Could we do better than God?

[Wertbag]

I've heard yet another apologist say, "atheists have no objective morality, so how can they say anything is evil or that suffering is bad?".  But I'm always left wondering if they themselves would deny those things?  If they will say that suffering and evil exist, then the question of morality still stands.  God has done numerous things which are horrific or at best said things which are vague enough to be used for any justification the reader wishes to apply.

Can we really say this is the best that an all-powerful, all-loving God could do?  If you ask people what they would do if they were God for a day, would you find a single one who wouldn't be able to think of numerous ways to make the world a better, safer, happier place?

 

Cancer is horrific.  Imagine if it never existed.  No babies dying of it, no families torn apart, no slow death for victims.  It is claimed God could eradicate it if He wished but has never deemed the suffering that it causes to be worthy of His intervention.  If I was God for a day, that would be first on my list to click my fingers and make vanish forever.  Did you know there are some animals who do not get cancer?  "There are examples of long-lived mammals who simply never develop cancer. These include horses, cows, whales, bats, elephants, blind mole rats, and naked mole rats".  So the Christians must believe that God allows humans to suffer through this disease, while numerous other mammal species avoid it altogether.  Yet it is said we are His chosen people, made in His image?

 

What if the black plague hadn't ravaged Europe?  What if Spanish flu hadn't devastated the west after WW1?  What if the millions of lives lost to malaria had never caught that disease or the mosquitos simply never existed?

God is the creator, so every disease, every poison and every predator was His design.  Or if you want to say Satan did it, or perhaps sin entering the world, then He had to allow it and while being all-loving was willing to set the world on a path that leads to endless suffering.

 

We don't have to make a perfect world to do better than God, we only need to fix one single cause of needless suffering.  The removal of a single disease or a single parasite and the world will be a better place than the one that God made.  Humans cured polio, while God inflicted it upon us.  Humans invented chemotherapy, radiation therapy and surgical interventions, while God let thousands die for centuries without lifting a finger.

 

Perhaps we could just tweak the bible in a tiny way, putting "You shall not own another human as property" in the 10 commandments.  Doing so removes all arguments and puts Christianity on the right side of the anti-slavery debate.  Or perhaps simply change Genesis so that it either matches science or clearly states that it is a creation myth and should not be taken literally.  If I were God for a day I would make sure there was one church, one bible, and one clear understanding of what the message was.  

 

Some say the problem of evil is best directed at such natural evils, as it removes the freewill defense, but equally being God for a day you could make all serial killers have a heart attack and all child rapists be hit by lightning.  Jeffrey Dahmer could have been hit by a car before he started killing, or Adolf could have perished in WW1.  God has the power to stop such horrific people from carrying out their crimes, while not effecting freewill.  He does nothing, either because He can't or won't, either way conflicts with the what the Christians are trying to tell us.  This is why the problem of evil remains such a damning argument thousands of years after it was first put forth.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

I've heard yet another apologist say, "atheists have no objective morality, so how can they say anything is evil or that suffering is bad?".  But I'm always left wondering if they themselves would deny those things?  If they will say that suffering and evil exist, then the question of morality still stands.  God has done numerous things which are horrific or at best said things which are vague enough to be used for any justification the reader wishes to apply.

Can we really say this is the best that an all-powerful, all-loving God could do?  If you ask people what they would do if they were God for a day, would you find a single one who wouldn't be able to think of numerous ways to make the world a better, safer, happier place?

 

 

 

Wertbag,

 

We have evidence in this very forum that Christians know that their OWN morality is better than that displayed by god in the bible.  I can point you to the thread and the page where this happened, if you like.  But for now I'll just report what happened.

 

Edgarcito and I were debating events in the garden of Eden and I put it to him that god failed in his duty of care towards his two, newly-created children, Adam and Eve.  I asked Ed that if his own children were playing in his garden and a rattlesnake was gliding towards them, what would he do?  Would he he let the snake harm them or would he protect them?  He answered that he would shoot it dead to protect his children.

 

You see?  Edgaricto would do what god failed to do and he's just a man.  His morality is superior to god's.  God has no excuses because he's all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful.  He knew, even before creation, that Satan/the Serpent was going to be intent on bringing harm, not just to Adam and Eve, but to every human and all the world.  But he did nothing to prevent it, blamed and cursed his own children and then cast them out into the wilderness.

 

It's one thing to get a Christian to demonstrate that their morality is better than their god's.  But its another thing entirely to get them to publicly admit it.  Ed won't do it.

 

And I believe that this is what we are up against in our debates with Christians.  They know, in their heart of hearts, that their god falls short of their own moral standards.  But because they are so emotionally invested in their dogmatic beliefs, they fight tooth and nail to keep them.  Even if it means making unsupported assertions, flawed arguments and illogical statements.

 

Edgarcito wanted to make his children's world a better, safer and happier place by killing the rattlesnake.

 

Why oh why, didn't his god want to do the same thing?

 

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

And god could bother to actually talk to each person. No mental illness. No opioids needed or desired. Sanitation, no blood sacrifices, instruct us about how reality works, no games of obedience and cursing with death, and so on. It's weird that an old tribal Middle Eastern deity is still being promoted in 2024. You'd think we would have at least had Odin or something from Britain, and then seen through that long ago. 

