Problems with being all-loving

[Wertbag]

It is often said that God is all-loving or all-good, and while this usually makes people consider the problem of evil there are other facets of this claim that equally cause issue. 

Firstly, can a being of perfect goodness think of or consider evil and suffering at all?  Surely the concepts would be foreign to it, as there is no evil within its mind.  But if it cannot fathom or know evil, then claims of being all-knowing are broken.   If it can't understand evil, then how did it create predators, disease, parasites and the eco-system of suffering that we have?

If it doesn't understand evil, then how does it write laws and given commandments to curtail what it can't know?

 

Prior to the creation of the universe God would have been in heaven, a place of pure goodness, so having perfection he decided to make a universe knowing his would create evil and suffering.  His choice is moving further away from perfection.  What good can be created that an all-good being doesn't already have?  If no additional good can come of this creation, then it has to be a net negative.  Creation for the increase of evil and suffering, not for any good.

 

Did hell always exist?  Did an all-good being create a place of fire and suffering?  Was it created to torture people or as a prison for fallen angels?  If the latter, then did He know the perfectly good beings He created were flawed?  If a perfect God in a perfect heaven makes perfect angels, then how do we get a third of angels fallen and their conversion from pure good to pure evil?  How does a being of pure goodness end up creating pure evil?

 

There is also the conflict between all-good and all-powerful.  A being who is all-powerful can do anything, there are no barriers it cannot overcome.  Yet an all-good being is restricted by its very nature.  It cannot do everything, as there are things which are immoral or evil and are therefore impossible.  Can an all-good being lie?  Kill?  Steal?  An all-powerful being could, but an all-good being is by default limited in its ability to apply its power.

[Casualfanboy16]

3 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Firstly, can a being of perfect goodness think of or consider evil and suffering at all?  Surely the concepts would be foreign to it, as there is no evil within its mind.  But if it cannot fathom or know evil, then claims of being all-knowing are broken.   If it can't understand evil, then how did it create predators, disease, parasites and the eco-system of suffering that we have?

If it doesn't understand evil, then how does it write laws and given commandments to curtail what it can't know?

These are all very great questions, Wertbag! You raise up a lot of good points. I'll try my best to give my thoughts below, because I admit I had to think a bit on these. I like the challenge though. Gotta get these gears turning lol. Honestly, I haven't thought about this one before. So I can't give that good of an answer, but I will attempt to- hopefully with minimal contradictions lol.

 

I can't say much for the first or last parts at the moment but the bolded sentence I have some things to say on that. Perhaps I'm interpreting it weirdly because it's later in the evening and therefore I am tired, but by themselves, all the stuff in that list of things aren't necessarily evil.

 

Predators are just a part of nature, they gotta catch prey to eat, and don't really have any moral hangups over what it needs to eat for dinner since it's just playing its part in the cycle of life. They may come after us humans sometimes and cause us suffering/death, but predators and their nature aren't inherently good or evil. They're just doing what needs to be done to live. We all do, but animals do it without much thought.

 

Disease and parasites also aren't inherently "good" or "evil" things, but are a natural part of life. I mean, I guess you could argue they are because way back in Genesis with Adam and Eve, they never experienced or knew suffering until after they ate of the fruit, and disease and parasites were a result of sin and therefore evil.

 

Now that I think about it, sort of on that topic, God would've had knowledge of good and evil. I mean he knew of it, but how much of an understanding of either of those concepts would he have? I dunno. I'm too tired to think haha.

 

3 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Did hell always exist?  Did an all-good being create a place of fire and suffering?  Was it created to torture people or as a prison for fallen angels?  If the latter, then did He know the perfectly good beings He created were flawed?  If a perfect God in a perfect heaven makes perfect angels, then how do we get a third of angels fallen and their conversion from pure good to pure evil?  How does a being of pure goodness end up creating pure evil?

This one has also put me in quite the dilemma. I never thought if Hell always existed, or if Satan just claimed some far off territory away from Heaven as his own little kingdom. Would Heaven and Hell be their own separate dimensions with separate rules, or would they exist within the same place- still with their own separate rules? Regardless, God's presence would still have to be in both and everything else, for if God created everything and was omnipresent, he'd have to create good and evil and  be present within both, right? I mean, yes. Isaiah 45:7 did say he created evil. So God created evil, is present in everything, including evil, so if he creates and is present within evil, how good is he? Doesn't seem that good. It makes God's "goodness" fall flat, no?

