Why would a perfect garden need anyone to look after it?

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So we have unimpeded will, free will.  Yes, I gather it has eternal implications for reasons we don't understand.  If you however Walter, understand why we are all here doing what we do, please share.  I'm hoping and trusting that we all return to gardening with acute awareness of the potential of communing with evil.  Rain and geosmin are such better smells than rot, decay, and death....

 

Yes, God was responsible.

 

But you've dodged the question that we've been focusing on for several pages.

 

It doesn't matter if we have free will now (though Romans 11 : 32 says we don't) the question is, did Eve have free will when it mattered?

 

By agreeing that Satan influenced her then you are saying that she didn't.

 

Is that what you're saying?

 

That Eve didn't make a free choice because she was hindered/impeded/influenced by Satan?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I think you were the one that said their free will was violated.

Either you think incorrectly, or you're being dishonest.  My position all along has been that they were created already sinful, not that they had free will and it was violated.

 

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You said free meant unimpeded....no hinderances.

No.  I did not.  Those terms came straight from the definition you posted.

 

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Therefore, the input from God and Satan would act as hinderances one way or another with their lack of knowledge.  God's input was straightforward.  Satan's was a temptation.  

Eve would not have known the difference.  And the hinderances themselves would preclude her from making a free will decision, per your own definition and arguments. 

 

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

She was capable of "will" and I used YOUR definition of free for the rest.

More dishonesty.  I have given no definition of "free."  You, and you alone, have provided the definitions that we have all been using.

 

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

They had free will and it was Satan that did it. 

If satan did it, why did god blame Adam and Eve?  And why are you also blaming them?

 

43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Well brother, He gave you His level of wisdom about good and evil and you are still picking incorrectly...

This is nothing more than your assertion and opinion, which has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

[walterpthefirst]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So we have unimpeded will, free will.  Yes, I gather it has eternal implications for reasons we don't understand.  If you however Walter, understand why we are all here doing what we do, please share.  I'm hoping and trusting that we all return to gardening with acute awareness of the potential of communing with evil.  Rain and geosmin are such better smells than rot, decay, and death....

 

Yes, God was responsible.

 

God was responsible for allowing Satan to impede Eve's free will?

 

Meaning that god was responsible for denying her the chance to freely decide to obey him?

 

Meaning that the true cause of her disobedience wasn't her own will, but god's?

 

Meaning that he blamed her for disobeying him, when in truth, he caused her to disobey him?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

They had free will and it was Satan that did it.  

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Yes, God was responsible.

Color me confused, Ed.  First you said satan did it, then you said god was responsible.  But you still somehow also want to say Eve made a free will choice and so she's to blame.  Make up your mind.

[walterpthefirst]

10 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Does the bible say that Adam and Eve could discern the goodness of god's creation?

 

Nope.

 

Genesis 1 : 27 - 31

 

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 

30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

 

 

In verse 31 we read that only god saw that all he had made was very good.

 

Not Adam, nor Eve.

 

Which means that even if he had made their will 'very good' as you assert, they would not have been able to know this.

 

Only after they ate did they come to understand and know good and evil.

 

And by then it was too late.

 

 

Following on from this I'm going to show from the bible that god only interacted with Eve TWICE before he expelled her from Eden.  The first time is quoted above, in Genesis 1 : 28 and 29, when god spoke to her and Adam.  The second and last time god spoke to Eve was the only time that he addressed her directly.

 

Genesis 3 : 13

 

Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”  The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

 

Genesis 3 : 16

 

 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labour you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”

 

And that's it.  According to scripture god and Eve interacted in a dialogue just once.  And she said just six words to god.  The other times god spoke to her and Adam, without them replying and then finally, he spoke to her, to curse her.  That's the sum total of god's interactions with Eve.  There is nothing more.

 

So, for Edgarcito to assert that Eve learned anything moral by interacting with god is false.  The bible doesn't support his argument and he's got to add to scripture (forbidden by god!) to say that she did.

