the answer is that christian nationalism has been part of our politics and national identity since the very beginning.  It hasn't always been as prevalent as it is currently; it waxes and wanes.  But there are several prominent examples of periods in which christian "values" dominated social/political issues. 

 

American slavery is one such example; and just as there is major polarization between the "christian coalition" and Evangelicals for Harris today, there was equal polarization back then between (white) christians using the scripture to condone slavery versus christians using it to condemn the practice.

 

After The War, American expansion west of the Mighty Mississippi was driven by the ideal of Manifest Destiny, which held to the principle that it was god's will for (white) America to conquer and control all of the lands and territories "from sea to shining sea."  god had also ordained and anointed (white) America to civilize the heathen and bring him to salvation. 

 

Segregation was often justified using scripture--the same bible used to fight for civil rights.  There has often been an element of (white) American superiority involved; but not always.  The temperance/prohibition movement was mostly couched in conservative christian language,  as an example. 

 

But the current conservative christian political powder keg was first sparked in the early 1970s with the Roe versus Wade decision made by the United States Supreme Court, which provided national protection to women's rights to choose what happens to their own bodies.  While feminine health covers a range of issues from several medical disciplines, the defining issue of the religious reich for the past 50 years has been abortion.

 

Without pontificating too much, I will say that the unborn are a very easy target group for one to champion.  You literally don't have to do anything for them beyond making sure they get to be born.  After that, they're no longer your problem.  You don't have to feed them, provide shelter for them, give them clothes to wear--that all falls onto the mother who "should have kept her legs together if she didn't want the responsibility of a baby." 

 

So, as a rallying cry for the right, abortion became possibly one of the easiest tools of manipulation in political history.  And over the years, this one issue has been variously deformed, misrepresented, stretched-beyond-recognition, and twisted into a unifying force culminated in the "christian coalition," which boasts everyone from Mormons to Roman Catholics in its ranks.

 

The earliest inception of this religious right began to form in the 80s under Ronald Reagan, probably the most popular conservative president of my lifetime.  The 80s also graced us with the Satanic Panic, which introduced into mainstream consciousness two radically different concepts, somehow convoluted into some kind of weird unholy matrimony: the idea that there was a demon under every rock and the unshakeable suspicion that everything was a conspiracy by some evil cabal of unseen powers.

 

Throughout the 90s, there was a period of cooling; but, as any good metallurgist might tell you, that cooling period is when the annealing takes place, purifying and strengthening the forge.

 

Then 9/11 happened.

 

This was the moment when the current American christian nationalist movement finally put the pieces together, found its identity, and slowly began grooming its target audience.  9/11 brought all of the elements of the past several decades into sharp focus.  Conspiracies about government collusion and fear of foreign religions ruled by demonic powers masquerading as false gods steadily morphed into outright xenophobia, christian extremism, political and economic separatism... The very core of the political, social, and economic policy we see set forth in Project 2025.

 

"When you look into the abyss," Neitzsche wrote, "the abyss also looks into you."

 

The attacks of 9/11 were carried out by religious extremists from foreign nations.  People with weird ideas about god, who treated their women like chattel and their children like property.  People who wanted to control and direct every aspect of their citizens' lives, and were willing to use force, violence, and murder to achieve that goal.  "What better way to ensure that never happens here in America," the conservative thought to himself, "than to preemptively make it happen under the flag of christianity."

 

The rest really is history.  An entire generation (mine) raised up believing that there's a demon behind every tree and no one can be trusted now sees the world as a horrible place getting worse by the day.  Who'd of thunk it?  Mask mandates and vaccines?  A government conspiracy!  Universal Healthcare and free lunches for school kids?  Communism!  Sensible gun laws?  Only fascists want that!  Peaceful, legal immigrants just wanting a better life for their children?  THEY'RE EATING THE DOGS!!!

 

It really isn't very difficult for me to understand the appeal of conservative christian nationalism.  I abhor it, of course; but I've also lived on both sides of it, so I do know where it's coming from most of the time.

 

Anyway, that's the first part of the answer.  I'm for a cup of coffee and a piss before I start the second part.  So, like jesus said, "BRB!"

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

As your current word salad was indecipherable, I'll have to wait until you say something more clear, sorry. I was left thinking how similar you sound to others who are currently occupying too much of the airwaves. Saying a lot without saying anything....while not answering my direct question either. 

