I'm baffled by the American Evangelical Christian Right.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, webmdave said:

 

Interesting discussion!

 

I would add that there is no consensus in the US or anywhere else as to the accurate definition of freedom. The concept of "freedom" has been actively adapting and evolving  throughout history. Since "freedom" and whatever it entails is basically just a human construct, there has been and still is considerable disagreement.  

 

All sorts of Utopian societies have been imagined by philosophers and political scientists, and I don't think we've even scratched the surface on finding a model that is without flaw or eternally sustainable. 

 

Even still, it would be beneficial if a definition of the word "freedom" (at least for the sake of discussion) could be initially agreed upon.  In the absence of defined terms, people erroneously assume they are all talking about the same thing. Many of those conversations sound more to me more like people talking past each other. 

 

Regardless, an interesting discussion!

 

Please throw something out there.....

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

23 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Please throw something out there.....

 

What if it's this: 

 

Quote

Quote

"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose".....Janis Joplin

(unless that includes losing your sanity. I'd have to object to that!) 

 

[webmdave]

 

28 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Please throw something out there.....

 

I find that the concept of Freedom is quite interesting as addressed by the Oxford English Dictionary: 

 

I. The state or fact of being free from servitude, constraint, inhibition, etc.; liberty.
I.1.a.
Old English–
Exemption or release from slavery or imprisonment; = liberty n.1 I.1b.

    letter of freedom (now historical): a document emancipating a slave.

 

CLICK THIS LINK FOR THE FULL EXPERIENCE AND  MUCH MORE

 

 

Next... 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, webmdave said:

 

 

I find that the concept of Freedom is quite interesting as addressed by the Oxford English Dictionary: 

 

I. The state or fact of being free from servitude, constraint, inhibition, etc.; liberty.
I.1.a.
Old English–
Exemption or release from slavery or imprisonment; = liberty n.1 I.1b.

    letter of freedom (now historical): a document emancipating a slave.

 

CLICK THIS LINK FOR THE FULL EXPERIENCE AND  MUCH MORE

 

 

Next... 

I don't see that we are nor are capable to be free from any of these mentioned.  We are initially constrained, and it goes downhill from there.

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No, you're just wanting to argue; and I truthfully don't have the time nor want to....

 

False.

 

Moreover, you can't know that I'm just wanting to argue any more than you can know where this thread is headed.

 

Edgarcito wrote...

 

Thanks but we have previously had a long conversation regarding where this thread is headed. 

 

To know these things you'd either have to be a mind reader or a clairvoyant and since you neither, you are just ducking the question.

 

 

For the avoidance of doubt Ed, let me spell it out to you.  This thread is about the beliefs of American Christians, comparing what they believe about freedom here and now on Earth with what freedom they believe they will find in heaven.  Their beliefs about the latter should correspond with what the Bible says about the freedom they will enjoy in heaven. 

 

You are just such an American Christian and I've asked you a question about what the Bible says about freedom in heaven.

 

Therefore my question to you is in every way relevant, pertinent and on-topic. 

 

So, what does the Bible say about Christian freedom, Ed?

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, webmdave said:

 

Interesting discussion!

 

I would add that there is no consensus in the US or anywhere else as to the accurate definition of freedom. The concept of "freedom" has been actively adapting and evolving  throughout history. Since "freedom" and whatever it entails is basically just a human construct, there has been and still is considerable disagreement.  

 

All sorts of Utopian societies have been imagined by philosophers and political scientists, and I don't think we've even scratched the surface on finding a model that is without flaw or eternally sustainable. 

 

Even still, it would be beneficial if a definition of the word "freedom" (at least for the sake of discussion) could be initially agreed upon.  In the absence of defined terms, people erroneously assume they are all talking about the same thing. Many of those conversations sound more to me more like people talking past each other. 

 

Regardless, an interesting discussion!

 

 

But what does the Bible say about Christian freedom?

 

We're still waiting for Ed to answer that simple question.

