Why would a perfect garden need anyone to look after it?

[walterpthefirst]

48 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I believe to understand what you are saying.... I tend to employ some symbolism and mystic type reading on occasion.  Let me please try to clarify.

 

In Gensis, we are thinking of the Garden as perfect, no death, no decay, yet God places the serpent (death), and the knowledge of evil (more imperfection), in the perfect garden.  Seemingly the two should not be able to coexist. 

 

Ok, I see now.  Thanks for clarifying. 

 

Your symbolic/mystical reading of the bible is something I cannot take issue with, of course.  You are entirely free to read scripture any way you want. 

 

To clarify my own approach to reading it - in playing Devil's Advocate I treat it all as true.  I do this for two reasons.  First, so that I can be on the same wavelength as Christians who treat the bible as true and inerrant.  Secondly, because the authors of the various books in the bible seem to treat it all as true, real and historical.  The writers of certain psalms refer back to the events of the Exodus as real and historical.  The writers of various epistles in the NT also do the same, referring back to Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Moses and Elijah and others as real people, living in real places.  To them its all true.  Its their history. 

 

 

48 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Another point please.  God is with humanity in all stages of existence....in the Garden, post Garden, and now in one form or another.  So, I'm saying the Vine, the plant, is essentially a symbolic representation of God, and what Jonah should be tending to as was the job for Adam and Eve....tending to the Garden.  So, we see that God placed the serpent and God placed the worm both, in my opinion, for the benefit of Adam, Eve, and Jonah.  

 

If God can place evil in a setting of perfection certainly imo He can place Life and death, (the Vine and worm) in a setting of decay.

 

Ok, I see where you are going here. 

 

But I cannot follow you.  I hope you've looked at what I wrote earlier about the proper biblical context and whether something is appropriate and applicable to its god-ordained time?  For that reason I cannot agree with your argument about the garden of Eden being used by god as a place to teach humanity.  That they might learn through the process you've referred to.  

 

Yes, god can place evil in Eden.  But he cannot and did not place decay or death there as lessons for Adam and Eve.  Nor did he place any worms there.  That conflicts with what the bible actually says.  That's stretching the use of symbolism and metaphor too far.  That's taking things that are not appropriate to Eden before the Fall and placing them where they never existed.  Using the inappropriate presence of death, decay and the worm in Eden, saying that god used these thing to teach Adam and Eve lessons is just unbiblical. 

 

God placing evil in Eden eventually LEAD TO death and decay entering the world.  But he didn't place them there before the Fall.  Death and decay were the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin and disobedience.  They happened AFTER god cursed them, not before.  That's what the bible says.

 

If a symbolic argument about god contradicts what scripture actually says, then in my book it must be invalid.  

 

Would you agree with that?  Or do you feel that you have a free hand to draw analogies or make symbolic arguments that contradict with scripture?  

 

 

48 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

With regard to objective and subjective use.  And I might not be using them correctly but understand that I think I am:  Objective nature in that we can influence what we may have the capability to influence.... things "below" us.  Similarly subjective, that we are also subject to things that are above our ability to control.... we are subject to these things, God.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  Now I can see how you're using these words.

 

That's not the way I'd use the word objective, but I'm not going to quibble about details.  All that really matters is that I get the way you're using it.

 

As regards subjective, Yes.  That word can be used in the way you describe.  There are other ways, but they don't matter right now.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok, I see now.  Thanks for clarifying. 

 

Your symbolic/mystical reading of the bible is something I cannot take issue with, of course.  You are entirely free to read scripture any way you want. 

 

To clarify my own approach to reading it - in playing Devil's Advocate I treat it all as true.  I do this for two reasons.  First, so that I can be on the same wavelength as Christians who treat the bible as true and inerrant.  Secondly, because the authors of the various books in the bible seem to treat it all as true, real and historical.  The writers of certain psalms refer back to the events of the Exodus as real and historical.  The writers of various epistles in the NT also do the same, referring back to Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Moses and Elijah and others as real people, living in real places.  To them its all true.  Its their history. 

 

 

 

Ok, I see where you are going here. 

 

But I cannot follow you.  I hope you've looked at what I wrote earlier about the proper biblical context and whether something is appropriate and applicable to its god-ordained time?  For that reason I cannot agree with your argument about the garden of Eden being used by god as a place to teach humanity.  That they might learn through the process you've referred to.  

