I'm baffled by the American Evangelical Christian Right.

[walterpthefirst]

I can't succinctly respond to the latest input from Dsred19, Citsonga and Pantheory because too much ground is covered in these three posts.  However, one of my aims of this thread was to try and better understand the beliefs of Right-leaning Evangelical American Christians in the context of the Bible.  Specifically, what doctrines and what passages underpin their beliefs.

 

What I am trying to discover and understand here is, in essence, no different to trying to understand the beliefs of any Christian denomination, sect or cult.  Those groups of Christians will have Biblical reasons for believing what they do and most of them, when asked, can point to the passages of scripture that define their beliefs.  Or. at least, they should be able to.

 

In a similar way, the members of other religions can point to the key passages in their holy books as justification for what they believe.  Or, at least they should be able to.

 

The answering of questions about one's holy book is not something unusual or unexpected.  Nor is it even a form of persecution by sceptics and unbelievers.  Such questioning about Christianity and the Bible has gone on for centuries.  The discipline of Apologetics has even been developed specifically to supply these answers.  The asking and (hopefully) answering of such questions is the backbone of dialogue, here in this forum.  None of this is new.

 

So, the answers I am looking for in this thread should be forthcoming.  

 

But there have been problems.

 

The input given by the non-Christians in this thread explain something of why American Christians believe what they do, but those replies deal with more with aspects of politics and of human psychology.  That's fine.  I accept that these things cannot be disentangled from American Christian consciousness and that they play an important role in that belief system. 

 

As a foreigner, perhaps my understanding of what constitutes Right-leaning evangelical American Christianity is faulty?  Maybe it would help if I focused specifically on just one aspect of the raft of beliefs that make up the beliefs of this grouping?

 

I am open to ideas as to how to take this thread forward so that I can further my understanding of these Christians believe what they do.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

 

 

[Crithin8]

I’m going ague the other side: 

 

The Bible is the best set of instructions on how to live life that we have. It was inspired by God for our benefit as God has our best intentions in mind. God’s kingdom is not of this world but we have an obligation to be involved in the voting process of this country that we live in as citizens. It’s not that the political candidate represents the kingdom of God but it’s which candidate will most likely leave us alone to practice our faith and/ or will most protect the values that we hold as true to our beliefs. We hold to the belief that started this nation of a social contract that relinquishes certain freedoms as to more fully enjoy the freedoms that remain, in this life and the next. Our God is the God of all Christian denominations and as such we collectively do what is best to protect our way of life. 

 

That’s the best I have. It annoys me to write ‘we’ so many times but it is what I have observed as the status quo of religious persuasion. 

 

What I’ve noticed is both sides want to live their life in peace and the fringes of both sides are publicized to be used to alienate voter bases as a tool for political positioning. IMO

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

 

 

 

5 hours ago, pantheory said:

A would guess that 85% of Americans believe in the separation of church and state.

 

According to the Pew Research Center, 73% of adults agree that religion should be kept separate from government policies. 

 

How Jefferson and Madison’s partnership shaped America’s separation of church and state - Alternet.org

 

We should stick to this, IMO. 

[webmdave]

Long read, but may be of interest here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumpism#Christian_Trumpism

[walterpthefirst]

9 hours ago, Crithin8 said:

I’m going ague the other side: 

 

The Bible is the best set of instructions on how to live life that we have. It was inspired by God for our benefit as God has our best intentions in mind. God’s kingdom is not of this world but we have an obligation to be involved in the voting process of this country that we live in as citizens. It’s not that the political candidate represents the kingdom of God but it’s which candidate will most likely leave us alone to practice our faith and/ or will most protect the values that we hold as true to our beliefs. We hold to the belief that started this nation of a social contract that relinquishes certain freedoms as to more fully enjoy the freedoms that remain, in this life and the next. Our God is the God of all Christian denominations and as such we collectively do what is best to protect our way of life. 

 

That’s the best I have. It annoys me to write ‘we’ so many times but it is what I have observed as the status quo of religious persuasion. 

 

What I’ve noticed is both sides want to live their life in peace and the fringes of both sides are publicized to be used to alienate voter bases as a tool for political positioning. IMO

 

 

This is helpful, Crithin8.  You taking the position of Devil's Advocate and arguing the other side.

 

If you would be so good as to maintain that role, can I put questions to you about your Biblical beliefs?

 

Would you be prepared to be a surrogate evangelical American Christian, for the sake of this thread?

 

Thank you,

 

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[webmdave]

Attached is the written testimony of Andrew L. Seidel of the Freedom From Religion Foundation on the role Christian Nationalism played in the lead up to and during the attack of January 6th. 

