Why would a perfect garden need anyone to look after it?

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

So you understand god's plan to violate their free will, as I've described to it you.

 

But you still assert that Adam and Eve had free will.

 

Please show the evidence from the bible where it says this.

I was wrong in accepting, repeating your word violate.  I do not agree with the use of that word....on record.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You said Eve was the mother of sin, mother of the bound essentially, a few posts back.  I'm not a s meticulous as you.  

 

No, I didn't say that.

 

I AM meticulous, even if you are not.

 

What I did was quote Genesis 3 : 20.

 

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

The true cause of sin was god because he is the one who did the binding.  He caused his innocent children to disobey him, making them guilty, so that he could have mercy on them.  But that mercy would be delayed by thousands of years.  Until long after they were dead and returned to the dust.

 

It's the one who does the binding into disobedience who is the one who is truly responsible and to blame.

 

Try thinking of it in these terms. Ed.

 

Who was ultimately responsible for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima?

The crewman on board the Enola Gay who pressed the button to drop the weapon?

The pilot, Colonel Paul Tibbets?

General Curtis LeMay, the head of the Air Force?

Or perhaps President Harry S. Truman, who had the words, 'The Buck Stops Here' on his desk?

 

It is ALWAYS the one in supreme authority has who is ultimately responsible for what happens on their watch.

 

In this case, that's god.

 

He is the true cause of sin because he wanted to make his children sin -  so that he could forgive them for doing so.

He allowed temptation in the form of the serpent into what should have been the safe space of the home in Eden.

He orchestrated everything.

 

He's the true cause of sin.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

If you think about it, we can even accept or reject those things, our subjection, that we have no control over.  So it's really a moot point that God has any blame in the matter...outside of we might have created a different experiment.

 

 

 

The buck stops with god.

[Edgarcito]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

The buck stops with god.

Yes, but it doesn't take our free will as you suggest.

[walterpthefirst]

12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I was wrong in accepting, repeating your word violate.  I do not agree with the use of that word....on record.  Thx.

 

Ok, noted.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

Yes, but it doesn't take our free will as you suggest.

 

I'm not suggesting it.

 

I'm reporting what the bible says in Romans 11 : 32.

 

God bound them into a state of disobedience.

 

That's what it says.

 

If you don't like the word violated there are others that adequately describe what he did to their free will.

 

Nullified it.  Neutralised it.  Overrode it.  Cancelled it out.  They all amount to the same thing.

 

He made sure that neither Adam nor Eve had the freedom or the ability to obey his command.

 

It's there in the bible, Ed.

 

I suggest you read it.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

39 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I'm not suggesting it.

 

I'm reporting what the bible says in Romans 11 : 32.

 

God bound them into a state of disobedience.

 

That's what it says.

 

If you don't like the word violated there are others that adequately describe what he did to their free will.

 

Nullified it.  Neutralised it.  Overrode it.  Cancelled it out.  They all amount to the same thing.

 

He made sure that neither Adam nor Eve had the freedom or the ability to obey his command.

 

It's there in the bible, Ed.

 

I suggest you read it.

 

 

Then please go back, because I missed it....where God bound Eve to sin.  Thx.

 

Edit:  Which is different than He subjected and she chose.

 

Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Then please go back, because I missed it....where God bound Eve to sin.  Thx.

 

Edit:  Which is different than He subjected and she chose.

 

Thx.

 

Ok, Ed.  I'll cut and paste what I wrote and then add a bit more explanation.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Finally, what about Adam and Eve?  In their case god bound them over to be disobedient too.  The logic of verse 32 ensures that.  Everyone means everyone.  If there had been any exceptions then Paul wouldn't have used the word, everyone.

 

Its important to remember that Paul was once Saul, a Pharisee of Pharisees, an expert in the Law and someone who knew the scriptures inside and out.  If there were any exceptions written down in the books of the Hebrew scriptures, then he would know about it.

 

And when you look at Genesis 3 : 20 it makes sense for god to have bound Adam and Eve over to disobedience.

