Edgarcito Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: "Purportedly" is the operative phrase here. But just because god is purportedly on the right side of things, doesn't mean he actually is. Scripture makes it pretty plain that he's not. We will all see in the end....or have to go with @pantheory's take on it all lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 57 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: (Tongue in cheek.) Uh no, mwc. Eve had never seen any garments before god made them some. Genesis 3 : 21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. He did this after the serpent had done its work. So... no. The vest and hat couldn't have tipped Eve off. She wouldn't have understood what they were or their significance. A common misperception. You see, humans were forced to wear clothes *because* the serpent had his snappy outfit first. This is the true meaning of what it meant when they ate the fruit and realized they were naked. They rightly noticed his little clothes and tried to emulate him with leaves. God then went and made them cheap knock-offs, which is a huge problem in the clothing industry, and why we're at odds with serpents today. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 13 Super Moderator Share Posted July 13 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: We will all see in the end. No need to wait; we can see it now. Scripture tells us god looked down at the earth he created and declared it all "very good." You've pointed this out several times, yourself; the latest was yesterday. Yet, we also know that Satan was already on the earth at the time--evil, sin, and deception embodied in the serpent. Yet god still called it "very good." If god calls evil "good," what must we call god? Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness to light and light to darkness, who replace bitter with sweet and sweet with bitter. ~Isaiah 5:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: You'd make an excellent Democrat over here in the States Walter. They are all about blame and lack of self-responsibility. Free stuff, take care of me, no fight. God punished all three of them....remember. And did he give two of them the chance of making a free and uninfluenced choice? No. After 22 pages of being shown they couldn't have made a free willed choice you're STILL saying that they did? There's no blame or responsibility where there's no free will. But my mind is still open and if you can show me from scripture that god gave them a free choice I'll accept that they should have been punished. Go for it, Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Let me ask you this Walter. You said ultimately every action was part of a moral/immoral dichotomy. No. That's another of your strawman arguments. I never said that. 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Then you said that it's ultimately God, bottom line. I said that all responsibility, fault and blame lies with god and used the bible to show this. 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Then somehow you side with Satan that it's God's fault. I had no need to side with Satan. The bible clearly says that god caused us to disobey him. Romans 11 : 32, remember? For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Our wills have been bound by god, forcing us to disobey him. This is not our doing, we didn't choose this and we have no free choice in the matter. Would you like to spend another 20 pages being shown how this works? 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Doesn't that strike you as odd? If God is in control of it all and God is purportedly on the right side of things. And I KNOW you are likely too, then why do you not side with God? How can I possibly side with the one who overrode my will and forced me to disobey him? How can I possibly side with the one who denied Adam and Eve a chance to freely obey him? How can I possibly side with someone who failed to protect his vulnerable children? How can I possibly side with the one who was responsible for bringing disease and death into the world? How can I possibly side with the one who decided beforehand who would burn in hell and who wouldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Let me ask you this Walter. You said ultimately every action was part of a moral/immoral dichotomy. Then you said that it's ultimately God, bottom line. Then somehow you side with Satan that it's God's fault. Doesn't that strike you as odd? If God is in control of it all and God is purportedly on the right side of things. And I KNOW you are likely too, then why do you not side with God? Now let me ask you the very same questions, Ed. How can YOU possibly side with the one who overrode your will and forced you to disobey him? How can YOU possibly side with the one who denied Adam and Eve a chance to freely obey him? How can YOU possibly side with someone who failed to protect his vulnerable children? (When you would?) How can YOU possibly side with the one who was responsible for bringing disease and death into the world? How can YOU possibly side with the one who decided beforehand who would burn in hell and who wouldn't? If you really are on the side of goodness, mercy, fairness, forgiveness, love and justice why do you side with the person who did all these things? Hmmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 5 hours ago, Edgarcito said: I gathered you were saying it wasn't a fair fight...man against Satan. Yet ultimately a man, Jesus, wins and takes everyone of the group that thinks evil sucks, with Him....to Newness. There's only a win where there's a war, Ed. But when the result is decided beforehand there's no war. Therefore Jesus wasn't victorious over Satan or evil or death or man or anything. You've been fooled. And I strongly suspect that you want to be fooled and stay fooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 There is one way I think where free will would just be an illusion. If there were an absolute understanding, then free will would just be a calculation essentially. But looking back.... how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop, the world may never know. And Walter doesn't agree with my thoughts on absolute anyhow....lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: There is one way I think where free will would just be an illusion. If there were an absolute understanding, then free will would just be a calculation essentially. But looking back.... how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop, the world may never know. And Walter doesn't agree with my thoughts on absolute anyhow....lol. If you want to understand how free will works in the bible, why don't you just read it, Ed? You could start here. 2 Corinthians 3 : 7 - 18 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! 12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. Here Paul compares the ministry of the cross with the ministry of the law. He uses the veil Moses put over his face as an illustration of what happens when the Jews hear the law of Moses read out in the synagogue. So who is it who dulls the minds of the Jews so that they cannot be saved by the blood of Jesus? Or putting it more bluntly, who has fucked with their free will? Care to answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 Here's another one about god fucking the Jews over. Romans 11 : 1 - 10 1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” 9 And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.” God has reserved a remnant of the Jews to be saved. But all the others he has hardened against Jesus. That's millions and millions of Jews, from the time of Jesus right up to today, Ed. God has sent them to hell. They didn't choose. He chose hell for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 And I suppose you'll say that god honoured the free will of those Jews who turned to Christ? Nope. Think again. Romans 8 : 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. Just like the Gentiles those Jews who turn to Jesus don't do so of their free will. Instead they are predestined by god to be called according to his purpose. HIS purpose. HIS will. Not theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 And what about the apostle John? What has he got to say about god fucking with the Jews' free will? Well, John agrees with the prophet Isaiah, so that's the OT and NT agreeing that its god who fucks up the free will of the Jews, consigning them to eternal hellfire. John 12 : 37 Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfil the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.” 