 

Yes, god can place evil in Eden.  But he cannot and did not place decay or death there as lessons for Adam and Eve.  Nor did he place any worms there.  That conflicts with what the bible actually says.  That's stretching the use of symbolism and metaphor too far.  That's taking things that are not appropriate to Eden before the Fall and placing them where they never existed.  Using the inappropriate presence of death, decay and the worm in Eden, saying that god used these thing to teach Adam and Eve lessons is just unbiblical. 

 

God placing evil in Eden eventually LEAD TO death and decay entering the world.  But he didn't place them there before the Fall.  Death and decay were the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin and disobedience.  They happened AFTER god cursed them, not before.  That's what the bible says.

 

If a symbolic argument about god contradicts what scripture actually says, then in my book it must be invalid.  

 

Would you agree with that?  Or do you feel that you have a free hand to draw analogies or make symbolic arguments that contradict with scripture?  

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  Now I can see how you're using these words.

 

That's not the way I'd use the word objective, but I'm not going to quibble about details.  All that really matters is that I get the way you're using it.

 

As regards subjective, Yes.  That word can be used in the way you describe.  There are other ways, but they don't matter right now.

I understand Walter, but that's really not what y'all say.  One, that God violated Adam and Eve's free will and two, that God does this on purpose.  I guess I need clarification.  How did Satan enter the garden?  Why is the knowledge of evil there?  And God DID place the worm in Jonah 4....the Bible says this very directly. (I didn't say the worm was in Eden...I used the analogous version, the snake/serpent).  Please explain in your form of reading the Bible that will clarify the aforementioned.  And if God is alive even through periods of death and decay, how are His actions not equally valid despite the various time frames.

 

How can you not agree with me when I'm agreeing with you?  Who was it Jesus, that said do not quit meeting together.  Why is it called a race?  Why perseverance if there wasn't any reason to persevere?   God continues to provide cover, shade, and life.

 

Thx, if I think of something else, I'll post.  Thx again.

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I understand Walter, but that's really not what y'all say.  One, that God violated Adam and Eve's free will and two, that God does this on purpose.  I guess I need clarification.  How did Satan enter the garden?  Why is the knowledge of evil there?  And God DID place the worm in Jonah 4....the Bible says this very directly. (I didn't say the worm was in Eden...I used the analogous version, the snake/serpent).  Please explain in your form of reading the Bible that will clarify the aforementioned.  And if God is alive even through periods of death and decay, how are His actions not equally valid despite the various time frames.

 

How can you not agree with me when I'm agreeing with you?  Who was it Jesus, that said do not quit meeting together.  Why is it called a race?  Why perseverance if there wasn't any reason to persevere?   God continues to provide cover, shade, and life.

 

Thx, if I think of something else, I'll post.  Thx again.

 

You've asked for an awful lot there, Ed.

 

And I will, in due  course, provide you with answers, explanations and clarifications.  But first I must ask you to keep up your end of things.  By answering that question I put to you earlier.  If you answer it I will have a better idea of where you stand and how much latitude you allow yourself in making your arguments.

 

So, please answer this question before we carry on with anything else.

 

Do you feel that you have a free hand to draw analogies or make symbolic arguments that contradict scripture? 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[Edgarcito]

26 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

You've asked for a awful lot there, Ed.

 

And I will, in due  course, provide you with answers, explanations and clarifications.  But first I must ask you to keep up your end of things.  By answering that question I put to you earlier.  If you answer it I will have a better idea of where you stand and how much latitude you allow yourself in making your arguments.

 

So, please answer this question before we carry on with anything else.

 

Do you feel that you have a free hand to draw analogies or make symbolic arguments that contradict scripture? 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

Kind of an invalid question as there is no correct way that I know to read the Bible given a potential contribution via the Holy Spirit and it's commonly referred to as the Living Word.  

 

I.e., how is there a contradiction without valid methodology.

 

Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Kind of an invalid question as there is no correct way that I know to read the Bible given a potential contribution via the Holy Spirit and it's commonly referred to as the Living Word.  

 

I.e., how is there a contradiction without valid methodology.

 

Thx.

 

Edgarcito,

 

As an atheist and a sceptic I do not have the holy spirit dwelling within me, helping me to properly understand god's Word.  Therefore, according to what you've just written, nothing that I write about god or the bible can ever be valid.