 

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

Since we know from Romans 11 : 32 that god wanted to have mercy on all the living, where else should he start with that plan but with the mother of all the living?  

 

Now, I know that you have an interest in genetics Ed, so please consider this idea.  What if each generation originating from Adam and Eve inherited their disobedience gene?  That would mean that everyone in the entire world (biblically speaking) would inevitably become disobedient to god.  Which is exactly the outcome god wanted.  He wanted everyone to become guilty of disobedience so that he could have mercy on everyone, just as Romans 11 : 32 says.

 

Now we can see a grand overview of how god's great cosmic plan works.  First, make everyone guilty of disobedience, starting with Adam and Eve.  Later, incarnate himself as Jesus Christ and sacrifice himself so that his blood becomes the only way the guilty can become innocent.  Finally, as the judge of the world, pronounce everyone guilty of disobedience, but dispense mercy to those who are loved by him and withhold mercy to those who are not.

 

Can you see how it works, Ed?

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

The key to understanding why god bound Adam and Eve into a state of disobedience is to look at their differing roles in Eden.  Adam was the head of god's creation on Earth, with all living creatures and animals under him.  But Eve was destined to be his helpmate in the garden and the mother of all the living.  Or, putting it another way, the mother of the entire human race.

 

Therefore, if you want to make the entire human race guilty of disobedience, so that you can have mercy on everyone, where do you start?  The answer is, right at the beginning of humanity, with the first man and the first woman.

 

This is confirmed by the genealogies in Genesis 5 and also in the gospel of Luke, chapter 3.

 

Genesis 5 : 1 & 2

 

1This is the written account of Adam’s family line.  When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 

2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created.

 

All mankind is descended from Adam and Eve, so god had to start his binding of the entire human race with them.

 

Luke 3 : 23 - 38

 

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, 

24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,the son of Naggai, 

26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 

28 the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,the son of Levi, 

30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 

32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,

33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 

34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,

35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 

36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,

37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, 

38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam,

the son of God.

 

Again, all of mankind, including Jesus Christ himself, descends from Adam and Eve.

 

Therefore, since it was god's will and plan to make the all of mankind guilty of disobedience it naturally follows that there can be no exceptions.  Everyone means everyone.  Eve just happens to be one of the very first people that god did this to. 

 

Did she have a choice?  Well, did anyone else have a choice?  The answer is, of course, no.  If someone is imprisoned they can't exercise their free will to just walk out and exit the prison.  Their freedom to do that has been taken away from them.  It's nonsensical to say that prisoners locked in jail are free to leave.  No, they're not.  They're locked in there against their will.

 

Lets look at Romans 11 again.

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

See that Ed?  God imprisoned the entire Jewish race, his own chosen people, in a state of disobedience so that they could not accept Jesus as their Messiah, Saviour and Lord.

 

So if he is able and willing to do that it should be no trouble at all for him to do the same to the entire human race.  We're all imprisoned in sin and disobedience.  Every one of us.  Including Eve.

 

And none of us had any say or any choice in the matter. 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

37 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok, Ed.  I'll cut and paste what I wrote and then add a bit more explanation.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Finally, what about Adam and Eve?  In their case god bound them over to be disobedient too.  The logic of verse 32 ensures that.  Everyone means everyone.  If there had been any exceptions then Paul wouldn't have used the word, everyone.

 

Its important to remember that Paul was once Saul, a Pharisee of Pharisees, an expert in the Law and someone who knew the scriptures inside and out.  If there were any exceptions written down in the books of the Hebrew scriptures, then he would know about it.

 

And when you look at Genesis 3 : 20 it makes sense for god to have bound Adam and Eve over to disobedience.

 

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

Since we know from Romans 11 : 32 that god wanted to have mercy on all the living, where else should he start with that plan but with the mother of all the living?  

 

Now, I know that you have an interest in genetics Ed, so please consider this idea.  What if each generation originating from Adam and Eve inherited their disobedience gene?  That would mean that everyone in the entire world (biblically speaking) would inevitably become disobedient to god.  Which is exactly the outcome god wanted.  He wanted everyone to become guilty of disobedience so that he could have mercy on everyone, just as Romans 11 : 32 says.

