Drawn to being vegetarian?

[Dsred19]

Anyone else found they are a bit drawn toward vegetarian or more ecologically sound living as they deconverted? I have tried going vegetarian on and off over the years and have never been able to stick with it. But since letting go of my Christian beliefs, I suddenly find myself wanting to try again. I think it is the realization that I want to do less harm, but also that no god is going to save us, it is up to humans. I still don’t know if I can stick with full blown vegetarian all the time but I have definitely cut back a lot.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

I've tended toward being vegetarian for years, not necessarily due to deconversion. Personal preference mostly but it does make ecological sense. Not to mention moral sense, amirite? 

 

One vegetarian friend told me she never 'eats anything with a face'. 

[older]

"Vegetarian" is an old Indian word... it means "poor hunter."

[☆ pantheory ☆]

On 7/13/2024 at 6:36 AM, Dsred19 said:

Anyone else found they are a bit drawn toward vegetarian or more ecologically sound living as they deconverted? I have tried going vegetarian on and off over the years and have never been able to stick with it. But since letting go of my Christian beliefs, I suddenly find myself wanting to try again. I think it is the realization that I want to do less harm, but also that no god is going to save us, it is up to humans. I still don’t know if I can stick with full blown vegetarian all the time but I have definitely cut back a lot.

 

Yes, I've been a vegetarian for many decades for moral reasons, rather than health or ecological reasons.  As an atheist I believe I'm an animal like all others and don't want to hurt, kill, or eat animals because I like the taste of them. I get plenty of protein from vegetables and milk products. It's very easy for me. But if a hamburger is in the fridge and going to waste because others think it's too old, but if I think it's OK, I will eat it because I don't like that the animal was killed and then part or all of it thrown away because someone enjoys eating meat but didn't feel like eating it at the time.

 

I think if you stop eating meat for moral reasons (like a Vegan) rather than just for health or ecological reasons, I think it will be easier for you to stick to such a diet, at least it was for me

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Not personally. I do honor the planet and the cycles of life that have evolved here (and possibly elsewhere). But so many in the animal kingdom are carnivores, and humans have been omnivores for as far back as we can trace that it seems natural to also include that in my diet. Life eats life, be it animal or other. When I watch big cats take down prey, it is a violent purposeful attack with the intent of killing and eating (and they don't always kill first). Orcas even kill for fun. Most of us are separated from the killing part of our meat consumption, but that's fairly new in humanity's timeline. But when a person feels something enough to choose differently, I respect that also. We have the ability to choose to not kill today, to try and find ways of being that are based on kindness to animals. The psychedelic journeys I've had seemed to always include a sense of oneness with ALL life, so that plays into most of my daily life now. 

[Dsred19]

13 hours ago, older said:

"Vegetarian" is an old Indian word... it means "poor hunter."

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I stopped red meat for health reasons.  cholesterol got too high.  And am telling you from experience it will clog your arteries.

[older]

On 7/14/2024 at 6:18 AM, Dsred19 said:

You know, Dsred19, what they call the vegan diet? Compost.

 

When we went to Texas for the eclipse I saw this bumper sticker: " Eat Beef. The West wasn't won on salad."

[☆ pantheory ☆]

3 hours ago, older said:

You know, Dsred19, what they call the vegan diet? Compost.

 

When we went to Texas for the eclipse I saw this bumper sticker: " Eat Beef. The West wasn't won on salad."

 

Your right, but that's how I won the west, by eating composted veggies and fruit.

[Myrkhoos]

Hi.

 

My view about animals is on a constant dyamic, I have to say. Became vegetarian for the fasting part of religion also health then kept it out of a sense of compassion towards animals, but I m not saying that is wholly justified necessarily.

 

I don't think how other animals behave is the end all be all argument. It is useful and insightful but, at the end of the day, I'm neither a gorrila nor a leopard. Also I am not that sure animals actually perceive life/death as do we, even if there are speculations based on behaviour.

 

However, I am fairly sure that industrial factory farming is a bad thing, no matter how you look at it, ecologically, morally, health reasons. The animal grows up in highly unnatural situation and is in distress.