 

At a stroke you've cut the ground from beneath me by invoking the presence of an invisible, intangible and undetectable person who lives within you but not within me.  A person who's input is needed to correctly understand the bible.

 

By using this tactic you can gainsay anything I write or invalidate any argument I make, no matter how scriptural and no matter how much it seems to illustrate god's purposes and thinking. 

 

Or you can use this ploy to just invalidate any question that I ask you.  Which means that you can avoid answering any and all questions about god and the bible simply by asserting that these questions need the guidance of this invisible person to be valid.

 

At the moment I really can't see any point in answering your questions or providing you with the explanations and clarifications that you want.  Doing so would mean that you are effectively in control of this thread, whereas neither of us should be in control of it.  We are equals in every respect here and so there should be the same degree of give and take between us.

 

You should be able to ask me questions in the expectation that I will answer and I should be able to do the same.  But now I cannot do that.  Not if you will invalidate my questions in this way and not answer them.

 

If you can give me a good reason why our dialogue should continue I will certainly listen.  But if not then we are done.  I won't discuss anything more with you if there's no possibility of having my questions answered by you.

 

The ball is now firmly in your court, Ed.  Please provide me with a reason why we should continue here.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

12 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Edgarcito,

 

As an atheist and a sceptic I do not have the holy spirit dwelling within me, helping me to properly understand god's Word.  Therefore, according to what you've just written, nothing that I write about god or the bible can ever be valid.

 

At a stroke you've cut the ground from beneath me by invoking the presence of an invisible, intangible and undetectable person who lives within you but not within me.  A person who's input is needed to correctly understand the bible.

 

By using this tactic you can gainsay anything I write or invalidate any argument I make, no matter how scriptural and no matter how much it seems to illustrate god's purposes and thinking. 

 

Or you can use this ploy to just invalidate any question that I ask you.  Which means that you can avoid answering any and all questions about god and the bible simply by asserting that these questions need the guidance of this invisible person to be valid.

 

At the moment I really can't see any point in answering your questions or providing you with the explanations and clarifications that you want.  Doing so would mean that you are effectively in control of this thread, whereas neither of us should be in control of it.  We are equals in every respect here and so there should be the same degree of give and take between us.

 

You should be able to ask me questions in the expectation that I will answer and I should be able to do the same.  But now I cannot do that.  Not if you will invalidate my questions in this way and not answer them.

 

If you can give me a good reason why our dialogue should continue I will certainly listen.  But if not then we are done.  I won't discuss anything more with you if there's no possibility of having my questions answered by you.

 

The ball is now firmly in your court, Ed.  Please provide me with a reason why we should continue here.

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Walter, that's just how I see the Scripture on occasion.  I enjoyed the dialogue.  Please feel free to contribute.  I'll try to be open minded.

 

Thanks again.

[walterpthefirst]

Very well, Ed. 

 

That's gracious of you and I accept your offer.

 

As far as I'm aware, these were your questions.

 

One, that God violated Adam and Eve's free will and two, that God does this on purpose. 

How did Satan enter the garden? 

Why is the knowledge of [good and] evil there?
And if God is alive even through periods of death and decay, how are His actions not equally valid despite the various time frames?

 

So, working on the assumption that you are happy for me to tackle these questions, I'll do so right away.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

When it comes to god violating Adam and Eve's free will and having a motive for doing it, my source is the apostle Paul.

 

In Romans 11 he describes how the Jews have become disobedient enemies of Christ by persecuting Christians and by closing their hearts and minds to the message of the gospel.  Then he goes on to speak about how those who are disobedient will receive mercy from god, saying that even though the Jews are currently enemies of god, in the end, when god judges everyone, they will be shown mercy and will be forgiven for their disobedience.

 

Romans 11 : 28 - 32.

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

Here's how it works, Ed.

 

Only the guilty can receive mercy from a judge and since god wanted to have mercy on everyone, he bound everyone over to be disobedient.  That was his motive.  He wanted to demonstrate his mercy for all to see.  To bring that about he had ensure that everyone was guilty.  

 

In the case of the Jews he bound them all over to be disobedient, causing them to reject Jesus and to persecute the Christians.  Having made them become disobedient god is now in a position to exercise his mercy and to forgive them.  Which is what he will do on judgment day.