 

3 hours ago, Wertbag said:

There is also the conflict between all-good and all-powerful.  A being who is all-powerful can do anything, there are no barriers it cannot overcome.  Yet an all-good being is restricted by its very nature.  It cannot do everything, as there are things which are immoral or evil and are therefore impossible.  Can an all-good being lie?  Kill?  Steal?  An all-powerful being could, but an all-good being is by default limited in its ability to apply its power.

I don't have much to add on this one for now, because this one makes a lot of sense. I guess it depends if you think whether God is above his own moral restrictions that he set up for us sinners or not. Could God be above concepts such as what's "good" or what's "bad" or "morally grey"? Or is that too far into "his ways are not our ways and he is beyond our feeble human understanding" territory?

 

Let me know what you think. My brain is melting. I have no mouth and I must scream. Thank you.  

[Wertbag]

19 minutes ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

predators and their nature aren't inherently good or evil.

True.  In philosophy they categorise these things as "natural evils", things like natural disasters, predators and diseases.  Things that cause bad outcomes and suffering for other sentient lifeforms because of the natural order of things.  For natural evils to exist the creator had to design them that way.  He designed the fangs, claws, stingers and venoms, there is no other being that created anything, so all creation is His. 

 

You get these goofy creationist images of T-Rex's eating watermelons prior to the fruit being eaten, then afterwards being converted into carnivores, like some kind of magic pulse went out and changed the animals.  Not just changing their teeth but their knowledge of hunting, their digestive systems, their camouflage, their bones and muscles.  They are hardly the same creatures.  Of course, even if that were so, it would still have to be using God's power and at God's authority.

The entire eco-system is built on a predator/prey relationship, with millions of creatures being killed every day to feed things further up the food chain.  All of the blood, pain and fear is built into the system that He designed.  

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

4 hours ago, Wertbag said:

What good can be created that an all-good being doesn't already have? 

This is my favorite question. You would think that there's no more need for creation with a Perfect ecosystem, like a terrarium. It's self sustaining. 

What would be god's motivation for having more than what is already perfect by creating humans and then setting us up for being his scapegoats? Boredom? Sadism? Slavery? Dissention? Anyone? Anyone? 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Perhaps it would help to think of those Biblical concepts as being fairy tales written by a schizophrenic??  No matter how you look at them, they simply don't make sense.

[Casualfanboy16]

6 hours ago, Wertbag said:

You get these goofy creationist images of T-Rex's eating watermelons prior to the fruit being eaten, then afterwards being converted into carnivores, like some kind of magic pulse went out and changed the animals.  Not just changing their teeth but their knowledge of hunting, their digestive systems, their camouflage, their bones and muscles.  They are hardly the same creatures.  Of course, even if that were so, it would still have to be using God's power and at God's authority.

The entire eco-system is built on a predator/prey relationship, with millions of creatures being killed every day to feed things further up the food chain.  All of the blood, pain and fear is built into the system that He designed.

You have a good point, but I cannot stop thinking of a T-rex trying to hold a watermelon with its little arms.

[Dsred19]

And think about how violent god is in the OT. This loving god commands soldiers to cut open pregnant women and kill their babies. How is this all loving or good? 
 

I also don’t understand that if this god is all powerful good and loving, he knowingly creates people who are born in Muslim countries or the Amazonian jungle who he knows will never hear or know about Jesus and even if they do will soundly reject him. Why?! Why create a human you supposedly live so much only to cast them into hell mainly because where god himself commanded they be born??!!

[Casualfanboy16]

29 minutes ago, Dsred19 said:

I also don’t understand that if this god is all powerful good and loving, he knowingly creates people who are born in Muslim countries or the Amazonian jungle who he knows will never hear or know about Jesus and even if they do will soundly reject him. Why?! Why create a human you supposedly live so much only to cast them into hell mainly because where god himself commanded they be born??!!