Delivered to the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol,  U.S. House of Representatives on March 18, 2022: GPO-J6-DOC-CTRL0000062431 (1).pdf

[Crithin8]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

This is helpful, Crithin8.  You taking the position of Devil's Advocate and arguing the other side.

 

If you would be so good as to maintain that role, can I put questions to you about your Biblical beliefs?

 

Would you be prepared to be a surrogate evangelical American Christian, for the sake of this thread?

 

Thank you,

 

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

Writers of novels fully develop their characters. With that in mind I can present a fictional character for an interview. 
 

Would you in a sentence or two summarize the topic?

[walterpthefirst]

27 minutes ago, Crithin8 said:

Writers of novels fully develop their characters. With that in mind I can present a fictional character for an interview. 
 

Would you in a sentence or two summarize the topic?

 

Thanks Crithin8.

 

 

Unfortunately, even though we have a regular member of this forum who is an American Christian, they steadfastly refuse to engage with us in this thread in any kind of honest, open and helpful way.   And so, with you arguing the other side, I saw the opportunity for this thread to move forward without them.  Now that you have agreed to take on the persona of just such a person, perhaps we can at last get some straight answers to simple questions.

 

Ok then, on to the specifics of the topic.

 

On the assumption that you, the American Christian, are a gun-owning member of the NRA who is prepared to use their weapon to protect their family, what Biblical justification do you have for using violence and for taking another person's  life?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Crithin8]

21 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Thanks Crithin8.

 

 

Unfortunately, even though we have a regular member of this forum who is an American Christian, they steadfastly refuse to engage with us in this thread in any kind of honest, open and helpful way.   And so, with you arguing the other side, I saw the opportunity for this thread to move forward without them.  Now that you have agreed to take on the persona of just such a person, perhaps we can at last get some straight answers to simple questions.

 

Ok then, on to the specifics of the topic.

 

On the assumption that you, the American Christian, are a gun-owning member of the NRA who is prepared to use their weapon to protect their family, what Biblical justification do you have for using violence and for taking another person's  life?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Uncle Jay, “The way it’s been explained to me is that there is religious law and civil law. Your question is more about civil law I think. I do remember one time Jesus told some disciples to carry a sword. But in another part said not to live by the sword. I keep the rifle in the truck for the coyotes during calving season. Don’t think I’ll ever need it to defend myself around these parts. Stopped supporting the NRA as they were not using their funds to support cases of gun owners in court. At least that one fellow I heard about.”

[walterpthefirst]

38 minutes ago, Crithin8 said:

Uncle Jay, “The way it’s been explained to me is that there is religious law and civil law. Your question is more about civil law I think. I do remember one time Jesus told some disciples to carry a sword. But in another part said not to live by the sword. I keep the rifle in the truck for the coyotes during calving season. Don’t think I’ll ever need it to defend myself around these parts. Stopped supporting the NRA as they were not using their funds to support cases of gun owners in court. At least that one fellow I heard about.”

 

 

Ok, so there are religious and civil laws in the Bible?

 

Chapter and verse please.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[☆ pantheory ☆]

15 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

I can't succinctly respond to the latest input from Dsred19, Citsonga and Pantheory because too much ground is covered in these three posts.  However, one of my aims of this thread was to try and better understand the beliefs of Right-leaning Evangelical American Christians in the context of the Bible.  Specifically, what doctrines and what passages underpin their beliefs.

 

What I am trying to discover and understand here is, in essence, no different to trying to understand the beliefs of any Christian denomination, sect or cult.  Those groups of Christians will have Biblical reasons for believing what they do and most of them, when asked, can point to the passages of scripture that define their beliefs.  Or. at least, they should be able to.

 

In a similar way, the members of other religions can point to the key passages in their holy books as justification for what they believe.  Or, at least they should be able to.

 

The answering of questions about one's holy book is not something unusual or unexpected.  Nor is it even a form of persecution by sceptics and unbelievers.  Such questioning about Christianity and the Bible has gone on for centuries.  The discipline of Apologetics has even been developed specifically to supply these answers.  The asking and (hopefully) answering of such questions is the backbone of dialogue, here in this forum.  None of this is new.

 

So, the answers I am looking for in this thread should be forthcoming.  

 

But there have been problems.

 

The input given by the non-Christians in this thread explain something of why American Christians believe what they do, but those replies deal with more with aspects of politics and of human psychology.  That's fine.  I accept that these things cannot be disentangled from American Christian consciousness and that they play an important role in that belief system. 