41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him. See that, Ed? They can't choose to turn to Jesus and be healed. God has prevented them doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Ok that's fine, let's talk about "hardened", "blinded". Will be a good topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Ok that's fine, let's talk about "hardened", "blinded". Will be a good topic. Well, if you want to talk about hardening and blinding Ed, please start by answering my earlier questions. So who is it who dulls the minds of the Jews so that they cannot be saved by the blood of Jesus? Or putting it more bluntly, who has fucked with their free will? Care to answer? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 What if something happens to us in our subjection to greater/larger events...totally out of our control, our objective control, that are not what we had envisioned, again, out of our control, that effectively "harden" our perspective. I.e. that divorce, that car wreck, that death, those taxes, that fire/flood. Do we think that could be what was meant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 Just now, Edgarcito said: What if something happens to us in our subjection to greater/larger events...totally out of our control, our objective control, that are not what we had envisioned, again, out of our control, that effectively "harden" our perspective. I.e. that divorce, that car wreck, that death, those taxes, that fire/flood. Do we think that could be what was meant? Please answer my questions before asking me any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Please answer my questions before asking me any. That is my answer. I'm the one that proposed the conversation anyhow. That was my answer and the reason I commented to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 Who? God? Do you ever thing God was "out there" to those people? And "out there" was a perspective of their subjection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 I'm going to give you just one more chance to answer the questions I put to you, Ed. What I want to know from you is who does the bible say dulls the minds of the Jews. That is, the name of the person who does the dulling. Here are my questions again. So who is it who dulls the minds of the Jews so that they cannot be saved by the blood of Jesus? Or putting it more bluntly, who has fucked with their free will? Care to answer? Please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Who? God? Do you ever thing God was "out there" to those people? And "out there" was a perspective of their subjection? Please refer to the bible passage I quoted and tell me the identity of who dulls the minds of the Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 17 Super Moderator Share Posted July 17 On 7/17/2024 at 11:38 AM, Edgarcito said: What if something happens to us in our subjection to greater/larger events...totally out of our control, our objective control, that are not what we had envisioned, again, out of our control, that effectively "harden" our perspective. I.e. that divorce, that car wreck, that death, those taxes, that fire/flood. Do we think that could be what was meant? No. We do not think that could be what was meant. There are two problems with this argumentum ad calamitate (argument from calamity). The first is that circumstances which are beyond our control are also, by definition, beyond our "free will." We did not choose that divorce, car wreck, death, whatever tribulation befell us. Therefore, our hearts were not hardened by our own choice, free will, or volition. I know Ed's goal here is to exculpate god for what scripture plainly states (that he is the one who hardens hearts and turns people over to the wickedness of their ways); but by effectively eliminating free will here, he is also absolving us. Granted, while we cannot always control our circumstances, we can always control our response to them, which seems to peel back the curtain and allow free will to enter into the scenario again, until we examine the second problem. The second problem is that, while we are not always in control, god is (supposedly). god has a plan, right? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done and all that. So, if this is true, then the calamity which befell us, the trial, tribulation, tragedy, or triumph, was all part of god's plan. Yet, it was the very calamity that pushed us over the edge, heartened our hearts, irrevocably turned us away from god. But god's omniscience indicates that he is already aware that this hardship will be the end of our faith; yet he plans for it anyway. He has always known that this would be the very straw that broke the camel's back, as it were; yet he puts us through it anyway. A truly loving god would know where our breaking point is; and would steer well clear of it. But not the christian god. He just hardens people's hearts, exactly like the scripture says he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: The second problem is that, while we are not always in control, god is (supposedly). god has a plan, right? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done and all that. So, if this is true, then the calamity which befell us, the trial, tribulation, tragedy, or triumph, was all part of god's plan. Yet, it was the very calamity that pushed us over the edge, heartened our hearts, irrevocably turned us away from god. But god's omniscience indicates that he is already aware that this hardship will be the end of our faith; yet he plans for it anyway. He has always known that this would be the very straw that broke the camel's back, as it were; yet he puts us through it anyway. A truly loving god would know where our breaking point is; and would steer well clear of it. But not the christian god. All these versions of Isaiah 45 : 7 agree that god himself creates the calamities and disasters that befall us, Prof. New Heart English Bible I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things. World English Bible I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create calamity. I am Yahweh, who does all these things. GOD'S WORD® Translation I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things. Good News Translation I create both light and darkness; I bring both blessing and disaster. I, the LORD, do all these things. International Standard Version "I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things. Literal Standard Version Forming light, and creating darkness, | Making peace, and creating calamity, | I [am] YHWH, doing all these things. Majority Standard Bible I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things. NASB 1995 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. NASB 1977 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. Legacy Standard Bible The One forming light and creating darkness, Producing peace and creating calamity; I am Yahweh who does all these. Amplified Bible The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things. Christian Standard Bible I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things. Holman Christian Standard Bible I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.” New International Version I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. English Standard Version I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. Berean Standard Bible I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things. New King James Version I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’ New American Standard Bible The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 Hey Prof! Do you think it's ok for me to ask Edgarcito which version of the bible he reads? Seeing as asking him to tell us what it actually says seems to be off limits? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 17 Super Moderator Share Posted July 17 You can ask. Worst he can do is not answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: You can ask. Worst he can do is not answer. Ok then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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