 

Now we can see a grand overview of how god's great cosmic plan works.  First, make everyone guilty of disobedience, starting with Adam and Eve.  Later, incarnate himself as Jesus Christ and sacrifice himself so that his blood becomes the only way the guilty can become innocent.  Finally, as the judge of the world, pronounce everyone guilty of disobedience, but dispense mercy to those who are loved by him and withhold mercy to those who are not.

 

Can you see how it works, Ed?

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

The key to understanding why god bound Adam and Eve into a state of disobedience is to look at their differing roles in Eden.  Adam was the head of god's creation on Earth, with all living creatures and animals under him.  But Eve was destined to be his helpmate in the garden and the mother of all the living.  Or, putting it another way, the mother of the entire human race.

 

Therefore, if you want to make the entire human race guilty of disobedience, so that you can have mercy on everyone, where do you start?  The answer is, right at the beginning of humanity, with the first man and the first woman.

 

This is confirmed by the genealogies in Genesis 5 and also in the gospel of Luke, chapter 3.

 

Genesis 5 : 1 & 2

 

1This is the written account of Adam’s family line.  When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 

2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created.

 

All mankind is descended from Adam and Eve, so god had to start his binding of the entire human race with them.

 

Luke 3 : 23 - 38

 

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, 

24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,the son of Naggai, 

26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 

28 the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,the son of Levi, 

30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 

32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon,

33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 

34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,

35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 

36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,

37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, 

38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam,

the son of God.

 

Again, all of mankind, including Jesus Christ himself, descends from Adam and Eve.

 

Therefore, since it was god's will and plan to make the all of mankind guilty of disobedience it naturally follows that there can be no exceptions.  Everyone means everyone.  Eve just happens to be one of the very first people that god did this to. 

 

Did she have a choice?  Well, did anyone else have a choice?  The answer is, of course, no.  If someone is imprisoned they can't exercise their free will to just walk out and exit the prison.  Their freedom to do that has been taken away from them.  It's nonsensical to say that prisoners locked in jail are free to leave.  No, they're not.  They're locked in there against their will.

 

Lets look at Romans 11 again.

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

See that Ed?  God imprisoned the entire Jewish race, his own chosen people, in a state of disobedience so that they could not accept Jesus as their Messiah, Saviour and Lord.

 

So if he is able and willing to do that it should be no trouble at all for him to do the same to the entire human race.  We're all imprisoned in sin and disobedience.  Every one of us.  Including Eve.

 

And none of us had any say or any choice in the matter. 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

This is not right Walter for these reasons:

 

The binding over was when God kicked them out of the Garden.  

We will notice that the Holy Spirit had to intervene on a personal level with Mary on this, the bound side, of the gate.

We don't hear or see any of that on the Gan side with Eve.

 

Make sense?  He subjected them but did not choose.

 

Thanks.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

This is not right Walter for these reasons:

 

The binding over was when God kicked them out of the Garden.  

 

No, that's wrong.  The binding is still force. 

 

Romans 11 :32 clearly says that it is god's will to bind EVERYONE into a state of disobedience, so that he can have mercy on EVERYONE. 

 

Was everyone alive at the time god kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden?  No.  There were only two people alive then.

Was everyone alive when Paul wrote the book of Romans?  No.  Billions more were yet to be born.

Is everyone alive now that will ever be born?  No.  Babies are being born even as you read these words.

 

There's another, scriptural way I can falsify your claim.  When Paul wrote Romans he described how the Jews were THEN in bondage to disobedience.  That's thousands of years after Adam and Eve and almost two thousand years before today.  And the Jews are still in that bondage today because they still reject Jesus as their Messiah and their god.  So, god's binding on them is still in force and will remain so until judgment day.

 

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

We will notice that the Holy Spirit had to intervene on a personal level with Mary on this, the bound side, of the gate.

We don't hear or see any of that on the Gan side with Eve.