 

In the case of the Gentiles god bound them all over to be disobedient too, causing them to worship false gods.  But those Gentiles who hear the message of the gospel and whom accept Jesus will be forgiven.  They receive god's mercy through the blood of Christ.  God will also do this on judgment day.

 

Finally, what about Adam and Eve?  In their case god bound them over to be disobedient too.  The logic of verse 32 ensures that.  Everyone means everyone.  If there had been any exceptions then Paul wouldn't have used the word, everyone.

 

Its important to remember that Paul was once Saul, a Pharisee of Pharisees, an expert in the Law and someone who knew the scriptures inside and out.  If there were any exceptions written down in the books of the Hebrew scriptures, then he would know about it.

 

And when you look at Genesis 3 : 20 it makes sense for god to have bound Adam and Eve over to disobedience.

 

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

Since we know from Romans 11 : 32 that god wanted to have mercy on all the living, where else should he start with that plan but with the mother of all the living?  

 

Now, I know that you have an interest in genetics Ed, so please consider this idea.  What if each generation originating from Adam and Eve inherited their disobedience gene?  That would mean that everyone in the entire world (biblically speaking) would inevitably become disobedient to god.  Which is exactly the outcome god wanted.  He wanted everyone to become guilty of disobedience so that he could have mercy on everyone, just as Romans 11 : 32 says.

 

Now we can see a grand overview of how god's great cosmic plan works.  First, make everyone guilty of disobedience, starting with Adam and Eve.  Later, incarnate himself as Jesus Christ and sacrifice himself so that his blood becomes the only way the guilty can become innocent.  Finally, as the judge of the world, pronounce everyone guilty of disobedience, but dispense mercy to those who are loved by him and withhold mercy to those who are not.

 

Can you see how it works, Ed?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

10 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

When it comes to god violating Adam and Eve's free will and having a motive for doing it, my source is the apostle Paul.

 

In Romans 11 he describes how the Jews have become disobedient enemies of Christ by persecuting Christians and by closing their hearts and minds to the message of the gospel.  Then he goes on to speak about how those who are disobedient will receive mercy from god, saying that even though the Jews are currently enemies of god, in the end, when god judges everyone, they will be shown mercy and will be forgiven for their disobedience.

 

Romans 11 : 28 - 32.

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

Here's how it works, Ed.

 

Only the guilty can receive mercy from a judge and since god wanted to have mercy on everyone, he bound everyone over to be disobedient.  That was his motive.  He wanted to demonstrate his mercy for all to see.  To bring that about he had ensure that everyone was guilty.  

 

In the case of the Jews he bound them all over to be disobedient, causing them to reject Jesus and to persecute the Christians.  Having made them become disobedient god is now in a position to exercise his mercy and to forgive them.  Which is what he will do on judgment day.

 

In the case of the Gentiles god bound them all over to be disobedient too, causing them to worship false gods.  But those Gentiles who hear the message of the gospel and whom accept Jesus will be forgiven.  They receive god's mercy through the blood of Christ.  God will also do this on judgment day.

 

Finally, what about Adam and Eve?  In their case god bound them over to be disobedient too.  The logic of verse 32 ensures that.  Everyone means everyone.  If there had been any exceptions then Paul wouldn't have used the word, everyone.

 

Its important to remember that Paul was once Saul, a Pharisee of Pharisees, an expert in the Law and someone who knew the scriptures inside and out.  If there were any exceptions written down in the books of the Hebrew scriptures, then he would know about it.

 

And when you look at Genesis 3 : 20 it makes sense for god to have bound Adam and Eve over to disobedience.

 

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

Since we know from Romans 11 : 32 that god wanted to have mercy on all the living, where else should he start with that plan but with the mother of all the living?  

 

Now, I know that you have an interest in genetics Ed, so please consider this idea.  What if each generation originating from Adam and Eve inherited their disobedience gene?  That would mean that everyone in the entire world (biblically speaking) would inevitably become disobedient to god.  Which is exactly the outcome god wanted.  He wanted everyone to become guilty of disobedience so that he could have mercy on everyone, just as Romans 11 : 32 says.

 

Now we can see a grand overview of how god's great cosmic plan works.  First, make everyone guilty of disobedience, starting with Adam and Eve.  Later, incarnate himself as Jesus Christ and sacrifice himself so that his blood becomes the only way the guilty can become innocent.  Finally, as the judge of the world, pronounce everyone guilty of disobedience, but dispense mercy to those who are loved by him and withhold mercy to those who are not.