 

Ed's other assertion, that Adam and Eve would have known that the creation was good, is disproved by Genesis 1 : 31 and also the lack of any scriptural evidence saying they could.

 

So his 'learning morality and goodness through interaction and experience' argument is dead. 

 

It contradicts the bible, which is the only source he, as a Christian, can use.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Ed,

 

In case you're inclined to backpedal from saying god is responsible and try to put the blame for Satan influencing Eve back on Satan, let me direct your attention to your border, the one between Texas and Mexico.

 

When illegal immigrants cross that border are they the one's responsible for the it being open to them?  The answer is, of course, no.  The responsibility (and therefore the blame) for the openness of the border is solely down the US authorities.

 

In the same way Satan was not responsible for the borders of Eden being open to him.  He was just doing what those immigrants are doing - taking advantage of an opportunity.  An opportunity gifted to him by the one responsible for keeping the borders of Eden safe.

 

And who might that be, I wonder?   

 

 

[mwc]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Ed,

 

In case you're inclined to backpedal from saying god is responsible and try to put the blame for Satan influencing Eve back on Satan, let me direct your attention to your border, the one between Texas and Mexico.

 

When illegal immigrants cross that border are they the one's responsible for the it being open to them?  The answer is, of course, no.  The responsibility (and therefore the blame) for the openness of the border is solely down the US authorities.

 

In the same way Satan was not responsible for the borders of Eden being open to him.  He was just doing what those immigrants are doing - taking advantage of an opportunity.  An opportunity gifted to him by the one responsible for keeping the borders of Eden safe.

 

And who might that be, I wonder?   

 

 

 

Quote

The Hebrew root for the verb "protect" in this verse is shamar (שָׁמַר), which first appears in the Bible in Gen. 2:15 where Adam was instructed to tend and "guard" the garden. It is also used in Gen. 17:9 where God instructed Abraham to "keep" His covenant. In fact, shamar is used over 400 times in the Tanakh, and the basic idea of the root is to "exercise great care over," to "watch over," to "guard," to "take heed," and to "tend" or restrain  (as a flock).

Hebrew4Christians

 

Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

 

Genesis 2:

8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

 

     The word also seems to appears in Genesis 3:24:

24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

     Here in the NIV translation it's "guard" but in others, such as KJV, it's "keep:"

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

 

     I think this offers some insight that "to take care of it" (as in the verse above) is too weak and "to keep it" in some versions would actually mean something more than to simply "maintain it" (which I think is a part of it) but to keep it in your control and even watch over it in the sense of someone who would be a guard.

 

     In this situation it would be Adam (and Eve) who would be responsible for the garden.

 

     Why this would be required in what we imagine to be a perfect paradise is beyond me but it appears to be the case given the text.

 

          mwc

 

[walterpthefirst]

This is a fascinating insight mwc, one that raises all sorts of interesting questions.

 

Here's one.

 

Why else would god place Adam as a guard over Eden if god didn't already know that Satan was loose and unbound? 

This question is obviously meaningless in the context of the rest of the bible, where god is described as all-knowing.  Even before he created the universe, the Earth and Eden god would have known that Satan was going to be cast down to earth, to be free and unbound and to be heading right for Eve to deceive her. 

 

But if we take a leaf out of Edgarcito's playbook and assert that god only reacts in real time to events on Earth, what mwc says about god posting Adam as a guard destroys this argument.  By putting Adam on guard god clearly knew that Satan was a threat.  Once again it looks like god carries the can here.  

 

Whereas Edgarcito would have killed the rattler before it could harm his children, god let the serpent Satan do just that - harm his children.  

 

[walterpthefirst]

Here's another question.  (Or rather, here's old one that we can now revisit in the light of mwc's input.)

 

Why did god put a human guard over Eden when he could have bound Satan in chains and kept Eden safe that way?