How do I know this method? MY SISTER. I believe I pointed this out to you when I first arrived here...

I'm sorry you don't understand...that's not my issue.  Thx...

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm sorry you don't understand...that's not my issue.  Thx...

 

The simplest answer to these difficulties in communication is for you to give direct answers to our questions.

[☆ pantheory ☆]

19 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

 

 

According to the Pew Research Center, 73% of adults agree that religion should be kept separate from government policies. 

 

How Jefferson and Madison’s partnership shaped America’s separation of church and state - Alternet.org

 

We should stick to this, IMO. 

 

Yes, I agree but I wish the US constitution had more clarity on the matter of the separation of church and state.

 

During their political campaigns three US presidents were accused of being atheists by their opponents because they didn't regularly go to church, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, and William Howard Taft. These accusations did not hurt any of them however since they all won their elections despite atheistic accusations.

 

Jefferson was not an atheist concerning many of his statements, but did believe that God did not interfere with the affairs of man, and said that he did not pray.

 

Before his political days, Lincoln made statements that he did not believe in organized religion, and some speculated that he was not a Christian, but was probably a theist.

 

Taft was a Unitarian, one who believes in God, but not the divinity of Jesus. He claimed this was also the belief of Both Jefferson and Lincoln.

---------------------------------------

 

Changing horses:  Following the First World War the leading General and new president of Turkey was Ataturk. This followed their loss as the Ottoman Empire, but their win concerning their independence from Brittan. They made many very important treaties and the writing of the Turkish constitution. In the constitution are the clearest words of any major country concerning the separation of church and state. These changes and wording of the constitutions promoted by their new, fair-haired, blue eyed president Kemal Ataturk. He is viewed as their founding father and his picture is on their money now like George Washington of the US.

 

One cannot wear religious garb in public or religious symbols such as a Christian cross or the Moslem crescent moon and star excepting where it can't be seen. For two years following the war they had open borders with Greece so that Moslems could go to Turkey, and Christians could freely go to Greece from Turkey. This eliminated a lot of religious strife in both countries following the first world war. Although their flag portrays the crescent moon and star of their religion, their constitution does not allow public discussions, proselytizing,  or displays of religion. Large cities do not allow religious dress or public prayer; there are designated areas for this.

 

They do allow towers where a megaphone can be used to announce prayer time, but a fee must be paid to the city for its use. Today microphones can be used, or recordings played to announce prayer time, 5 times a day.

 

The point to all of this is that their constitution has the clearest possible words used to define the complete separations of church and state, although like in the US, a number of factions try to get around these restrictions at least to some extent. But they have always been unsuccessful to date.

 

[Edgarcito]

Just now, walterpthefirst said:

 

The simplest answer to these difficulties in communication is for you to give direct answers to out questions.

No, I don't write that poorly where it's lost.  I'm not going to take the time.  Thanks.  You, the Prof, Pan always seem to get my point...

[walterpthefirst]

Hey Moxieflux66!

 

 

Seeing as you don't understand Ed's word salad and seeing that this problem isn't his issue, why don't you just ask him some simple and direct questions?

 

Surely there can't be any reason why he can't answer those?

 

 

Walter.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

Hey Moxieflux66!

 

 

Seeing as you don't understand Ed's word salad and seeing that this problem isn't his issue, why don't you just ask him some simple and direct questions?

 

Surely there can't be any reason why he can't answer those?

 

 

Walter.

Geez Walter, I thought I did try that but yeah, it's not his problem.............

[walterpthefirst]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

No, I don't write that poorly where it's lost.  I'm not going to take the time.  Thanks.  You, the Prof, Pan always seem to get my point...

 

Not this time.

 

Perhaps if you answered our questions, we would?

 

Or is this your final answer?

 

[Edgarcito]

33 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Yes they do. My remaining family is part of them. I also lived in a town of 2,000 in a rural county that voted for 45. 

They're an odd bunch, make up rules as they go along and then spread them among the hive like honey. The reason they're so gullible, imo, is because thanks to their devaluing education, a large part of this 'movement' is illiterate; they have to rely on someone they trust to spell it out for them. 

And who do they trust? 

