I'm baffled by the American Evangelical Christian Right.

[walterpthefirst]

Next month Americans decide who will be their next president.  I won’t get into the politics or personalities involved, but as a foreigner looking in from the outside, I find myself baffled by the beliefs and expectations of many millions of Right-leaning evangelical Christians in the U.S.  The millions who will no doubt play a pivotal role in saying who will sit in the White House for the next four years.

 

The beliefs I wish to focus on are both religious and political in nature.  Here are some of them.

 

·        A deep-seated belief in personal rights, freedoms, and liberties

·        A deep-seated belief in the authority of the Bible

·        A deep-seated belief in family values

 

If the three beliefs listed above can be called positive ones, then on the flip side of the same evangelical Christian coin there are what could be called negative beliefs.

 

*        A deep-seated mistrust of centralized authority and government

*       A complete rejection of autocracy or absolute rule

*       An abhorrence of anything that would unnecessarily constrain personal freedom against the wishes of the individual 

        

But when it comes to what these Christians expect to find in heaven, do they really believe that these dearly-held Earthly freedoms will be respected and upheld there?  That heaven will be a place where they can freely can speak their mind, can freely hold their own opinions and where they are free to live as they choose?  The answers to all of these questions depend on what the Bible has to say about freedom. 

 

When Jesus speaks about freedom in the gospels and the apostles Paul, James, John and Peter also speak of it in the epistles what they are referring to is FREEDOM FROM SIN.  Not religious or political freedom.  Not freedom of choice, freedom of association or the freedom to do and think what you choose.  Here is an example.

 

Romans 8 : 18 – 21

¹⁸ I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. ¹⁹ For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. ²⁰ For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope ²¹ that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

This is about freedom from sin and nothing else.  This freedom comes about by being assimilated into the collective (the Body of Christ) and having your thoughts and feelings conformed into the thoughts and feelings of Jesus Christ.

 

Romans 8 : 29

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 

 

In the Star Trek universe humanoid races would rather die than be assimilated and conformed into the Borg collective, losing their individuality, and becoming like-thinking drones.  Ok, that's fiction.  But in reality American Christians seem to be willing to trade in their personal freedom and individuality for the future promise of losing these things and being conformed into the mental, spiritual, and moral likeness of Jesus.  One body in Christ.

 

Do they really fail to understand that the personal freedoms and liberties that they hold so dear in this life will be meaningless in heaven?

 

In heaven there is only one opinion that counts - God’s.  Only one moral viewpoint that counts – God’s.  Only one judgement that counts – God’s.  Nobody, not angels or men, have the right or the freedom to hold any other opinion, viewpoint, or judgment than God’s.  This is absolute and autocratic rule by an all-powerful, all-knowing authority, the ultimate opposite of the individual, personal freedoms, and liberties that American Christians hold so dear.

 

According to scripture, there is even a worked example of how God treats those who dare to disagree with him.  Long ago one angel tried to exercise his personal freedom to differ with God and look at how well that turned out.

 

As I said at the start, I am baffled by why so many American Christians haven’t figured out, by reading the Bible, that their deeply-cherished earthly freedoms will not be honoured or upheld in heaven.  Why they seem to want to throw all of their personal freedoms away, in favour of becoming a Jesus clone and living forever as a same-thinking drone dedicated to bowing and scraping at the feet of the ultimate absolute autocrat.

 

So, perhaps the American members of this forum could explain this mystery to me?

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

[Dsred19]

Christian nationalism has played a big role in my deconversion. If all these nut jobs are so convinced that god is telling them to behave like this, while many others are convinced god telling them something quite different, and what the New Testament says about Jesus is then another thing altogether….well if god is all knowing and the Bible supposedly his perfect word you would think it would be a heck of a lot clearer.

Christians seem to divide themselves into to camps: the vengeful god who is going to smite anyone who disagrees with them ( Old Testament and honestly some of the words of Jesus as well) OR the god is love camp. They can’t possibly both be correct so my conclusion is neither. Just a bunch of ancient goat herders making shit up.