[walterpthefirst]

48 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't see that we are nor are capable to be free from any of these mentioned.  We are initially constrained, and it goes downhill from there.

 

 

Perhaps you could tell us what the Bible says about Christian freedom, Ed?

[webmdave]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't see that we are nor are capable to be free from any of these mentioned.  We are initially constrained, and it goes downhill from there.

 

 

Maybe you are the one who just wants to argue. 

 

Romans 6:18: "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." 

 

Christians are always slaves.  And who is the master? Here it is righteousness! And what is righteousness? Whatever your Christian leader says it is. 

 

Ephesians 6:1:  "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart."

 

Christian Nationalism finds it's basis in slavery and mind control. Christian Nationalism's goal is to replace freedom with Christian theocracy.  

 

Islamists would in principle agree, except they prefer Islamic theocracy. 

 

[Edgarcito]

10 minutes ago, webmdave said:

 

Maybe you are the one who just wants to argue. 

 

Romans 6:18: "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." 

 

Christians are always slaves.  And who is the master? Here it is righteousness! And what is righteousness? Whatever your Christian leader says it is. 

 

Ephesians 6:1:  "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart."

 

Christian Nationalism finds it's basis in slavery and mind control. Christian Nationalism's goal is to replace freedom with Christian theocracy.  

 

Islamists would in principle agree, except they prefer Islamic theocracy. 

 

I wasn't commenting in the context of religion necessarily.  Scientifically we are constrained as humans on Earth.  We are likewise constrained as humans in some particular "order" Christianity proposes.  So we are constrained regardless either by our existence or placement....

 

With regard to arguing, over the years I've never visited with you in any discussion that I remember.  I have no desire to argue with you.  Just trying to present my points.  

 

[walterpthefirst]

Well, the apostle Paul certainly considered himself to be a slave.

 

Romans 1 : 1 - 4

 

Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 

2 which he promised previously through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 

3 concerning his Son, who was born a descendant[a] of David according to the flesh, 

4 who was declared Son of God in power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ our Lord,

[walterpthefirst]

And the apostle Peter, the Rock upon which Jesus chose to build his church had no problem being a slave to Christ and instructing others to become slaves like this.

 

1 Peter 2 : 16 - 20

 

16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 

17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honour the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 

19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 

20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 

 

 

Fear of god and slavery to god!

 

 

Roy Batty, in Bladerunner...

 

"Quite something to live in fear, isn't it?  That what it is to be a slave."

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Well, the apostle Paul certainly considered himself to be a slave.

 

Romans 1 : 1 - 4

 

Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 

2 which he promised previously through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 

3 concerning his Son, who was born a descendant[a] of David according to the flesh, 

4 who was declared Son of God in power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ our Lord,

Walter, Dave's definition says "free from".  Why don't you tell me how humans are free from constraint.  These very verses are constraint......moral constraint, but still constraint.  

 

I'm totally perplexed on how lost y'all seem here.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Walter, Dave's definition says "free from".  Why don't you tell me how humans are free from constraint.  These very verses are constraint......moral constraint, but still constraint.  

 

I'm totally perplexed on how lost y'all seem here.

 

But I'm not going by Dave's definition, Ed.

 

I asked you what the Bible says about Christian freedom and you've refused to answer.

 

So I'm quoting what the Bible says because you won't do it.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

But I'm not going by Dave's definition, Ed.

 

I asked you what the Bible says about Christian freedom and you've refused to answer.

 

So I'm quoting what the Bible says because you won't do it.

That's fine.  I have told you previously that I don't want to go down this path again.  I already know where you're headed and we've already been there.  Thanks.

 

[walterpthefirst]

Ephesians 6 : 5 - 9

 

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 

6 Obey them not only to win their favour when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 

7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 

8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him.

 

 

The logic is impeccable.

 

If there are slaves to Christ then Christ must be the slave master.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

That's fine.  I have told you previously that I don't want to go down this path again.  I already know where you're headed and we've already been there.  Thanks.

 

 

No you don't.