Are you crazy?  The entire movement of the left is to dumb down the population where they have no choice but to be handed provision.  And you somehow blame the religious right???  You seriously believe that more legislation and taxation will improve the conditions you are witnessing?  Is that historical?  mindblown faceplant.  I digress.  But by all means ma'am vote for more legislation and taxation......freedom.  Wow, just wow.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Are you crazy?  The entire movement of the left is to dumb down the population where they have no choice but to be handed provision.  And you somehow blame the religious right???  You seriously believe that more legislation and taxation will improve the conditions you are witnessing?  Is that historical?  mindblown faceplant.  I digress.  But by all means ma'am vote for more legislation and taxation......freedom.  Wow, just wow.

 

Ok, wait. Then you ARE a christian nationalist? Is this the million dollar answer I've waited for all day?? 

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

Ok, wait. Then you ARE a christian nationalist? Is this the million dollar answer I've waited for all day?? 

No, I'm a businessman that started mowing lawns at 12 and started working at 13.  Lived by myself at 15 and have been learning and contributing ever since.  As my dear grandmother that never took anything from the damn government except nation protection would probably allow at this time.....please hush.  

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

No

 

That's all you needed to say. The rest is superfluous. 

Unfortunately I've run out of social budget and will have to let you get back to arguing with Walter. 

Bye! 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

That's all you needed to say. The rest is superfluous. 

Unfortunately I've run out of social budget and will have to let you get back to arguing with Walter. 

Bye! 

"Social budget"....more freedom... need I say more.  

[Edgarcito]

37 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm going to try to do some justice to Walt's inquiry here in a two-part answer.  This may turn into two separate posts; I'm not sure.  But bear with me as I am typing on my phone and basically have only one thumb that knows where all the keys are.

 

The first part of the answer is that christian nationalism has been part of our politics and national identity since the very beginning.  It hasn't always been as prevalent as it is currently; it waxes and wanes.  But there are several prominent examples of periods in which christian "values" dominated social/political issues. 

 

American slavery is one such example; and just as there is major polarization between the "christian coalition" and Evangelicals for Harris today, there was equal polarization back then between (white) christians using the scripture to condone slavery versus christians using it to condemn the practice.

 

After The War, American expansion west of the Mighty Mississippi was driven by the ideal of Manifest Destiny, which held to the principle that it was god's will for (white) America to conquer and control all of the lands and territories "from sea to shining sea."  god had also ordained and anointed (white) America to civilize the heathen and bring him to salvation. 

 

Segregation was often justified using scripture--the same bible used to fight for civil rights.  There has often been an element of (white) American superiority involved; but not always.  The temperance/prohibition movement was mostly couched in conservative christian language,  as an example. 

 

But the current conservative christian political powder keg was first sparked in the early 1970s with the Roe versus Wade decision made by the United States Supreme Court, which provided national protection to women's rights to choose what happens to their own bodies.  While feminine health covers a range of issues from several medical disciplines, the defining issue of the religious reich for the past 50 years has been abortion.

 

Without pontificating too much, I will say that the unborn are a very easy target group for one to champion.  You literally don't have to do anything for them beyond making sure they get to be born.  After that, they're no longer your problem.  You don't have to feed them, provide shelter for them, give them clothes to wear--that all falls onto the mother who "should have kept her legs together if she didn't want the responsibility of a baby." 

 

So, as a rallying cry for the right, abortion became possibly one of the easiest tools of manipulation in political history.  And over the years, this one issue has been variously deformed, misrepresented, stretched-beyond-recognition, and twisted into a unifying force culminated in the "christian coalition," which boasts everyone from Mormons to Roman Catholics in its ranks.

 

The earliest inception of this religious right began to form in the 80s under Ronald Reagan, probably the most popular conservative president of my lifetime.  The 80s also graced us with the Satanic Panic, which introduced into mainstream consciousness two radically different concepts, somehow convoluted into some kind of weird unholy matrimony: the idea that there was a demon under every rock and the unshakeable suspicion that everything was a conspiracy by some evil cabal of unseen powers.

 

Throughout the 90s, there was a period of cooling; but, as any good metallurgist might tell you, that cooling period is when the annealing takes place, purifying and strengthening the forge.

 

Then 9/11 happened.

 

This was the moment when the current American christian nationalist movement finally put the pieces together, found its identity, and slowly began grooming its target audience.  9/11 brought all of the elements of the past several decades into sharp focus.  Conspiracies about government collusion and fear of foreign religions ruled by demonic powers masquerading as false gods steadily morphed into outright xenophobia, christian extremism, political and economic separatism... The very core of the political, social, and economic policy we see set forth in Project 2025.