[Dsred19]

And in the end, Christian nationalism simply plays to the deep seated prejudices and bigotries many Americans harbor, and promises them a world where everyone is just like them, thinks like them and they play it off as “righteousness”

[TheRedneckProfessor]

At first blush, I'd say you first need to define what "freedom" means to an American; because, again just shooting from the hip here, I would argue that few, if any, Americans can clearly and articulately define that word.  It's just a buzzword for us that gets us excited but literally holds no genuine or demonstrable meaning.  As an example, you will hear someone say, "We gotta s'port the troops, 'cause they fought for our freedum!"  Ask the fellow to name one freedom that the troops fought for and protected, and suddenly the conversation takes a darker turn involving death to traitors and only True Patriots should be allowed in America and them god damn libtards are destroying the country.  It's weird, really.  Because in actuality, we have fewer freedoms now than we did prior to 9/11 and the "war on terror".  I remember a time when I could travel around the country without even showing an ID to anybody.  Now I need a passport, "real" ID, birth certificate, 3 witnesses, a utility bill in my name, and a voter registration card just to get through security, meanwhile my pants are falling down because my belt and shoes are still in the scanner.  But, hey, "Freedum," amirite?  So, I'm not sure the American crowd here can help you clear up your confusion.  I don't think we're the ones to ask.  Maybe @TABA could offer a more unique perspective as a transplant.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

At first blush, I'd say you first need to define what "freedom" means to an American; because, again just shooting from the hip here, I would argue that few, if any, Americans can clearly and articulately define that word.  It's just a buzzword for us that gets us excited but literally holds no genuine or demonstrable meaning.  As an example, you will hear someone say, "We gotta s'port the troops, 'cause they fought for our freedum!"  Ask the fellow to name one freedom that the troops fought for and protected, and suddenly the conversation takes a darker turn involving death to traitors and only True Patriots should be allowed in America and them god damn libtards are destroying the country.  It's weird, really.  Because in actuality, we have fewer freedoms now than we did prior to 9/11 and the "war on terror".  I remember a time when I could travel around the country without even showing an ID to anybody.  Now I need a passport, "real" ID, birth certificate, 3 witnesses, a utility bill in my name, and a voter registration card just to get through security, meanwhile my pants are falling down because my belt and shoes are still in the scanner.  But, hey, "Freedum," amirite?  So, I'm not sure the American crowd here can help you clear up your confusion.  I don't think we're the ones to ask.  Maybe @TABA could offer a more unique perspective as a transplant.

 

Well, I was rather hoping that the American members of this forum could help me out when it comes to what the evangelical Christians mean by freedom, Prof.

 

But if that's not the case, then perhaps TABA could help?

 

 

However, one thing I am quite confident of is that the Bible only ever refers to the freedom of believers in two ways.

 

First, as I described earlier, the freedom from sin.

 

Second, where the apostles instruct the faithful not to exercise their freedom on Earth in such a way that it harms anyone else.

 

And that's it.  Nowhere in scripture does god himself, his prophets or his apostles say different.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

And in the end, Christian nationalism simply plays to the deep seated prejudices and bigotries many Americans harbor, and promises them a world where everyone is just like them, thinks like them and they play it off as “righteousness”

 

 

Then they haven't read their Bibles, have they, Dsred19?

 

Or they just wilfully ignore any passages they don't like and don't want to live by.

 

Like this one.

 

Matthew 5 : 38 - 48

 

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’

39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 

40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 

41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 

42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 

44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 

45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 

47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 

48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

Not really the violence-is-ok, vengeance-seeking mentality of the God, Guts and Guns crowd, is it?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Well, I was rather hoping that the American members of this forum could help me out when it comes to what the evangelical Christians mean by freedom, Prof.

Therein lies the problem, though, Walt.  American evangelical christians' definition of "freedom" is highly informed by the political vagaries surrounding the word.  For fundies, "freedom" serves the same purpose: a sound to get them excited but lacking any real significance.  Ask a christian to name one freedom they gained by being warshed in th' blud of th' layum and they will say a lot of words without ever being able to definitively answer the question.  "I'm free from sin" is the closest you'll ever get to consensus.  