 

As a foreigner, perhaps my understanding of what constitutes Right-leaning evangelical American Christianity is faulty?  Maybe it would help if I focused specifically on just one aspect of the raft of beliefs that make up the beliefs of this grouping?

 

I am open to ideas as to how to take this thread forward so that I can further my understanding of these Christians believe what they do.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter. 

 

 

 

Walther, You are thinking literally. Only the leaders of such beliefs are literal concerning the Bible. Maybe 99% of the others are just playing follow-the-leaders.

 

Fundamentalist Christian leaders also vary greatly in their beliefs from one denomination to another. So one could not point out what literal passages or interpretations of the Bible they believe they are following unless they explicitly state them, which is very rare for such "leaders."  Like politicians,  they need "wiggle-room" in their assertions to maintain leadership.

[Crithin8]

56 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

Ok, so there are religious and civil laws in the Bible?

 

Chapter and verse please.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Uncle Jay, “I think there is a website called Blue letter Bible that my pastor uses to look things up. I din’t know how to use it.  First time I tried to use the computer I typed ‘on’ and it didn’t come on. Took about ten years before I tried again. So I’m pencil typing and forgive me if I don’t look it up. I’m no Bible verse and chapter quoter. Just a simple farmer. I remember Jesus saying give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Guess that’s civil. Also Paul saying something about respecting government, suppose that’s civil. What I know about our country is that many philosophies were referenced when it was formed. So the question was by what right do I have to take a life? First the right given to me by law. Can’t break that or I’m not following the Bible. Biblical rights to take a life? Can’t think of any. The young bucks with the NRA stickers on their diesel trucks may think of something. If someone was to break in my door in the middle of the night I’d take care of my family first. But the thought of violence bothers me. I’d rather pray that it never happens than pray for what follow afterwards.”

[walterpthefirst]

52 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

Walther, You are thinking literally. Only the leaders of such beliefs are literal concerning the Bible. Maybe 99% of the others are just playing follow-the-leaders.

 

Fundamentalist Christian leaders also vary greatly in their beliefs from one denomination to another. So one could not point out what literal passages or interpretations of the Bible they believe they are following unless they explicitly state them, which is very rare for such "leaders."  Like politicians,  they need "wiggle-room" in their assertions to maintain leadership.

 

I'm sorry Pantheory, but it was my understanding that millions of American Christians believe in a literal 6 day creation.  That they also believe in a literal, global flood that lasted forty days and that only eight people survived it.  That the Red Sea literally parted and stood up like a wall to let the Israelites through and then drown the Egyptians.

 

And when it comes to the New Testament these same Christians literally believe that Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine and raised Lazarus from the dead.  They literally believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, that he was literally raised from the dead and that he literally ascended into heaven in the full view of his disciples.

 

Its also my understanding that these millions of American Christians believe these things to be literally true, historical and factual because they are written in the Bible.

 

Are these things not so?   Don't millions of American Christians literally believe like this?  That they take these literally?

 

Hence my line of questioning to Crithin8.

 

 

If I'm wrong about these things, please correct me.  I'm a foreigner looking in from the outside.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

8 minutes ago, Crithin8 said:

Uncle Jay, “I think there is a website called Blue letter Bible that my pastor uses to look things up. I din’t know how to use it.  First time I tried to use the computer I typed ‘on’ and it didn’t come on. Took about ten years before I tried again. So I’m pencil typing and forgive me if I don’t look it up. I’m no Bible verse and chapter quoter. Just a simple farmer. I remember Jesus saying give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Guess that’s civil. Also Paul saying something about respecting government, suppose that’s civil. What I know about our country is that many philosophies were referenced when it was formed. So the question was by what right do I have to take a life? First the right given to me by law. Can’t break that or I’m not following the Bible. Biblical rights to take a life? Can’t think of any. The young bucks with the NRA stickers on their diesel trucks may think of something. If someone was to break in my door in the middle of the night I’d take care of my family first. But the thought of violence bothers me. I’d rather pray that it never happens than pray for what follow afterwards.”

 

Ok, so I guess I'm talking to the wrong American Christian.

 

I was hoping to talk to a gun-toting NRA type, American Christian about their willingness to spill blood in accordance with their God, Guts and Guns philosophy, which they justify by referring back to the Old Testament and Israel's use of violence to defend itself.

 

But thanks anyway.

 

Walter.

[☆ pantheory ☆]

46 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I'm sorry Pantheory, but it was my understanding that millions of American Christians believe in a literal 6 day creation.  That they also believe in a literal, global flood that lasted forty days and that only eight people survived it.  That the Red Sea literally parted and stood up like a wall to let the Israelites through and then drown the Egyptians.