 

"When you look into the abyss," Neitzsche wrote, "the abyss also looks into you."

 

The attacks of 9/11 were carried out by religious extremists from foreign nations.  People with weird ideas about god, who treated their women like chattel and their children like property.  People who wanted to control and direct every aspect of their citizens' lives, and were willing to use force, violence, and murder to achieve that goal.  "What better way to ensure that never happens here in America," the conservative thought to himself, "than to preemptively make it happen under the flag of christianity."

 

The rest really is history.  An entire generation (mine) raised up believing that there's a demon behind every tree and no one can be trusted now sees the world as a horrible place getting worse by the day.  Who'd of thunk it?  Mask mandates and vaccines?  A government conspiracy!  Universal Healthcare and free lunches for school kids?  Communism!  Sensible gun laws?  Only fascists want that!  Peaceful, legal immigrants just wanting a better life for their children?  THEY'RE EATING THE DOGS!!!

 

It really isn't very difficult for me to understand the appeal of conservative christian nationalism.  I abhor it, of course; but I've also lived on both sides of it, so I do know where it's coming from most of the time.

 

Anyway, that's the first part of the answer.  I'm for a cup of coffee and a piss before I start the second part.  So, like jesus said, "BRB!"

Thanks, + 1

[Edgarcito]

58 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Yes, but faith doesn't just pop into existence out of nowhere.

 

It begins with a holy book in all religions.

 

Your faith MUST be based upon something and if its not the Bible, then what?

 

 

 

 

 

Let's follow up on this.  Your contention is that God bound humanity in the Bible.  The direct question to you is are we free in any aspect we may imagine and does it make that Biblical proposition true or false.  Very very very simple direct questions to you sir.  Please respond.

[Edgarcito]

49 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

That's all you needed to say. The rest is superfluous. 

Unfortunately I've run out of social budget and will have to let you get back to arguing with Walter. 

Bye! 

No and no it's not superfluous in that experience is education that provides for freedom for those with the experience to grow their own food or provide a mechanism, or fix a broken mechanism, without the help of the damn government that tells you the way you are to grow and mechanize... and then taxes you for their program that tells you where you will reside in the process is ABSOULTELY DEVOID of freedom.  And if you will listen to those folks just ONE TIME what you will hear is how they want to "help you" with another program.  Gonna get your fair share by taxing those with too much.  Gonna tax our way into education via inclusion.  Fuck me.  The level of stupidity to believe that is viable must be a freedom in its own sense.  That's not a compliment ma'am....just so you understand.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Let's follow up on this.  Your contention is that God bound humanity in the Bible.  The direct question to you is are we free in any aspect we may imagine and does it make that Biblical proposition true or false.  Very very very simple direct questions to you sir.  Please respond.

 

 

I will respond, Edgarcito.

 

 

Here is the what the Bible says.

 

Romans 11 : 32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

It is my contention that a Bible-believing Christian who accepts that the Bible is true must therefore also accept what Romans 11 : 32 plainly says - that god created all of us unable to obey him. 

 

For that Christian the proposition is true.  Because they believe that the Bible is true.

 

This is the proposition, based upon scripture, that must be true if the Bible is taken to be true.

 

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

3 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

Yes they do. My remaining family is part of them. I also lived in a town of 2,000 in a rural county that voted for 45. 

They're an odd bunch, make up rules as they go along and then spread them among the hive like honey. The reason they're so gullible, imo, is because thanks to their devaluing education, a large part of this 'movement' is illiterate; they have to rely on someone they trust to spell it out for them. 

And who do they trust? 

 

And one more thing. Meth, fentanyl, heroin and alcohol are in rampant use. I witnessed several deaths from these substance abuses..........from so called xtians. 

 

They're always pretty pissed off...for people that supposedly have the 'love of god' in them. Like somebody else I can think of.... 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

I will respond, Edgarcito.

 

 

Here is the what the Bible says.

 

Romans 11 : 32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

It is my contention that a Bible-believing Christian who accepts that the Bible is true must therefore also accept what Romans 11 : 32 plainly says - that god created all of us unable to obey him. 

 

For that Christian the proposition is true.  Because they believe that the Bible is true.

 

This is the proposition, based upon scripture, that must be true if the Bible is taken to be true.

 

 

 

See this is why I don’t answer you.  That’s not what I asked.  You’re simply a disingenuous person.