 

As I've already said, you'd have to be either a mind reader or a clairvoyant to know where I'm headed.

 

And you're neither.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 Corinthians 7 : 21 - 23

 

21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 

22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 

23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

 

 

That follows.  

 

Slaves are bought and sold for a price.

 

It doesn't matter if the price was the life of Jesus Christ.

 

The slaves of Christ are still being bought and sold when it is totally immoral for any human being to be bought or sold.

 

 

[webmdave]

37 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I wasn't commenting in the context of religion necessarily.  Scientifically we are constrained as humans on Earth.  We are likewise constrained as humans in some particular "order" Christianity proposes.  So we are constrained regardless either by our existence or placement....

 

With regard to arguing, over the years I've never visited with you in any discussion that I remember.  I have no desire to argue with you.  Just trying to present my points.  

 

 

And here's the problem. Your definition of freedom is filtered through your religion soaked mind. 

 

Freedom is freedom from the constraint of slavery. Read the entire definition. The colonists felt  like slaves of the King of England. They wanted freedom from his constraint. 

 

Political freedom has nothing to do with scientific physical limitations of being a human. 

 

However, you are most certainly a slave to your religion.

[walterpthefirst]

I agree, webmdave.

 

 

Edgarcito is so much a slave to his religion that he refuses to answer simple questions about what the Bible says.

 

If he weren't in such mental and moral bondage he might feel free to answer truthfully.

 

But he won't because his heart and mind are bound in the shackles of the Christian religion.

 

Proof indeed that religion doesn't bring freedom, but actually enslaves people with invisible chains.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

In practical, or even philosophical, terms, what is the difference between a slave born into slavery versus a slave bought and paid for by the master?  This question is about original sin versus redemption.  

[Edgarcito]

54 minutes ago, webmdave said:

 

And here's the problem. Your definition of freedom is filtered through your religion soaked mind. 

 

Freedom is freedom from the constraint of slavery. Read the entire definition. The colonists felt  like slaves of the King of England. They wanted freedom from his constraint. 

 

Political freedom has nothing to do with scientific physical limitations of being a human. 

 

However, you are most certainly a slave to your religion.

Pick one sir… inside or outside religion.. thx

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

In practical, or even philosophical, terms, what is the difference between a slave born into slavery versus a slave bought and paid for by the master?  This question is about original sin versus redemption 

 

 

But Romans 11 : 32 tells us that everyone was created all of us as slaves - slaves to disobedience.

 

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

So, there was no free choice on anyone's part (especially not Adam nor Eve's) to disobey god.

 

He made us slaves from the outset.

 

 

Q.

Do slaves have free will?

 

A.

No, their freedom to make free choices is denied to them by their slave master.

 

 

In this case, that would be god.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

And that's the difference, is it?

[walterpthefirst]

6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

And that's the difference, is it?

 

No, that's what the Bible says.

 

We were born into slavery by god's design then bought out of that particular kind of slavery by him sacrificing himself to himself on the cross.

 

However, by buying us in this way he makes us into slaves of a different kind - not slaves to sin or disobedience, but slaves to Him.

 

So, to answer your question, there is no practical or philosophical difference here.

 

Slavery is slavery.

 

 

 

 

[webmdave]

39 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Pick one sir… inside or outside religion.. thx

 

There is no freedom inside religion, only slavery in one form or another. There is no such thing as having freedom to violate the laws of physics. No human can levitate, or fly, or breathe underwater. Our physical or mental  limitations are not constraints. Constraints are bonds put on us by others. Constraints are social/political bonds. Could be ropes and chains, or rules of decorum, etc. We may seek to obtain freedom from those types of things. We may also achieve freedom of or freedom  from religion. We can also be constrained by religion or constrained from free expression of religion. Once again, constraints are placed on us by others. Limitations are just part of the realities of nature. 

 

Is English a second language for you?  

 

 

Oxford English Dictionary: 

 

I. The state or fact of being free from servitude, constraint, inhibition, etc.; liberty.