 

Can you see how it works, Ed?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I had alluded to or mentioned, I believe humanity is both predestined and free willed.  Predestined in the sense that we are subject in many ways.  Free willed in that we may influence as well.  I don't think it's the predestined part that gives us the trouble, but more our free will portion.  

 

Were Adam and Eve predestined in the Garden.  Certainly.  Did they have free will in the Garden?  Certainly.  Like I say, I don't think it's the predestined part that condemns us, but the free will part.  

 

I guess the question is, is it within our free will to remain faithful and free willed even if we are influenced/predestined by God?  Likely at least a few examples in the Bible of this case.....one Big one that I know.

 

And also, we would have to assume that God's promises are absolute....

 

Thanks

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

As I had alluded to or mentioned, I believe humanity is both predestined and free willed.  Predestined in the sense that we are subject in many ways.  Free willed in that we may influence as well.  I don't think it's the predestined part that gives us the trouble, but more our free will portion.  

 

Were Adam and Eve predestined in the Garden.  Certainly.  Did they have free will in the Garden?  Certainly.  Like I say, I don't think it's the predestined part that condemns us, but the free will part.  

 

I guess the question is, is it within our free will to remain faithful and free willed even if we are influenced/predestined by God?  Likely at least a few examples in the Bible of this case.....one Big one that I know.

 

And also, we would have to assume that God's promises are absolute....

 

Thanks

 

Ok, let's run with your model of mixed predestination and free will Ed and see if it works for Adam and Eve in Eden.

 

 

Ultimately the only choice that mattered for them then was to obey god's warning about the forbidden tree... or not.  Any other decisions were penalty free.  So if god had told Adam, "Prune this tree today" and he didn't do it, then Yes, Adam has been disobedient to god, but that act of disobedience would have carried no penalty.

 

So they can have all the free will they like and make free willed decisions and choices about anything in Eden and it wouldn't matter at all...  PROVIDED  ...that their choices and decisions didn't incur a penalty from god.

 

This passage is what everything (their fate, the fate of humanity and the fate of all creation) hangs on, Ed.

 

Genesis 2 : 15 - 17.

 

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 

17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 

There's the penalty.

 

So, that's the only decision that they have to make that really matters.  They can use their free will at all other times and their freely made decisions, to obey or to disobey, will carry no penalty from god.  He won't punish them for any other acts of disobedience except the one where he explicitly described the penalty. 

 

So why did god give Adam only one command, which carried with it a due penalty?

 

Because that's all he needed to do to carry out his plan of making them guilty, so that he could have mercy upon them, as per Romans 11 : 32.  By causing Adam and Eve to disobey his one command everything in god's plan falls neatly into place. 

 

They become guilty of disobedience and inherit the due penalty.  As I mentioned before, a judge has no power to have mercy on an innocent person, but now, because they disobeyed a direct command that carried a penalty, they were no longer innocent in god's sight.  They were guilty of disobedience and so must receive their due penalty and be punished.

 

God handed down his punishments and curses, expelling them from Eden and from his presence.  From that time onwards all of mankind lived apart from god, in a state of disgrace and shame, suffering the curses that god laid upon the Adam and Eve.  In the same way, because god had made Adam the head of creation, putting all living things under him, when he sinned the whole of creation was cursed too.

 

This is when decay and death came into the world.  Not before.  And that is why and how we know that there was no death or decay in Eden or in the rest of the world before Adam sinned and disobeyed god's command.

 

It is god's desire to hand down mercy everyone that is the key to his plan. 

 

For that plan to work the two people he were created innocent had to be made guilty.  Once they were guilty the rest of the human race automatically becomes guilty because Eve was the mother of all the living.   With everyone guilty god, as their judge, can have mercy on everyone.  He has made the whole of humanity utterly reliant on his mercy towards them.  If he withholds that mercy then they are lost forever.

 

So how did god do this in Eden?  We now know his motive, but what was his method?  By giving Adam a direct command tied to a penalty, by putting a source of temptation (the forbidden tree) within easy reach and by allowing the serpent to tempt Eve, the weaker and more easily swayed of the two people in Eden.

 

And there you have it, Ed.