^^^100% this. God will create people and put them into places where his word isn't the dominant religion, and then he gets angry when people follow anything else besides his word. And if they haven't had the chance to hear of it- say, a remote tribe somewhere- then how can you judge an individual that has never had contact, or has had limited contact with your holy word? He sends people to Hell who would have otherwise never known that hell existed in the first place. Not very kind, loving, or just in any way. Also, with all the different religions, what makes Christianity stand out among the rest? 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Were I a christian apologist, I would misdirect by stating that god can do evil and cause suffering, because he is omnipotent; but it is not in his nature to do so, because he is all-loving. 

 

Were I a godless heathen countering that misdirect, I would point out, as you have, that somebody had to envision hell first before creating it.  And that same somebody would have known that it would primarily be occupied by humans.

[Casualfanboy16]

55 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Were I a godless heathen countering that misdirect, I would point out, as you have, that somebody had to envision hell first before creating it.  And that same somebody would have known that it would primarily be occupied by humans.

Good point! And someone would have to have set up the circumstances/chain of events for Hell to be created. The garden of Eden, the Fall of Satan and his army, etc, etc. It was all god from the very beginning. Satan had some part in it, sure, but it was still god that let all this happen. He's all-powerful, could've stopped him at any time, but did not do that! 

 

"But free will!" the apologist cries. "But predestination" the godless heathen counters.

[Casualfanboy16]

Not 100% sure if this goes with the thread, but it could make for interesting discussion. If it needs moving, please do so mods.

 

 

[Casualfanboy16]

Hey, @Wertbag! I found a pretty good video about the topic on this thread. Let me know what you think.

 

 

[Wertbag]

8 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

Hey, @Wertbag! I found a pretty good video about the topic on this thread. Let me know what you think.

 

Not a bad list from Kirsti.  One she mentioned that I haven't heard discussed is Hosea 13:16:

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

 

That's a pretty brutal passage, with God once again demanding infant killing, even going as far as to kill the babies inside the mothers.  And Christians will try to say God is Pro-Life...

[Casualfanboy16]

5 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Not a bad list from Kirsti.  One she mentioned that I haven't heard discussed is Hosea 13:16:

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."

 

That's a pretty brutal passage, with God once again demanding infant killing, even going as far as to kill the babies inside the mothers.  And Christians will try to say God is Pro-Life...

Honestly with the fact he committed worldwide genocide by drowning nearly everyone in water in a flood..... he wasn't very pro-life from the very beginning. Passages like that just reinforce my "God is anti-life" stance lol

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Believers today forget that the Bible god, like other old gods, were generally patterned after humans, with jealousy, fatigue, exasperation, rage, anger, hatred, lust, love of BBQ, and a body, etc. How a tribal Middle-Eastern deity became so popular and so perfect despite these traits is quite a story. Why humans can still believe any of it to be real is a whole field of study. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

10 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said:

Honestly with the fact he committed worldwide genocide by drowning nearly everyone in water in a flood..... he wasn't very pro-life from the very beginning. Passages like that just reinforce my "God is anti-life" stance lol

Another way to look at it is that you can’t put any kind of description on something that doesn’t exist.  

[Casualfanboy16]

26 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Another way to look at it is that you can’t put any kind of description on something that doesn’t exist.  

Real and true!!!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 8/5/2024 at 3:02 PM, Casualfanboy16 said:

Hey, @Wertbag! I found a pretty good video about the topic on this thread. Let me know what you think.

 

 

 

GREAT VIDEO!!

[Casualfanboy16]

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

GREAT VIDEO!!

Yes! I love her videos. And it just so happened that the topic we brought up here was recently talked about on her channel. A lot of her content I recommend for those deconstructing who like need a bit more of a way to challenge their former way of thinking without getting into the nitty gritty of Christian history. She might cover it though. I really need to make a post about different YouTubers I recommend.

[Dsred19]

23 hours ago, Fuego said:

Believers today forget that the Bible god, like other old gods, were generally patterned after humans, with jealousy, fatigue, exasperation, rage, anger, hatred, lust, love of BBQ, and a body, etc. How a tribal Middle-Eastern deity became so popular and so perfect despite these traits is quite a story. Why humans can still believe any of it to be real is a whole field of study. 