 

Make sense?  He subjected them but did not choose.

 

 Nope.  Sorry, those sentences make no sense to me.  Please try again.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

But if you're saying that god did not choose who will be saved and who will not, you're badly mistaken, Ed.  Let's look at scripture again.  I'll highlight the pertinent passages.

 

Ephesians 1 : 3 - 12

 

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 

6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 

8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 

9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 

10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

 

It's god who does the choosing, not us.  If it were us the text would not say, 'he chose us'.  But it does.

If we were doing the choosing, the text would say so.  But it doesn't.  It says, 'we were chosen'

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

No, that's wrong.  The binding is still force. 

 

Romans 11 :32 clearly says that it is god's will to bind EVERYONE into a state of disobedience, so that he can have mercy on EVERYONE. 

 

Was everyone alive at the time god kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden?  No.  There were only two people alive then.

Was everyone alive when Paul wrote the book of Romans?  No.  Billions more were yet to be born.

Is everyone alive now that will ever be born?  No.  Babies are being born even as you read these words.

 

There's another, scriptural way I can falsify your claim.  When Paul wrote Romans he described how the Jews were THEN in bondage to disobedience.  That's thousands of years after Adam and Eve and almost two thousand years before today.  And the Jews are still in that bondage today because they still reject Jesus as their Messiah and their god.  So, god's binding on them is still in force and will remain so until judgment day.

 

 

 

 Nope.  Sorry, those sentences make no sense to me.  Please try again.

 

 

 

 

Once and for all show me where God made her change her mind.  (Mary had a direct experience with the Spirit).  And unless God and the Devil are one in the same, it was Satan that tempted Eve.  No indirect associations, show us the verse where God altered her belief.

 

Thanks.

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

But if you're saying that god did not choose who will be saved and who will not, you're badly mistaken, Ed.  Let's look at scripture again.  I'll highlight the pertinent passages.

 

Ephesians 1 : 3 - 12

 

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 

6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 

8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 

9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 

10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfilment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

 

It's god who does the choosing, not us.  If it were us the text would not say, 'he chose us'.  But it does.

If we were doing the choosing, the text would say so.  But it doesn't.  It says, 'we were chosen'

Good try but no.  Humanity predestined....His will, His plan...  His will is humanity to be holy and blameless, not MAKE them unholy.  

 

You personally may exercise that line of thinking but again, either God and the serpent are synonymous or they are not.  And they are not.  It's Satan that tempted, not God.  God may have set it up, but ultimately Eve made the choice unless, UNLESS you can show us direct intervention as He did with Mary.

 

Thanks. 

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Once and for all show me where God made her change her mind.  (Mary had a direct experience with the Spirit).  And unless God and the Devil are one in the same, it was Satan that tempted Eve.  No indirect associations, show us the verse where God altered her belief.

 

Thanks.

 

Why don't you show the verse where is says that Adam chose of his own free will to disobey god?

 

Look for it if you want but you won't find it, Ed.  It's not in the bible.  What is there are verses that say that he disobeyed and that he sinned, but nowhere in the whole of scripture will you find any passage that explicitly says that Adam exercised his free will to disobey god.

 

But that absence doesn't stop Christians from inferring that Adam must have had free will and that he used it to sin.

 

So, if billions of Christians can make an inference from scripture, then so can I.

 

Or are you saying that you can infer that Adam had free will but I can't infer that god overrode Eve's free will?

 

Really?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Good try but no.  Humanity predestined....His will, His plan...  His will is humanity to be holy and blameless, not MAKE them unholy.  

 

You personally may exercise that line of thinking but again, either God and the serpent are synonymous or they are not.  And they are not.  It's Satan that tempted, not God.  God may have set it up, but ultimately Eve made the choice unless, UNLESS you can show us direct intervention as He did with Mary.

 

Thanks. 

 

Don't put words in my mouth, Ed.

 

I never said that it was god's will to make humanity unholy.  I've confined myself strictly to what scripture says.