When you think about it, its laughable to expect a recently-made human being to stand any kind of chance of guarding Eden against a cunning, shape-shifting archangel, the leader and strongest of the rebel angels who fell from heaven.  Especially when we read in three places in the bible of god exercising his power to keep the fallen angels in chains.  Its clear from scripture that god could do this himself or order an angel to do it.

 

2 Peter 2 : 4

 

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

 

Jude 1 : 6

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

Revelation 20 : 1 - 3

 

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

 

The fact that god did bind the fallen angels and will bind Satan demonstrates that he could have done this if it was his will to protect his children in the garden of Eden.  His all power and all knowledge do not change or fluctuate, varying in strength or potency over time.  He wasn't somehow less than all-knowing when Eden was created or less than all-powerful at that time.  That idea is unbiblical and for a Christian, heretical.

 

So, if god didn't protect Eden himself, as could easily have done, then he must have had a reason not to do so.

 

 

Btw, this is not my personal interpretation of scripture.  It says this plainly, in b&w in the pages of the bible.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This raises an interesting question for me. 

 

What were Adam and Eve supposed to guard the garden against?  As in, what was the danger or threat they were supposed to protect the garden from?

 

Was it... evil?

 

If so, do I really need to point out the obvious flaw in that plan?

[walterpthefirst]

Lastly, I'm going to take one of mwc's comments and one of mine, put them together and compare them to another passage of scripture.

 

mwc...

     Why this (placing Adam to guard Eden) would be required in what we imagine to be a perfect paradise is beyond me but it appears to be the case given the text.

 

me...

So, if god didn't protect Eden himself, as could easily have done, then he must have had a reason not to do so.

 

In Revelation 20 : 1 to 3 we read about one of god's loyal angels binding Satan with a chain in the abyss for a thousand years.  This is done...  "to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."  Later, things change.

 

Revelation 20 : 7 & 8

 

When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 

8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

 

God stops Satan from deceiving people when he wants to, but he also lets him do that when he wants to.  So, here is our answer to god's mysterious behaviour regarding Eden.  God would have foreknown that Satan intended to deceive Eve.  God had the power all along to bind Satan and stop him from deceiving Eve.  God bound some of the fallen angels, but not Satan.  By posting Adam as a guard the text indicates that god was aware of Satan's presence on Earth and his intention to enter Eden and go straight at Eve.

 

All of these things are highly mysterious and inexplicable if god is a god of love.  A loving and caring father does not deliberately expose his children to harm.  A father who has the power to protect his children and chooses not to do it is, by definition, neither caring nor loving. 

 

But there is a way to explain god's unloving and uncaring behaviour if we refer to the bible itself.

 

Romans 11 : 32

 

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

If it were god's desire to make the entire human race guilty of disobedience then here's the reason why god let Satan deceive Eve.  Here's the reason why he seems to act in an uncaring and unloving way towards Adam and Eve and towards us.  Because he wanted Eve to be deceived.

 

It was his intention for he to be deceived all along.  This explanation solves the riddle of why a loving and caring god didn't protect his children from harm.  They were just a means to his end of glorifying himself.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

9 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This raises an interesting question for me. 

 

What were Adam and Eve supposed to guard the garden against?  As in, what was the danger or threat they were supposed to protect the garden from?

 

Was it... evil?

 

If so, do I really need to point out the obvious flaw in that plan?

 

I have a vision of a pair of ants trying to stop a SUV and getting crushed under its wheels.

 

[walterpthefirst]

No.  Scratch that.  Not ants and an SUV.   Amoeba and a battle tank.

 

 

[mwc]

     So if an enemy came to the garden were they to kill it or run to god somehow (like pray and a lightning bolt comes down?)?

 

     The problem is if god knows the enemy is there and didn't kill it himself, like satan, then kills satan when they spot him then it's some weird test.  On the other hand maybe god does nothing even if they spot satan.  That seems to be the case since we're to understand he's still running around the planet even though he was right there being punished.