One conclusion I make from this observation is that there is no way the Bible can be truly the word of god or Christianity the one true religion. You would expect such a book or being to transcend human culture, time, and history. However it is clear that the Bible, and Christianity itself is always changing to reflect the culture and opinions of the times. Yes the fundamentalists vehemently fight against that but even today, more and more churches are accepting the lgbtq+ community. Even the view of divorce has changed over time despite it being extremely taboo just a generation or two ago.l, despite Jesus in the Bible being specifically against divorce in most circumstances.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

15 hours ago, Dsred19 said:

One conclusion I make from this observation is that there is no way the Bible can be truly the word of god or Christianity the one true religion. 

 

Is this a new awareness?  Or is this a rhetorical statement?    I ask because I haven't figured out whether you are truley a newbie looking for validation, or have already figured out these things.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 8/6/2024 at 7:59 AM, Fuego said:

. How a tribal Middle-Eastern deity became so popular and so perfect despite these traits is quite a story. Why humans can still believe any of it to be real is a whole field of study. 

 

I decided it is due to human conditioning.  The Cathoic church more or less "created" Jesus, or perhaps embellished the story, and haphazardly connected the Jewish religion to him.  Who knows for sure what went on??  But one thing for sure is that through the centuries they almost annihilated any other religion, or "christian" teaching they did not agree with, in the western world of that age, and force fed their version to the people.  If an uneducated society goes through several generations of only hearing one version of religion, (or other truth) That becomes the TRUTH!!  The only thing they know!  And the longer it has gone on, the harder it is to displace, especially if they believe they will go to Hell if they try.  The radical Muslims have done an excelent job of accomplishing what the Christians did in the middle ages.  They did it, and still do it by conditioning entire societies, and are masters at conditioning people to be afraid of even questioning what is going on.  And Hitler showed us how easily people can be fooled, divided, and convinced to get rid of others, by deeming others to be evil, "different" and dangerous.  (does that sound like some politicians today)?  

 

My philosophy is that in general, people have not morally evolved to the point that they think logically for themselves.  Many are followers that go with group think.  We are social animals and want to be part of the "in crowd".  And are conditioned from birth as to who the in crowd is.  And the people in power want to keep things just as they are.  NO EDUCATION FOR LOGICAL, CRITICAL THINKING!  But glorify glamorous heros and heroines for us to follow, and buy their products.

 

Dang!  Got on my soap box, and couldn't get off.

[Dsred19]

7 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

Is this a new awareness?  Or is this a rhetorical statement?    I ask because I haven't figured out whether you are truley a newbie looking for validation, or have already figured out these things.

Both. I feel like a lot of things I have figured out but at the same time I do wish for some validation as to if my conclusions are indeed logical.  My husband, in laws ( who I am very close to) and most friends still believe, so I have few people I can bounce ideas off of. Living in the Bible Belt, most people don’t understand the deconstruction process I am going through, nor do they want to. So yes, I have figured out a good bit but the discussion here helps me see I am not crazy.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 hours ago, Dsred19 said:

Both. I feel like a lot of things I have figured out but at the same time I do wish for some validation as to if my conclusions are indeed logical.  My husband, in laws ( who I am very close to) and most friends still believe, so I have few people I can bounce ideas off of. Living in the Bible Belt, most people don’t understand the deconstruction process I am going through, nor do they want to. So yes, I have figured out a good bit but the discussion here helps me see I am not crazy.

Thanks for clarifying that.  My 83 year old brain is slow to comprehend things at times, and memory is starting to fail me.  

 

No, you are not crazy!  People with a logical mind that is open to different ideas are quick to find the inconsistancies in the Bible.  And if they have looked at ancient history and religions it is obvious that plagiarism has occured.  Several stories/themes in christianity are very similar to older stories.

 

[Crithin8]

On 8/4/2024 at 6:35 PM, Wertbag said:

 

It is often said that God is all-loving or all-good

 

I would rather share this life with a Christian that believed this rather than one who enjoyed a justified OT god or a second coming Jesus that broke up the nations with a rod of iron. 
 

There are issues with the belief though. Imperfect people do imperfect work. The God of the Bible is not logically perfect. 
 

I’ll present an argument: If God was aware of evil and suffering within it’s entity and separated from such to become that which is desirable, then both sides are represented. 
 

Now the argument assumes an actual God. Considering God as a projection of one’s self then the individual is making internal distinctions of good and evil in relation to societal norms and physiologic schema. Generally a form of dissociation. 
 

About hell: borrowed from a polytheistic belief and reworked into a monotheistic belief. Like so many other beliefs in the Bible.