walterpthefirst Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 Just now, Edgarcito said: They are my thoughts Walter. You know I think differently than most. You can't declare my clarification of my thoughts wrong as they were mine to begin with....thx. And if you will re-read, that's not what I said. I've simply been pointing out the logic problems in your posts, Ed. It's not me that's declaring you to be wrong. Logic is doing that. Logic applies to everyone equally. But if you want have your own logic that works by your rules, please go ahead. If you go down that road be prepared to meet people who believe in alternative facts. That road is for people who can't accept reality as it is, but must have it the way they want. Which the Prof pointed out to you earlier. Walt has demonstrated that we do not have free will using scripture in this very thread; and I have demonstrated it using logic in the thread linked below. You're welcome to continue claiming that we do; but unless you can refute either of our arguments, or present a compelling argument of your own, then all you're really doing is trying to pretend the reality you really really really wish was true instead of accepting the reality that actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: So you're saying Eve was a sinner for her potential? No. That was your question. Remember? You wrote it 2 hours ago. Let me ask this. Is the potential for sin, sin? Does the potential for or ability to sin equal imperfection? You're saying yes I gather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Might we star fresh Walter....that we might understand each other. Eve could except input without understanding good and evil. Essentially, she had the ability to accept good input or evil input...she and Adam were created this way. Without understanding any of the two except through interaction. Do you agree or disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 27 Super Moderator Share Posted June 27 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Eve could except input without understanding good and evil. Essentially, she had the ability to accept good input or evil input...she and Adam were created this way. I disagree. Yes, she had the ability to accept input (I'm not sure how she would except it); but there is no way she could have differentiated between "good" input and "evil" input without a rudimentary understanding of both. Same as with youth versus maturity. All she could do was accept the input and act on it. This takes "free will" out of the equation; because Eve is now reduced to a simple computer program that merely accepts commands and acts on them without discernment or discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I disagree. Yes, she had the ability to accept input (I'm not sure how she would except it); but there is no way she could have differentiated between "good" input and "evil" input without a rudimentary understanding of both. Same as with youth versus maturity. All she could do was accept the input and act on it. This takes "free will" out of the equation; because Eve is now reduced to a simple computer program that merely accepts commands and acts on them without discernment or discretion. That's what I'm proposing in my question. All she/they knew was input, via verbal or experiential of God and the serpent. Sorry, accept....I had a lot of beer last night. That's where we disagree I gather. I don't know that it removed the free will nor was intentional by God to create them this way, to fail. She chose freely that I understand given both inputs and experiences. I don't see where he "overshadowed" her or where Satan supernaturally interfered.....that her free will was not hers.....unlike Mary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 27 Super Moderator Share Posted June 27 5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: That's where we disagree I gather. I don't know that it removed the free will nor was intentional by God to create them this way, to fail. She chose freely that I understand given both inputs and experiences. I don't see where he "overshadowed" her or where Satan supernaturally interfered.....that her free will was not hers.....unlike Mary. It is possible that you do not understand that "free" literally means "without hinderance" and that NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE was a major hinderance to their choice. But, if all they knew was input, then free will doesn't even enter into the equation. Does AI have free will? Does the gas chromatograph in your lab have free will? Or your Nintendo? No. All they do is accept input and act on it. If that is all Adam and Eve could do, then they never had free will to begin with. Your question destroys the conclusion you're wanting to accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: It is possible that you do not understand that "free" literally means "without hinderance" and that NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE was a major hinderance to their choice. But, if all they knew was input, then free will doesn't even enter into the equation. Does AI have free will? Does the gas chromatograph in your lab have free will? Or your Nintendo? No. All they do is accept input and act on it. If that is all Adam and Eve could do, then they never had free will to begin with. Your question destroys the conclusion you're wanting to accept. So you're saying they were created with a bias? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 27 Super Moderator Share Posted June 27 17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: So you're saying they were created with a bias? No. I am not saying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 13 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No. I am not saying that. Thanks, we could also say that no experience is actually more free THAN with knowledge.....just a thought...i.e. unhindered by knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 27 Super Moderator Share Posted June 27 Umm... okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 6 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Might we star fresh Walter....that we might understand each other. Very well. I have been addressing the logical impossibility of the what you said about Eve, concerning youth and maturity. I pointed out that maturity did not exist in Eden and so she had nothing to compare against