 

I think that other animals are not our equals, nor are they just to be used solely as inanimate tools. Because of this greyzone, it is hard for me to have a very clear coherent worldview on it, may need to reflect, meditate, read, talk more about it.

 

But, I do think we should try to limit the suffering caused to them. Like I'm against torturing animals for fun, I think that should be illegal. For the animals, and for the humans as it is a very bad behaviour to engage in, it transforms you in bad ways.

 

But is hunting animals, of course not to the point of extinction, and growing free range domestic ones immoral? I'm not so sure of that. Tend more to the yes, but I could see an argument by which there is a symbiosis, yes some of them die and we eat them, but the truth is probable more survive then being in the wild, especially if they are cared for. But at least to acknolowdge the life and death aspect of it, and not treat it as steaks magically appearing in the plate. So, even in animal killing for food, I do think there should be care, restraint, respect and compassion, which should be educated in culture and enforced by laws.

 

So be humane to them, but not treat them exactly as humans. I think I m right in the middle of the spectrum probably in my attitude :)).

[◊ Weezer ◊]

57 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

 

So be humane to them, but not treat them exactly as humans. I think I m right in the middle of the spectrum probably in my attitude :)).

 

I agree.  Growing up on an old fashioned farm with several kinds of free range animals I can tell you they had very good lives and were happy to the point of being beloved pets.   And for the most part didn’t have to worry about predators.  But we did lose some chickens to coyotes and hawks. 

[older]

Myrkhoos, you make some thoughtful and interesting points. I sometimes think of indigenous peoples who hunted for food and respected their prey, and had rituals about the hunt and the kill. They took what they needed and didn't waste anything. As I understand it, the Native Americans on the Great Plains hunted buffalo and used every part of that animal. Here in America today, according to the FDA, food waste is between 30 and 40 percent. Meanwhile, according to NPR, in 2022 17 million households in the US were food insecure.

[Myrkhoos]

20 hours ago, older said:

Myrkhoos, you make some thoughtful and interesting points. I sometimes think of indigenous peoples who hunted for food and respected their prey, and had rituals about the hunt and the kill. They took what they needed and didn't waste anything. As I understand it, the Native Americans on the Great Plains hunted buffalo and used every part of that animal. Here in America today, according to the FDA, food waste is between 30 and 40 percent. Meanwhile, according to NPR, in 2022 17 million households in the US were food insecure.

I read that Native Americans started to hunt en masse when they had a lucrative trade for fur/ hides with Europeans. Lucrative/ imposed in various extent. I'm not a glorifier of low technology cultures in any fashion, but I do think close contact and depedency on Wildlife/ nature makes one more respectful towards them. On that note, I read indigenous Hawaians had death penalty induced tabus on fishing in certain seasons. Also native Siberian tribes had beliefs that nature gods would punish you if you hunt more than you need. And, not going full animistic, but one look at the modern world consuming patterns - yeah, there sure are consequences. 

 

 

[older]

10 hours ago, Myrkhoos said:

I read that Native Americans started to hunt en masse when they had a lucrative trade for fur/ hides with Europeans. Lucrative/ imposed in various extent

I vote for "imposed." Read Howard Zinn's book, A People's History of the United States, and An Indigenous People's History of the United States, by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. These are not fun books. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

14 hours ago, older said:

I vote for "imposed." Read Howard Zinn's book, A People's History of the United States,

I have had that book for decades. ***shudder*** and I agree with you. 

[Myrkhoos]

On 7/23/2024 at 4:56 PM, moxieflux66 said:

I have had that book for decades. ***shudder*** and 

On 7/23/2024 at 2:44 AM, older said:

I vote for "imposed." Read Howard Zinn's book, A People's History of the United States, and An Indigenous People's History of the United States, by Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. These are not fun books. 

 

I haven't read the book but have heard of Howard Zinn. Seems he had his detractors acussing him of being heavily biased. Which would not surprise me. Hardly any historical topic like this is without controversies.

 

 

But I won't derail the topic. 