 

To your point, though, I think the simple answer most christians would give would be something along the lines of following god's will is freedom.  And in heaven, the very desire to do anything other than god's will is absent, which must be the ultimate freedom.  I'm sure there are a few who might admit that not having to be around gay people of look at mixed-race children is "freedom"; but most would likely say that just not having their own "sinful" thoughts and desires, being wholly focused on jesus and god's will, really is the culmination of liberty.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Christians tend to create a god-image that is a reflection of their own culture and skin color. That has always been the case looking at icons of Jesus around the world. American evangelicals are in a state of mind that makes God into one of them. I saw a flag in a rural section of our county that said "GOD, GUNS, GUTS!" and that implies that God approves of their nod to him, that God approves of their most precious "felt" freedom of owning and using firearms (the last wall of defense against tyrants), and that they aren't afraid to use guns to advance their views. These rank-and-file believers are not people that tend to actually read the Bible other than to justify the idea that they are chosen by God and all the others are slime to be burned for eternity. 

 

I know of only one preacher in recent years that said plainly that the god of the bible is a dictator king that demands that we die in torture to our own desires and sense of self and become obedient to him. Believers don't tend to write songs about that sort of thing. Instead we hear "Satan is under my feet!" Songs of victory, bliss, being purified and chosen. So you rightfully point out that believers have a very different view of the kingdom of god than is presented in the Bible. When the Bible was written, people were used to having kings. America rejected a monarchy and tried to form a way that was more representative. Now believers that are used to the American mindset have filtered out the "king" stuff except in the form of "OUR God is Number 1!!!! YEAH!!!", more like rooting for a sports team. American cultural Christianity is like that. And that largely explains why there is such a sharp division in the country now that people are rejecting religion more. But the cultural Christianity has got to the point where openly autocratic types are embraced for saying they will "fix" things. We've certainly had them from time to time, but not at this level of fervor and willingness to be violent. 

 

The political arm of the church seeks to institutionalize control in the name of god, but they tend to honor, promote, and curry the favor of the very rich (whom Jesus expressly did not honor). Money brings power and ability to influence masses. Once ensconced, they are hard to remove. Even now, we have no idea how entrenched this movement is in our branches of government and the services like the FBI, armed forces, and such. We could be counting on one kind of behavior from them and end up with something quite different. There is a sub-sect of this political arm that is more like the Inquisition, strong believers taking deep pride in forcing bible laws on the populace, and feeling ever so blessed by god for doing so. They are systematic and purposeful in trying to gain power (Heritage Foundation). Several lawsuits have been filed against military officers who were forcing soldiers to attend evangelical meetings regularly. They see it as advancing the kingdom of god and don't really care if it is against the law to do so. 

 

Those are the immediate strains of belief I see in the current culture of America as relates to god being a king. 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

This might also help, Walt.  Notice what number America is in terms of "freedom".  Yet to hear an American tell it, we got more "freedom" here than anywhere else in the world.

[Edgarcito]

Immoral freedom is what a portion of people want.  Which I guess if you don't believe in some standard means freedom to do anything....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Immoral freedom is what a portion of people want.

Define "immoral" and then define "freedom".

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Define "immoral" and then define "freedom".

Right, it's relative to a standard....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Right, it's relative to a standard....

Then you should be able to tell us what the "standard" is, even if you can't speak to where my view fits in relation to the "standard."  So, by all means, define...

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Then you should be able to tell us what the "standard" is, even if you can't speak to where my view fits in relation to the "standard."  So, by all means, define...

Just thinking out loud.  Seems like it's linear in that there are deviations one directions but again seemingly correct back to the line.  And seems to be divided by acts and thoughts that bring death rather than life.  Best guess sir.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Just thinking out loud.  Seems like it's linear in that there are deviations one directions but again seemingly correct back to the line.  And seems to be divided by acts and thoughts that bring death rather than life.  Best guess sir.