youth - assuming that she understood what youth was. You argument failed for that reason. But if you wish to restart, that's ok by me. 6 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Eve could except input without understanding good and evil. Essentially, she had the ability to accept good input or evil input...she and Adam were created this way. Scripture tells us that god placed Adam in the garden to work it and keep it. It also tells us that he needed a helpmate to carry out this task. So, unless god created them with gardening skills hardwired into their brains he would have had to have made them capable of accepting his teaching (input) of how to work and look after the garden. Therefore we can safely conclude that they were able to accept this kind of morally neutral (neither good nor bad) input. I'm in agreement with the Prof on two points. First, if they had no proper understanding of good and evil until after they ate the fruit then they had no way of discerning good from evil before that moment. We've been here before, btw. I recall explaining to you a long time ago that before they ate, Satan and god would have appeared exactly the same (morally) to Adam and Eve. Which is why she entertained Satan's question about god's command. At that moment she could not tell if Satan was evil or good. Nor could she tell if he was lying or telling the truth. The same would have applied to god. She would not have been able to tell if god was good or evil. Nor could she tell if god was lying or telling the truth. That's what it means to have no moral compass. You cannot know if others are doing good or evil and you cannot know if you are doing good or evil. This is the condition of Adam and Eve's moral sense before either of them ate the forbidden fruit. Which is why they couldn't know who was the good guy and who was the bad guy out of Satan and god. So, because knew that they had no way of knowing if their actions were good or evil, when god warned them about the forbidden tree he didn't couch his warning in terms of good and evil. His warning would have fallen on deaf ears. So, instead of saying, "You are doing GOOD if you obey and do not eat, but you are doing EVIL if you disobey and eat" he just told them that they would die if they ate. You see? There's no moral message at all in god's warning. Nothing in there that they could use to learn what good and evil were. No moral teaching from god at all. Why? Because he knew that he made them unable to properly understand good and evil. Knowing this he just gave them a warning that was bereft of any moral guidance or tuition. "Obey or be punished with death." This should be more than enough for you to realize that god himself knew that Adam and Eve couldn't properly understand the moral concepts of good and evil until after disobeyed him. Surely you can see that now, Ed? And this is why I also agree with the Prof's second point. With no way of understanding good and evil and no way of telling them apart all Eve could do was to listen to input from god and input from Satan and then make an uninformed decision without discernment or discretion. That is not a free willed decision. To make a free willed decision requires understanding of what you are choosing between and also an understanding of the consequences of your choice. Eve had neither. Nor did Adam. We've also been here before. In the past you've asserted that Adam and Eve didn't require understanding. That they just should have obeyed without understanding. But you can't have it both ways, Ed. You can't say in an old thread that they should have just obeyed without understanding and then, in this thread, say that Eden was a place where god taught them moral lessons, giving them understanding through teaching. Those are two contradictory things. But I do agree with the Prof's conclusion about your argument. If all Adam and Eve could do was accept input without understanding the morality of that input, then you've destroyed their free will and reduced them to a pair of robots. And I presume you DO want to argue that they had free will? 6 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Without understanding any of the two except through interaction. Do you agree or disagree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: That's what I'm proposing in my question. All she/they knew was input, via verbal or experiential of God and the serpent. Sorry, accept....I had a lot of beer last night. That's where we disagree I gather. I don't know that it removed the free will nor was intentional by God to create them this way, to fail. She chose freely that I understand given both inputs and experiences. I don't see where he "overshadowed" her or where Satan supernaturally interfered.....that her free will was not hers.....unlike Mary. Comparing Mary to Eve is like comparing apples with oranges. You can't do it. The difference between Mary and Eve is that one woman knew and properly understood the moral decision she was making to obey god, whereas the other one didn't. Mary was born with a moral sense and was also raised with moral teaching from her parents, Anna and Joachim. Eve was not created with a moral sense and received no moral teaching from her father, god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 27 Author Share Posted June 27 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Might we star fresh Walter....that we might understand each other. Eve could except input without understanding good and evil. Essentially, she had the ability to accept good input or evil input...she and Adam were created this way. Without understanding any of the two except through interaction. Do you agree or disagree? So my answer is No, I disagree. Eve had no moral interaction, tuition, instruction or teaching from god. Why would he bother to do that when he made her unable to understand the moral concepts of good and evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 28 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: So my answer is No, I disagree. Eve had no moral interaction, tuition, instruction or teaching from god. Why would he bother to do that when he made her unable to understand the moral concepts of good and evil? She did accept input. And I doubt the input from God or Satan was neutral. So I don't know what you want to do with that. And you missed my point completely where I said that she and Adam were like hardware with no