 

Mechanization and urbanization clearly affect human perception of the non mechanized non urban natural world.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

What is in the best interest of life in general, for the whole planet, over long periods of time, is a very complex subject.  It seems that too many humans are extremely near sighted, and wanting instant gratification.  The focus is on what ME AND MY "TRIBE" WANT.  Not on what is NEEDED for the best interest of the whole, over a long period of time.  Ranging from small personal stuff, to killing each other.

 

Perhaps our moral evolution has a LONG way to go!!!    Myself included.  I splurged yesterday at a birthday party on red meat and sugar filled desert, knowing it was NOT in the best interest of my health, especially being diabetic for 56 years.  And drove a gasoline powered car to the party which experts tell us is contributing to the warming of the planet, which is not in the long term best interest of our planet, and our societies.  WHY???  Why do we continue to do those things??

 

On 7/13/2024 at 8:36 AM, Dsred19 said:

I suddenly find myself wanting to try again. I think it is the realization that I want to do less harm, but also that no god is going to save us, it is up to humans. I still don’t know if I can stick with full blown vegetarian all the time but I have definitely cut back a lot.

You are not alone in your struggle!!   There are times when it crosses my mind, that perhaps there is a bit of truth in the doctrine of original sin.  We actually at times sabotage what is in our own best interest, even when we know we are doing it.  And sometimes we are in denial that we are doing it, even when evidence shows it is not in our best interests. 
 

I don’t want to sidetrack the thread, but is “godliness” achieved when we start honestly trying to do what is in the best interest of mankind??  Is that what will advance our moral evolution?

[jedi]

Has anyone heard of Bryan Johnson and his campaign "don't die"? lol

 

I can't say deconverting has led me to a vegetarian lifestyle. But it has given me more awareness of my overall temporary nature and the need to have conviction to make decisions that lead to good health in general. As opposed to believing my body was immortal. 

[Myrkhoos]

On 8/12/2024 at 11:09 PM, Weezer said:

What is in the best interest of life in general, for the whole planet, over long periods of time, is a very complex subject.  It seems that too many humans are extremely near sighted, and wanting instant gratification.  The focus is on what ME AND MY "TRIBE" WANT.  Not on what is NEEDED for the best interest of the whole, over a long period of time.  Ranging from small personal stuff, to killing each other.

 

Perhaps our moral evolution has a LONG way to go!!!    Myself included.  I splurged yesterday at a birthday party on red meat and sugar filled desert, knowing it was NOT in the best interest of my health, especially being diabetic for 56 years.  And drove a gasoline powered car to the party which experts tell us is contributing to the warming of the planet, which is not in the long term best interest of our planet, and our societies.  WHY???  Why do we continue to do those things??

 

You are not alone in your struggle!!   There are times when it crosses my mind, that perhaps there is a bit of truth in the doctrine of original sin.  We actually at times sabotage what is in our own best interest, even when we know we are doing it.  And sometimes we are in denial that we are doing it, even when evidence shows it is not in our best interests. 
 

I don’t want to sidetrack the thread, but is “godliness” achieved when we start honestly trying to do what is in the best interest of mankind??  Is that what will advance our moral evolution?

That is one reason why, unfortunately, I think, in some circumstances, we need to collectively voluntarily undertake prohibitions. Outlaw sugar, outlaw gasoline cars. We are not strong enough to always resist the temptation in front of us. Of course the whole problem is not seeing, is the exact implementation. Like I can see a huge tumor on a scan with minimal training probably. Operating/ treating it is a whole different story. But some issues are too big to be left to individual choices.

 

Global warming requires worldwide decades long cooperation. For example. It is a place where you need Soviet style planning. I m using that term provocatevly but intentionally. 

 

Pandemics is another such case. 

 

Is that a road that could easily go to totalitarism? Yes. Build as many safeguards as needed. Will there be mistakes? Yes. Build ways for course corection.

 

But the other can also lead to widespread death and suffering because some brainwashed portion of the US( and not only) thinks global warming is a hoax and a plot to destroy America. Or they liked their old coal mining towns or smth .You can t let insane people dictate policy.