 

God's motive and method.  An explanation of how he violated their free will to change them from innocent to guilty.  And an explanation of how and when god permitted them to exercise their free will in Eden.  Allowing them to make free choices when it didn't matter, but overriding their free will on the one time it really mattered.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Ok, let's run with your model of mixed predestination and free will Ed and see if it works for Adam and Eve in Eden.

 

 

Ultimately the only choice that mattered for them then was to obey god's warning about the forbidden tree... or not.  Any other decisions were penalty free.  So if god had told Adam, "Prune this tree today" and he didn't do it, then Yes, Adam has been disobedient to god, but that act of disobedience would have carried no penalty.

 

So they can have all the free will they like and make free willed decisions and choices about anything in Eden and it wouldn't matter at all...  PROVIDED  ...that their choices and decisions didn't incur a penalty from god.

 

This passage is what everything (their fate, the fate of humanity and the fate of all creation) hangs on, Ed.

 

Genesis 2 : 15 - 17.

 

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 

17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 

There's the penalty.

 

So, that's the only decision that they have to make that really matters.  They can use their free will at all other times and their freely made decisions, to obey or to disobey, will carry no penalty from god.  He won't punish them for any other acts of disobedience except the one where he explicitly described the penalty. 

 

So why did god give Adam only one command, which carried with it a due penalty?

 

Because that's all he needed to do to carry out his plan of making them guilty, so that he could have mercy upon them, as per Romans 11 : 32.  By causing Adam and Eve to disobey his one command everything in god's plan falls neatly into place. 

 

They become guilty of disobedience and inherit the due penalty.  As I mentioned before, a judge has no power to have mercy on an innocent person, but now, because they disobeyed a direct command that carried a penalty, they were no longer innocent in god's sight.  They were guilty of disobedience and so must receive their due penalty and be punished.

 

God handed down his punishments and curses, expelling them from Eden and from his presence.  From that time onwards all of mankind lived apart from god, in a state of disgrace and shame, suffering the curses that god laid upon the Adam and Eve.  In the same way, because god had made Adam the head of creation, putting all living things under him, when he sinned the whole of creation was cursed too.

 

This is when decay and death came into the world.  Not before.  And that is why and how we know that there was no death or decay in Eden or in the rest of the world before Adam sinned and disobeyed god's command.

 

It is god's desire to hand down mercy everyone that is the key to his plan. 

 

For that plan to work the two people he were created innocent had to be made guilty.  Once they were guilty the rest of the human race automatically becomes guilty because Eve was the mother of all the living.   With everyone guilty god, as their judge, can have mercy on everyone.  He has made the whole of humanity utterly reliant on his mercy towards them.  If he withholds that mercy then they are lost forever.

 

So how did god do this in Eden?  We now know his motive, but what was his method?  By giving Adam a direct command tied to a penalty, by putting a source of temptation (the forbidden tree) within easy reach and by allowing the serpent to tempt Eve, the weaker and more easily swayed of the two people in Eden.

 

And there you have it, Ed.

 

God's motive and method.  An explanation of how he violated their free will to change them from innocent to guilty.  And an explanation of how and when god permitted them to exercise their free will in Eden.  Allowing them to make free choices when it didn't matter, but overriding their free will on the one time it really mattered.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

I understand the plan.  Interesting that it mirrors our own lives.  As innocent children, we didn't know good or bad.  And young people, "here are the rules".... which many didn't want, and as adults, forgiveness and Grace and faith that we will do better.  

 

You seem to value the first set of interactions more than the last.  And the consequences?

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I understand the plan.  Interesting that it mirrors our own lives.  As innocent children, we didn't know good or bad.  And young people, "here are the rules".... which many didn't want, and as adults, forgiveness and Grace and faith that we will do better.  

 

You seem to value the first set of interactions more than the last.  And the consequences?

 

Sorry Ed, but you'll have to be a bit more specific about which interactions you mean.

 

I made quite a long post there, so if you could cut and paste or quote what you're referring to, that would help.

 

Then I'd see just which set of interactions you mean.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

I understand the plan.  Interesting that it mirrors our own lives.  As innocent children, we didn't know good or bad.  And young people, "here are the rules".... which many didn't want, and as adults, forgiveness and Grace and faith that we will do better.  

 

You seem to value the first set of interactions more than the last.  And the consequences?

 

 

Ok, so you understand the plan and how it works.

 

 

But in the case of Adam and Eve (and others, but I will come to them later) it doesn't mirror our lives.