[TABA]

The fact that the suffering of humans and animals continues in such abundance,  two millennia after Jesus supposedly defeated sin and evil and established his father’s kingdom, is by far the best evidence that the god of Christianity is a figment of the human imagination.  Other arguments against Christianity pale in comparison. 

[older]

1 hour ago, TABA said:

The fact that the suffering of humans and animals continues in such abundance,  two millennia after Jesus supposedly defeated sin and evil and established his father’s kingdom, is by far the best evidence that the god of Christianity is a figment of the human imagination.  Other arguments against Christianity pale in comparison. 

  

If I could give this ten likes I would. I'm going to copy that first sentence and try to memorize it for when it needs to be said.

[Dsred19]

15 hours ago, TABA said:

The fact that the suffering of humans and animals continues in such abundance,  two millennia after Jesus supposedly defeated sin and evil and established his father’s kingdom, is by far the best evidence that the god of Christianity is a figment of the human imagination.  Other arguments against Christianity pale in comparison. 

Absolutely. Isn’t there a verse where Jesus claims that “this generation will not pass away” before his kingdom comes? Well 2000 years, still nothing….

[♦ Fuego ♦]

17 hours ago, TABA said:

The fact that the suffering of humans and animals continues in such abundance,  two millennia after Jesus supposedly defeated sin and evil and established his father’s kingdom, is by far the best evidence that the god of Christianity is a figment of the human imagination.  Other arguments against Christianity pale in comparison. 

Including all the horrific suffering caused by the church. The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the brutal suppression and enslavement of natives, the massive abuse of children and protection of the abusers, to name a few.

[jedi]

On 8/4/2024 at 8:00 AM, Dsred19 said:

Absolutely. Isn’t there a verse where Jesus claims that “this generation will not pass away” before his kingdom comes? Well 2000 years, still nothing….

 

I believe Jesus told the disciples that he would come back in his lifetime. I also believe the antichrist was The Emperor Nero. Which would make it time for a sequel to the Bible. @JKROWLING 

 

I also found it odd that Jesus' last words (afaik) were "father why have you forsaken me". That must have been his moment where he realized no one was coming to save him.

 

God drowned his children. I absolutely believe most rational adults could do better than Yahweh. Shoot, a child could do better. 

[pantheory]

On 7/28/2024 at 3:09 AM, Wertbag said:

I've heard yet another apologist say, "atheists have no objective morality, so how can they say anything is evil or that suffering is bad?".  But I'm always left wondering if they themselves would deny those things?  If they will say that suffering and evil exist, then the question of morality still stands.  God has done numerous things which are horrific or at best said things which are vague enough to be used for any justification the reader wishes to apply.

Can we really say this is the best that an all-powerful, all-loving God could do?  If you ask people what they would do if they were God for a day, would you find a single one who wouldn't be able to think of numerous ways to make the world a better, safer, happier place?

 

Cancer is horrific.  Imagine if it never existed.  No babies dying of it, no families torn apart, no slow death for victims.  It is claimed God could eradicate it if He wished but has never deemed the suffering that it causes to be worthy of His intervention.  If I was God for a day, that would be first on my list to click my fingers and make vanish forever.  Did you know there are some animals who do not get cancer?  "There are examples of long-lived mammals who simply never develop cancer. These include horses, cows, whales, bats, elephants, blind mole rats, and naked mole rats".  So the Christians must believe that God allows humans to suffer through this disease, while numerous other mammal species avoid it altogether.  Yet it is said we are His chosen people, made in His image?

 

What if the black plague hadn't ravaged Europe?  What if Spanish flu hadn't devastated the west after WW1?  What if the millions of lives lost to malaria had never caught that disease or the mosquitos simply never existed?

God is the creator, so every disease, every poison and every predator was His design.  Or if you want to say Satan did it, or perhaps sin entering the world, then He had to allow it and while being all-loving was willing to set the world on a path that leads to endless suffering.

 

We don't have to make a perfect world to do better than God, we only need to fix one single cause of needless suffering.  The removal of a single disease or a single parasite and the world will be a better place than the one that God made.  Humans cured polio, while God inflicted it upon us.  Humans invented chemotherapy, radiation therapy and surgical interventions, while God let thousands die for centuries without lifting a finger.

 

Perhaps we could just tweak the bible in a tiny way, putting "You shall not own another human as property" in the 10 commandments.  Doing so removes all arguments and puts Christianity on the right side of the anti-slavery debate.  Or perhaps simply change Genesis so that it either matches science or clearly states that it is a creation myth and should not be taken literally.  If I were God for a day I would make sure there was one church, one bible, and one clear understanding of what the message was.  

 

Some say the problem of evil is best directed at such natural evils, as it removes the freewill defense, but equally being God for a day you could make all serial killers have a heart attack and all child rapists be hit by lightning.  Jeffrey Dahmer could have been hit by a car before he started killing, or Adolf could have perished in WW1.  God has the power to stop such horrific people from carrying out their crimes, while not effecting freewill.  He does nothing, either because He can't or won't, either way conflicts with the what the Christians are trying to tell us.  This is why the problem of evil remains such a damning argument thousands of years after it was first put forth.

 

I agree with your point that almost any moralist could do better than the biblical God if they had the power to do so, but I'm pretty sure that almost everybody would also have very different ideas on how to do so.