 

I've also clearly explained that it is god's will to make the human race innocent again through the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

But before they can be given mercy by the judge of the entire earth, they must first be made guilty of disobedience.

 

That is his will, as described in Romans 11 : 32.

 

Make everyone guilty by binding everyone into disobedience, then have mercy on everyone through the blood of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Don't put words in my mouth, Ed.

 

I never said that it was god's will to make humanity unholy.  I've confined myself strictly to what scripture says.

 

I've also clearly explained that it is god's will to make the human race innocent again through the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

But before they can be given mercy by the judge of the entire earth, they must first be made guilty of disobedience.

 

That is his will, as described in Romans 11 : 32.

 

Make everyone guilty by binding everyone into disobedience, then have mercy on everyone through the blood of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

We are talking about Eve’s free will.  Show me where Eve was more than just subjected to God’s plan.  Show me evidence where she lost her free will.  That’s what you are saying when you say God violated her free will.  

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

We are talking about Eve’s free will.  Show me where Eve was more than just subjected to God’s plan.  Show me evidence where she lost her free will.  That’s what you are saying when you say God violated her free will.  

 

The evidence can be found in Romans 11 : 32, Ed.

 

You just have to read it and understand it.

 

 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

Please tell me that you understand that Eve is included in the word, everyone.

 

?

 

 

[Edgarcito]

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

The evidence can be found in Romans 11 : 32, Ed.

 

You just have to read it and understand it.

 

 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

Please tell me that you understand that Eve is included in the word, everyone.

 

?

 

 

Noah, Daniel, Job, Jesus ring a bell?

[walterpthefirst]

Here's another passage that describes god doing the choosing, Ed.

 

2 Timothy 1 : 9 & 10.

 

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 

10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 

 

You see?

 

We do nothing.  No choosing.  It is god's purpose and grace that did the choosing before the beginning of time.

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Noah, Daniel, Job, Jesus ring a bell?

 

All guilty of disobedience except Jesus.

 

If you are saying that their deeds of obedience will save them then that is the heresy of salvation by works.

[walterpthefirst]

Romans 9 : 10 - 16

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

No choices Esau could make could sway god's decision to hate him.

 

Esau's damnation did not depend upon his free will.

 

God chose to hate him even before he was born.

 

It is god who chooses (elects) who will be saved and who will not.

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

All guilty of disobedience except Jesus.

 

If you are saying that their deeds of obedience will save them then that is the heresy of salvation by works.

I’m just saying they were righteous.  How does that happen when you are saying God directly alters their mind …all of us.  And it would contradictory to say God makes us evil.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

Romans 9 : 10 - 16

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

No choices Esau could make could sway god's decision to hate him.

 

Esau's damnation did not depend upon his free will.

 

God chose to hate him even before he was born.

 

It is god who chooses (elects) who will be saved and who will not.

 

 

 

 

We aren’t God.  You can’t stop a tornado but you can choose your reaction to the destruction..  Not by your thinking.  God changes our mind towards evil…

[Edgarcito]

Show me where it says God makes us lean towards evil.  That’s what you’re saying.  

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

I’m just saying they were righteous.  How does that happen when you are saying God directly alters their mind …all of us.  And it would contradictory to say God makes us evil.

 

How would it contradict anything, Ed?

 

Romans 11 : 32 says that god desires to make us guilty of disobedience so that he can have mercy upon us.  If that means making us temporarily evil so that he can make us eternally good, then its just a means to an end.  And it would be wrong and unscriptural for me to say that god directly tempts people to do evil.  That would contradict James 1 : 13 - 14

 

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 

14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 

15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

God doesn't directly tempt anyone to do evil.  But he does get someone else to do his dirty work for him.  That's why he allowed Satan, in the form of serpent, to enter Eden and tempt Eve.

 

Sure, god didn't tempt Eve himself.  He's too clever for that.  He just let the most cunning and harmful of the fallen angels do that for him. Where you'd shoot a snake threatening your kids Ed, god allows the deadliest snake of all to harm his.

 

And then he blames everyone but himself for the evil he orchestrated.