 

In our lives we have the chance to obtain forgiveness from our parents while we still live.  We continue to interact with them as we grow up.  They are there to give that forgiveness.  We are not separated from our parents.  They are (or should be) there to guide and counsel us.  To teach and educate.  To correct, punish and forgive, as they see fit.

 

But Adam and Eve never had that chance with their father, god.

 

He punished them and to get his forgiveness they will have to wait until judgment day.  Not only that, he cast them out of his presence by expelling them from Eden.  There was no way they could obtain his mercy or forgiveness for their sin in their own lifetimes. 

 

That's what god does to those who disobey or rebel against him.  He casts them out of his presence.  He did that with Satan and the rebel angels, casting them out of heaven and that's what he did with Adam and Eve.  He separates himself from sin in this way.  So Adam and Eve lived in total isolation from their father. 

 

According to scripture, almost every human being from Adam onwards until the time of Jesus has lived in total separation from god.  That's why the Israelites could not look upon the face of god when he came down on Mount Sinai.  That's why the first temple and every other temple of the Jews had a curtain separating the people from the presence of god.

 

It wasn't until thousands of years later, when Adam and Eve were dead and dust, that god finally removed the separation between himself and the human race.  We know this is so because the gospels tell us.

 

Matthew 27 : 50 - 53

 

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 

52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 

53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

Mark 15 : 

 

37 With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

38 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

 

Luke  23 : 44 - 46

 

44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 

45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 

46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

 

When Jesus died on the cross he became the blood sacrifice that was needed to heal the separation between god and men that had existed since Adam and Eve were driven out of Eden.  The sign of god's acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice was the fact that the separating temple curtain was torn FROM TOP TO BOTTOM.  That is, from heaven down to earth.

 

Before that time there was no way for anyone except god's privileged few, the prophets and certain kings, to have god's holy spirit dwelling within them.  God was separate, distant, invisible and not part of anyone's lives.  He wasn't there to guide and counsel in person.  He wasn't there to teach.  He wasn't there correct or punish or forgive in person.

 

He was an absent parent.

 

So, I'm sorry Ed but you're wrong here.  What happened in Eden and what happened to Adam and Eve is nothing like our lives, where we have our mothers and fathers to raise us properly.  After making clothes out of animal skins for them, God exiled and abandoned them to their fate, with his curses on their heads.

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

 

Walter.

 

[Edgarcito]

No, as I suggested, an evolution of man.  

 

God was with man in the beginning in whatever form he was in.

God was with man in the OT....on the mountain, in the Tabernacle, etc.

God was with man as a man.

God is with us in Spirit.

 

Parents are with us in the beginning when we are innocent 

Parents are with us giving us rules as did God in the OT

Parents are with us IN humanity.

 

And then praise God, parents and others are there for forgiveness, Grace, and mercy.

 

All I can say is Amen.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Edgarcito,

 

Would you now please describe where god was in Adam and Eve's lives after he expelled them from Eden?

 

You wanted to know how god violated their free will and why he did that.

 

I've explained those two things to you and you indicated that you understood them.

 

But the results of god's plan were punishment, curses, exile and abandonment for his children.

 

Where was god in their lives after he cast them out of the only home they'd ever known?

 

Please respect my wish here for you to focus only on Adam and Eve's life after Eden.

 

Where was their father, Ed?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

No, as I suggested, an evolution of man.  

 

God was with man in the beginning in whatever form he was in.

 

Until he banished man from his presence for thousands of years.

 

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

God was with man in the OT....on the mountain, in the Tabernacle, etc.

 

Only Moses was with god on the mountain, nobody else.

 

No, god was separated from man in the Tabernacle by the temple curtain.

 

So, what about the millions of non-Jews who lived and died without a hope of seeing god?

 

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

God was with man as a man.

 

But only for about thirty years, as Jesus.  For the rest of history he has been absent.

 

What about the millions who lived and died before then?

 

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

God is with us in Spirit.

 

But only after Pentecost.  Before then he was absent.

 

What about the millions who lived and died before then?

 

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Parents are with us in the beginning when we are innocent 

 

God was absent from Adam and Eve's lives after they lost their innocence.

 

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Parents are with us giving us rules as did God in the OT

 

God was not with man during the OT.  He was absent.

 

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Parents are with us IN humanity.

 

And then praise God, parents and others are there for forgiveness, Grace, and mercy.