What does "freedom" mean?  What does "immoral" mean?  What does "freedom from 'sin'" mean?  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

See what I mean, Walt?  Americans in general cannot define freedom; American christians even less so.

[Edgarcito]

It's not a difficult concept Prof.  We are ultimately free to rape, pillage, and plunder, but those don't bring "life" to our environment whether it's physical or mental/spiritual.

 

Some things are legislated but I believe there is a push towards immoral freedom vs. the historical American norm.  Not difficult to see.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It's not a difficult concept Prof.  We are ultimately free to rape, pillage, and plunder, but those don't bring "life" to our environment whether it's physical or mental/spiritual.

 

Some things are legislated but I believe there is a push towards immoral freedom vs. the historical American norm.  Not difficult to see.

 

 

Define "freedom" and "immoral."

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Define "freedom" and "immoral."

We can't.  For the same reasons we can't understand the universe completely.  We don't know the small, we don't know the large, we don't ultimately know what life or death are, so how ultimately am I/ are we to define freedom and immoral.  Hence faith.  Catch a clue amigo...

[walterpthefirst]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

We can't.  For the same reasons we can't understand the universe completely.  We don't know the small, we don't know the large, we don't ultimately know what life or death are, so how ultimately am I/ are we to define freedom and immoral.  Hence faith.  Catch a clue amigo...

 

I'm not talking about faith here in this thread, Ed.

 

I'm talking about what's written down in the Bible, which you, as a Christian should look to and try and live by. 

 

What does the Bible say about Christian freedom?

 

Please tell us.

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I'm not talking about faith here in this thread, Ed.

 

I'm talking about what's written down in the Bible, which you, as a Christian should look to and try and live by. 

 

What does the Bible say about Christian freedom?

 

Please tell us.

Thanks but we have previously had a long conversation regarding where this thread is headed.  I don't have the time nor will to rehash...

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Thanks but we have previously had a long conversation regarding where this thread is headed.  I don't have the time nor will to rehash...

 

Not in this thread we didn't.

 

You must be confused.

 

You and I only started interacting in this thread 11 minutes ago.

 

 

So, you're ducking my question, then?

 

[Edgarcito]

22 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Not in this thread we didn't.

 

You must be confused.

 

You and I only started interacting in this thread 11 minutes ago.

 

 

So, you're ducking my question, then?

 

No, you're just wanting to argue; and I truthfully don't have the time nor want to....

[Wertbag]

I often find people have a very shallow idea of freedom, simply saying "we have it" without considering what "it" is. Every freedom is curtailed for social peace, privacy, safety and the greater good, its just a matter of where the lines are subjectively draw.

All Western nations ban certain books, symbols, relics and objects due to public sensibilities. Freedom of speech runs against public nuisance, disturbing the peace, slander, perjury and blasphemy laws. Personal freedom doesn't allow you to inject heroine, have sex with consenting minors or walk the streets naked. You aren't free to travel without paperwork, across private or government property or across any arbitrary national boundary.

Laws restrict freedoms, so we can say we are happy with the level of freedom but never that we are completely free. Complete freedom means no laws and no society, maybe only those living in the wilderness away from laws are truly free but then they also have no rights, those being the protections that are legally given. 

[webmdave]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

See what I mean, Walt?  Americans in general cannot define freedom; American christians even less so.

 

Interesting discussion!

 

I would add that there is no consensus in the US or anywhere else as to the accurate definition of freedom. The concept of "freedom" has been actively adapting and evolving  throughout history. Since "freedom" and whatever it entails is basically just a human construct, there has been and still is considerable disagreement.  

 

All sorts of Utopian societies have been imagined by philosophers and political scientists, and I don't think we've even scratched the surface on finding a model that is without flaw or eternally sustainable. 

 

Even still, it would be beneficial if a definition of the word "freedom" (at least for the sake of discussion) could be initially agreed upon.  In the absence of defined terms, people erroneously assume they are all talking about the same thing. Many of those conversations sound more to me more like people talking past each other. 

 

Regardless, an interesting discussion!