software.... install good and evil AFTER she at the fruit. Nonetheless, she experienced God and Satan. She may not have had moral discernment, but again, I doubt they used supernatural powers to feed her neutral conversation... But that you mention it, however they were created, she selected between the two with whatever criteria humanity was created with. So "will" does have some sort of innate selection criteria even in the Garden...moral discernment or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 27 Super Moderator Share Posted June 27 Nah. It's still an unworkable analogy. god would have known when he wrote the code and uploaded it what the output would be. Because he's omniscient. That takes free will right back out of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Nah. It's still an unworkable analogy. god would have known when he wrote the code and uploaded it what the output would be. Because he's omniscient. That takes free will right back out of the equation. Then how did she select? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Nah. It's still an unworkable analogy. god would have known when he wrote the code and uploaded it what the output would be. Because he's omniscient. That takes free will right back out of the equation. But you already alluded to no bias without explanation… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: But you already alluded to no bias without explanation… And I still haven't claimed there was a bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 25 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Then how did she select? Walt and I have both provided answers to this question, based on scripture. If you don't want to read through the entire thread, you're welcome to read the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 I'll refresh us.....she "saw" right after visiting with Satan. Her hardware was swayed to selection. On top of that, she realized good, pleasing, and desirable. So she either realized them then after visiting with Satan, or she realized them as a function of creation. You care to speculate on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 26 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: You care to speculate on that? No. Because, as I told you before, Walt and I have already covered that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 9 hours ago, Edgarcito said: She did accept input. And I doubt the input from God or Satan was neutral. So I don't know what you want to do with that. What do I want to do that? I want you to show me this non-neutral input in the bible, Ed. Otherwise you're just asserting and speculating without evidence. 9 hours ago, Edgarcito said: And you missed my point completely where I said that she and Adam were like hardware with no software.... install good and evil AFTER she at the fruit. Well, ok then. But if they had no software to tell Satan and god apart with, then you are supporting what the Prof and I have been saying. That they were just a pair of robots with no free will, no ability to discern good from evil and no ability to understand the consequences of their actions. Is this really what you mean to say? 9 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Nonetheless, she experienced God and Satan. She may not have had moral discernment, but again, I doubt they used supernatural powers to feed her neutral conversation... Again, show me these non-neutral conversations from scripture. Otherwise you're still asserting and speculating without evidence. 9 hours ago, Edgarcito said: But that you mention it, however they were created, she selected between the two with whatever criteria humanity was created with. So "will" does have some sort of innate selection criteria even in the Garden...moral discernment or no. But you said it yourself, Ed. Before they ate their moral software was NOT installed. And it is this software that discerns morality. Adding 'will' into the mix doesn't help your case. Without that software they could not tell god and Satan apart. They couldn't tell good from evil and they couldn't understand the consequences of their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 9 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Then how did she select? According to Romans 11 : 32 she didn't select. God bound her will to make her disobey his commandment about the forbidden tree. In the absence of moral software all she could do was follow god's programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 9 hours ago, Edgarcito said: But you already alluded to no bias without explanation… Before they ate there was no need for Adam or Eve to be biased towards good or evil. Their wills had already been bound by god, forcing them to unwittingly disobey him. That is why, only after they ate, did they realize the full implications of what they had done. Before then, with no moral software to tell them they were doing wrong, they had no choice but to do what god had programmed them to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 8 hours ago, Edgarcito said: I'll refresh us.....she "saw" right after visiting with Satan. Her hardware was swayed to selection. If you mean after her conversation with Satan but before she ate, then you've contradicted yourself, Ed. You said that her moral software (which is needed to see right) was only installed after she ate. 8 hours ago, Edgarcito said: On top of that, she realized good, pleasing, and desirable. No, that's not what the bible says. Genesis 3 : 6 says that she saw that the fruit of the forbidden tree was 'good for food', not morally good. When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Moral goodness and fruit being good to eat are not the same thing. The bananas in my kitchen are good to eat, but they are not morally good. It is wrong and false to conflate these two different things. 8 hours ago, Edgarcito said: So she either realized them then after visiting with Satan, or she realized them as a function of creation. You care to speculate on that? Again, no. According to your own words Eve had no moral software installed until after she ate. So her conversation with Satan wouldn't have helped her realize anything moral. Without her moral software she couldn't tell good from evil or God from Satan. You are contradicting yourself again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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