 

All I can say is Amen.

 

 

 

Amen to god's absence?

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Until he banished man from his presence for thousands of years.

 

 

Only Moses was with god on the mountain, nobody else.

 

No, god was separated from man in the Tabernacle by the temple curtain.

 

So, what about the millions of non-Jews who lived and died without a hope of seeing god?

 

 

But only for about thirty years, as Jesus.  For the rest of history he has been absent.

 

What about the millions who lived and died before then?

 

 

But only after Pentecost.  Before then he was absent.

 

What about the millions who lived and died before then?

 

 

God was absent from Adam and Eve's lives after they lost their innocence.

 

 

God was not with man during the OT.  He was absent.

 

 

Amen to god's absence?

Semantics Walter.   

 

Thank you for the conversation.  (If you would like keep visiting, I'm in).

[walterpthefirst]

Semantics Walter.   

 

Thank you for the conversation.  (If you would like keep visiting, I'm in).

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

No sir, not semantics.  Scripture.

 

 

I'm playing Devil's Advocate in this thread, remember?    So I'm taking the position that all Christians should and basing what I say on the Bible. 

 

It specifically says that god separated himself from man when Adam and Eve disobeyed him.  It also says that this separation stayed in place for thousands of years until Jesus died on the cross.  Everything I've written in this thread is from scripture.  I can provide you with the necessary quotes and passages where it says these things, if you'd like.

 

So I'm not engaging in any kind of semantic wordplay here, as you claim.

[walterpthefirst]

So, if you understand my explanation of how god violated Adam and Eve's free will and why he did it, would you like me to move on to your next question, Ed?

 

 

How did Satan enter the garden?

 

 

I await your reply.

[Edgarcito]

32 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Semantics Walter.   

 

Thank you for the conversation.  (If you would like keep visiting, I'm in).

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

No sir, not semantics.  Scripture.

 

 

I'm playing Devil's Advocate in this thread, remember?    So I'm taking the position that all Christians should and basing what I say on the Bible. 

 

It specifically says that god separated himself from man when Adam and Eve disobeyed him.  It also says that this separation stayed in place for thousands of years until Jesus died on the cross.  Everything I've written in this thread is from scripture.  I can provide you with the necessary quotes and passages where it says these things, if you'd like.

 

So I'm not engaging in any kind of semantic wordplay here, as you claim.

It's very analogous to a 20ish child that needs to go out and figure out how smart they aren't.  What about Eve being the mother as you say.  How about the parable of the lost sheep.

[walterpthefirst]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It's very analogous to a 20ish child that needs to go out and figure out how smart they aren't. 

 

 

After their father allowed them to be harmed in their own home by not stopping an intruder intent on evil?

After their father caused them to disobey him?

After their father cursed them?

After their father abandoned them to a life of hardship, danger and death?

After their father made sure that they could never be reconciled with him in this life?

 

Sorry, but I don't see any feasible analogy here at all.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

 

 

What about Eve being the mother as you say.  How about the parable of the lost sheep.

 

You're going to have to be more specific with your questions if you want me to give you specific answers, Ed.

[Edgarcito]

33 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

So, if you understand my explanation of how god violated Adam and Eve's free will and why he did it, would you like me to move on to your next question, Ed?

 

 

How did Satan enter the garden?

 

 

I await your reply.

No, they had free will, and I don't see where Eve was coerced.   Certainly, move forward.  

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

After their father allowed them to be harmed in their own home by not stopping an intruder intent on evil?

After their father caused them to disobey him?

After their father cursed them?

After their father abandoned them to a life of hardship, danger and death?

After their father made sure that they could never be reconciled with him in this life?

 

Sorry, but I don't see any feasible analogy here at all.

 

 

 

You're going to have to be more specific with your questions if you want me to give you specific answers, Ed.

You said Eve was the mother of sin, mother of the bound essentially, a few posts back.  I'm not a s meticulous as you.  

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

No, they had free will, and I don't see where Eve was coerced.   Certainly, move forward.  

 

So you understand god's plan to violate their free will, as I've described to it you.

 

But you still assert that Adam and Eve had free will.

 

Please show the evidence from the bible where it says this.

[Edgarcito]

If you think about it, we can even accept or reject those things, our subjection, that we have no control over.  So it's really a moot point that God has any blame in the matter...outside of we might have created a different experiment.