 

And when it comes to the New Testament these same Christians literally believe that Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine and raised Lazarus from the dead.  They literally believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, that he was literally raised from the dead and that he literally ascended into heaven in the full view of his disciples.

 

Its also my understanding that these millions of American Christians believe these things to be literally true, historical and factual because they are written in the Bible.

 

Are these things not so?   Don't millions of American Christians literally believe like this?  That they take these literally?

 

Hence my line of questioning to Crithin8.

 

 

If I'm wrong about these things, please correct me.  I'm a foreigner looking in from the outside.  

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

They might say they believe in such things in a survey, but from my experience few of such believers know as much about the Bible as other Christians, which is not much. So you're asserting their level of knowledge of the Bible above reality IMO.

 

Also, to know what the Bible says and to literally believe all of it are two different things. Every Christian I have ever met and talked with, with few exceptions, believe the bible is filled with parables, allegory, translation errors, and/or have considered the possibility that there are some fabricated stories within it for moral gist.

 

But still believe in God, Jesus,the devil, heaven and hell.

[Crithin8]

15 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok, so I guess I'm talking to the wrong American Christian.

 

I was hoping to talk to a gun-toting NRA type, American Christian about their willingness to spill blood in accordance with their God, Guts and Guns philosophy, which they justify by referring back to the Old Testament and Israel's use of violence to defend itself.

 

But thanks anyway.

 

Walter.

I haven't met any of those. Uncle Jay was representing the ‘pillars’ of American Christianity that I’m familiar with. There are the young hot blooded types, assertive preachers, and crazies on the fringes. But the social structure mostly respect the ‘pillars’. 
 

[Edgarcito]

I'm still uncertain why this is so fascinating.  Certainly appears history has set these "moral/immoral" boundaries.  The upset is those that feel these boundaries are costing them their freedom are blaming the very evolution that brought them here... inside or outside religion.

 

BUT BUT non-religious people can be moral!  

 

So?  By what standard?  Meandering wants, deviations, "feels".  

 

Stupid thread.

[☆ pantheory ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm still uncertain why this is so fascinating.  Certainly appears history has set these "moral/immoral" boundaries.  The upset is those that feel these boundaries are costing them their freedom are blaming the very evolution that brought them here... inside or outside religion.

 

BUT BUT non-religious people can be moral!  

 

So?  By what standard?  Meandering wants, deviations, "feels".  

 

Stupid thread.

Howdy again my friend.

 

Walter is from England and doesn't understand the religious-right and their political ideas aligned with Trump here in America close to election time.  Walter is very literal and thinks that the Bible could be a major source for their beliefs. It could be true for some people, but I think their is a great variation in the Evangelical-right's beliefs, some more philosophical.

 

So to keep the ball rolling, Walter proposed this thread to find out what we think.

 

Hope all is well with you Edgarcito there in San Angelo. It's cloudy, overcast and cool here in L.A. today, Maybe it will warm up a bit later in the day. Hope to take a walk for a couple of miles later today to find out   Cheers Sir

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I'm still uncertain why this is so fascinating.  Certainly appears history has set these "moral/immoral" boundaries. 

 

With two weeks to go until our general election, this, from the above link webmdave provided, is why. It's just an excerpt. 

 

Quote

What is Christian Nationalism? Christian Nationalism is an identity built on the claim that America was founded as a Christian nation, that it was based on Judea-Christian principles, and, most importantly, that we have strayed from that foundation, from our godly roots. Christian Nationalism employs the language of return in an effort to claim to be the true heirs of the American experiment and, more importantly, the American Identity. In their retelling, Christian Nationalists are the true Americans, everyone else is an interloper.

Christian Nationalism is an entire identity based on disinformation. You've heard the disinformation before: "We're 'One Nation Under God!,"' "in God we trust," the Founding Fathers were all devout Christians who prayed during the Constitutional Convention, George Washington knelt in the snow at Valley Forge and prayed, that our laws and government are based on the Ten Commandments. None of that is true. And for a long time, Christian Nationalism was treated as a historical debate. Historians on one side, propagandists and politicians on the other. But on January 6th, Christian Nationalism ripped off its mask, showing that it is not a scholarly debate about how America was founded, but a violent, exclusionary movement bent on seizing power here and now. It is an attempt to redefine America according to Christian Nationalist disinformation and then reshape the law accordingly.

(emphasis mine)

I suggest you read the whole thing. 