 

     Anyhow, they were clearly supposed to look for something from outside the garden.  I'd argue a wild animal given the text and the serpent but that doesn't address later interpretations.

 

          mwc

 

[walterpthefirst]

But surely there wouldn't have been any dangerous wild animals in the world before Adam and Eve sinned, mwc?

 

And we don't see any mention of dangerous animals in the bible until after the Flood, generations later.

 

Which leaves Satan as the only existential threat to their safety.

 

 

 

But don't worry.

 

God would protect them from any harm.

 

 

Ooops!  

[mwc]

11 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

But surely there wouldn't have been any dangerous wild animals in the world before Adam and Eve sinned, mwc?

     Define dangerous.

 

     Something like this was running around:

 

     Personally, I think the little vest and hat should have tipped Eve off.

 

          mwc

 

[walterpthefirst]

(Tongue in cheek.)

 

 

Uh no, mwc.

 

Eve had never seen any garments before god made them some.

 

Genesis 3 : 21

 

The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

 

He did this after the serpent had done its work.

 

So... no.

 

The vest and hat couldn't have tipped Eve off.

 

She wouldn't have understood what they were or their significance.

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

No.  Scratch that.  Not ants and an SUV.   Amoeba and a battle tank.

 

 

Interesting Walter, ultimately a man DOES win....

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Interesting Walter, ultimately a man DOES win....

 

 

 

Nope.   I must be too stupid to understand, Ed.

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

 

Nope.   I must be too stupid to understand, Ed.

I gathered you were saying it wasn't a fair fight...man against Satan.  Yet ultimately a man, Jesus, wins and takes everyone of the group that thinks evil sucks, with Him....to Newness.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I gathered you were saying it wasn't a fair fight...man against Satan.  Yet ultimately a man, Jesus, wins and takes everyone of the group that thinks evil sucks, with Him....to Newness.

 

At what cost to Adam and Eve?

 

At what cost to the billions god sends to hell?

 

At what cost to all of creation?

 

At what cost to this child?

 

 

All of this is caused by god.

 

This is the price we have to pay for god to glorify himself as Jesus.

 

Yet you seem happy with that price.

 

So, tell me again, why would you kill the rattler that was threatening to harm your kids?

[Edgarcito]

7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

At what cost to Adam and Eve?

 

At what cost to the billions god sends to hell?

 

At what cost to all of creation?

 

At what cost to this child?

 

 

All of this is caused by god.

 

This is the price we have to pay for god to glorify himself as Jesus.

 

Yet you seem happy with that price.

 

So, tell me again, why would you kill the rattler that was threatening to harm your kids?

You'd make an excellent Democrat over here in the States Walter.  They are all about blame and lack of self-responsibility.  Free stuff, take care of me, no fight.  God punished all three of them....remember.

[Edgarcito]

Let me ask you this Walter.  

 

You said ultimately every action was part of a moral/immoral dichotomy.

 

Then you said that it's ultimately God, bottom line.

 

Then somehow you side with Satan that it's God's fault.  

 

Doesn't that strike you as odd?  If God is in control of it all and God is purportedly on the right side of things.  And I KNOW you are likely too, then why do you not side with God?   

[TheRedneckProfessor]

19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I gathered you were saying it wasn't a fair fight...man against Satan.  Yet ultimately a man, Jesus, wins

Man against Satan was not what made it an unfair fight.  Rather, what made it an unfair fight was man having absolutely no idea that Satan posed a threat to him.  Man had no way of recognizing friend from foe, good from evil, safety from danger.  And god set it up that way deliberately. 

 

Secondly, jesus wasn't really a man, in the same sense that Adam was, or even in the sense that we are.  jesus was also god, and knew the full extent of both good and evil, having created them both.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

God is purportedly on the right side of things.

"Purportedly" is the operative phrase here.  But just because god is purportedly on the right side of things, doesn't mean he actually is.  Scripture makes it pretty plain that he's not.