With all due respect, perhaps we should be asking if you consider yourself a christian nationalist? Do you adhere to these "moral" ideas that are "Being shaped by history"? 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, pantheory said:

 

They might say they believe in such things in a survey, but from my experience few of such believers know as much about the Bible as other Christians, which is not much. So you're asserting their level of knowledge of the Bible above reality IMO.

 

Also, to know what the Bible says and to literally believe all of it are two different things. Every Christian I have ever met and talked with, with few exceptions, believe the bible is filled with parables, allegory, translation errors, and/or have considered the possibility that there are some fabricated stories within it for moral gist.

 

But still believe in God, Jesus,the devil, heaven and hell.

 

Outside of your experience and your opinions Pantheory, surely many millions of the kind of American Christian do exist?

 

Or am I just wrong here?

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Crithin8 said:

I haven't met any of those. Uncle Jay was representing the ‘pillars’ of American Christianity that I’m familiar with. There are the young hot blooded types, assertive preachers, and crazies on the fringes. But the social structure mostly respect the ‘pillars’. 
 

 

But, as I've just asked Pantheory, many millions of right-leaning, literalist American Christians do exist, don't they?

 

Even if you haven't met them, they do exist, don't they?

[Edgarcito]

9 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

With two weeks to go until our general election, this, from the above link webmdave provided, is why. It's just an excerpt. 

 

(emphasis mine)

I suggest you read the whole thing. 

With all due respect, perhaps we should be asking if you consider yourself a christian nationalist? Do you adhere to these "moral" ideas that are "Being shaped by history"? 

That's not the point. The shaping is happening all the time.  The problem again is that the pendulum is potentially not swinging in the direction of those who feel left out.  It's brought to some middle ground by the prosperity, i.e. "life", physical and spiritual, of those that are tied to the policies/beliefs.  We might actually applaud those with the insight to separate religion and state. 

 

As I said before in my word salad....it's a life vs. death argument....physical and spiritual.  I you are one of those that brings "death" to the discussion, policies that don't produce fruit, then you will likely be disappointed as some point...  whether it be the radical right or left.  Not allowing Halloween to exist on the right or crossdressing queers to read to your children.  Neither work. 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

Howdy again my friend.

 

Walter is from England and doesn't understand the religious-right and their political ideas aligned with Trump here in America close to election time.  Walter is very literal and thinks that the Bible could be a major source for their beliefs. It could be true for some people, but I think their is a great variation in the Evangelical-right's beliefs, some more philosophical.

 

So to keep the ball rolling, Walter proposed this thread to find out what we think.

 

Hope all is well with you Edgarcito there in San Angelo. It's cloudy, overcast and cool here in L.A. today, Maybe it will warm up a bit later in the day. Hope to take a walk for a couple of miles later today to find out   Cheers Sir

 

That's right, Pantheory.

 

I proposed this thread to find out what certain American Christians think AND the Biblical basis for their thinking.  I had hoped that the resident American Christian in this forum would help me understand these things.  But as the Prof and Webmdave found out, he won't play ball.

 

And as I found out he won't answer any of my questions because he somehow knows my thinking and/or knows in advance where this thread is headed.  

 

Crithin8 kindly offered to help, but he's got no experience of the kind of American Christian I'm interested in.  So were currently going nowhere.

 

Perhaps said Christian will engage with moxieflux66, seeing as she's asked him a direct question?

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

But, as I've just asked Pantheory, many millions of right-leaning, literalist American Christians do exist, don't they?

 

Even if you haven't met them, they do exist, don't they?

Yes they do. My remaining family is part of them. I also lived in a town of 2,000 in a rural county that voted for 45. 

They're an odd bunch, make up rules as they go along and then spread them among the hive like honey. The reason they're so gullible, imo, is because thanks to their devaluing education, a large part of this 'movement' is illiterate; they have to rely on someone they trust to spell it out for them. 

And who do they trust? 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

Howdy again my friend.

 

Walter is from England and doesn't understand the religious-right and their political ideas aligned with Trump here in America close to election time.  Walter is very literal and thinks that the Bible could be a major source for their beliefs. It could be true for some people, but I think their is a great variation in the Evangelical-right's beliefs, some more philosophical.

 

So to keep the ball rolling, Walter proposed this thread to find out what we think.

 

Hope all is well with you Edgarcito there in San Angelo. It's cloudy, overcast and cool here in L.A. today, Maybe it will warm up a bit later in the day. Hope to take a walk for a couple of miles later today to find out   Cheers Sir

Thanks.  That's a good point.  I'm just amazed that these people can't classify me other than fundamental Chrisitan.  When you essentially state the same point, much more eloquently mind you, it's accepted.  But I'm the evil right.  Speaking of blind Dave....