Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 In other words, what level of information would God have given Adam and Eve to make the right decision regarding good and evil. OUR level? Our level doesn't appear to be sufficient... And the He says IF humanity has that level of information, they must not have eternal life. So can we surmise that they had eternal life in Eden already but limited knowledge. Enter Jesus? That we are being made perfect/finished? See Walter, you just haven't gone far enough with your inquiry and have stopped short of the answers.....which I don't think you really are that person, but would rather know....and are likely smart enough to give it a good go. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Free will is the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe1. It is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded2. Free will is also the ability to decide what to do independently of any outside influence3. With free will comes moral responsibility, which indicates that if we make a choice that is good, we deserve the resulting rewards4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: You haven't demonstrated that will has anything to do with anything. You're more talking about will based off an informed choice. How dear friend, can free will be free if it's informed?????? That would be God, not Eve. So let's ask ourselves please to move the conversation to "will or free will, what is it?" Thx. You've already answered that one, Ed. You said that Eve was a blank void, empty of knowledge. That she had no understanding of what she was doing. That she couldn't discern good from evil. That she couldn't foresee or anticipate the consequences of her actions. Surely, to make a free willed decision you have to have these things in place? That free will means possessing the power and ability to understand, to know good from evil and to be able to anticipate the consequences of your actions? Seeing as you've already described these things, wouldn't you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Free will is the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe1. It is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded2. Free will is also the ability to decide what to do independently of any outside influence3. With free will comes moral responsibility, which indicates that if we make a choice that is good, we deserve the resulting rewards4. Exactly! Which agrees very nicely with what you've already said about Eve. That she didn't acquire these powers and capacities until after she ate the fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Exactly! Which agrees very nicely with what you've already said about Eve. That she didn't acquire these powers and capacities until after she ate the fruit. Then she had free will prior to... Do you not read that in the definition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 Just now, Edgarcito said: Then she had free will prior to... Do you not read that in the definition? I did. But by your definition of what Eve was, she didn't acquire free will until after she ate. That definition only applies to her after, not before. Please read your own definitions again and please also look at when you said she acquired the abilities. You said, after she ate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, walterpthefirst said: I did. But by your definition of what Eve was, she didn't acquire free will until after she ate. That definition only applies to her after, not before. Please read your own definitions again and please also look at when you said she acquired the abilities. You said, after she ate. I don't remember saying that at all. Knowledge of good and evil, yes, but not free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 The definition I just posted means free will prior to any event or state. In A&E created state, they had free will. without ever taking a step forwards or backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Free will is the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe Which the bible and you say that Eve didn't have until after she ate. 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: It is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded And you said that Eve couldn't discern between good and evil before she ate. So she didn't have this capacity until after she ate. 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: . Free will is also the ability to decide what to do independently of any outside influence You also said that Eve had no understanding. Therefore she could not have understood that she was being influenced by Satan before she ate. She could only understand that after, which is why the Bible says that her eyes were opened after she ate. 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: With free will comes moral responsibility, which indicates that if we make a choice that is good, we deserve the resulting reward. But you said that Eve could not discern good from evil before she ate. Therefore she had no concept of moral responsibility or punishment and reward until after she ate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I don't remember saying that at all. Knowledge of good and evil, yes, but not free will. So, your own definition of what Eve lacked isn't also a good definition of free will is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said: Which the bible and you say that Eve didn't have until after she ate. And you said that Eve couldn't discern between good and evil before she ate. So she didn't have this capacity until after she ate. You also said that Eve had no understanding. Therefore she could not have understood that she was being influenced by Satan before she ate. She could only understand that after, which is why the Bible says that her eyes were opened after she ate. But you said that Eve could not discern good from evil before she ate. Therefore she had no concept of moral responsibility or punishment and reward until after she ate. That is NOT what I said. Please find ANYWHERE where I have directly stated her free will came AFTER she ate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said: So, your own definition of what Eve lacked isn't also a good definition of free will is? I'm going to hang up Walter if you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Stop and re-think, re-read what I have posted. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: The definition I just posted means free will prior to any event or state. In A&E created state, they had free will. without ever taking a step forwards or backwards. But the definition you posted several pages back contradicts what you posted today. Back then you said that Eve was a blank slate, devoid of the ability to discern good from evil and with no concept of the consequences of her actions. Today you are saying the opposite. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: That is NOT what I said. Please find ANYWHERE where I have directly stated her free will came AFTER she ate. The logic of is inherent in your argument. Just as it never says in the bible that Adam and Eve chose to sin and disobey god. Christians just infer that from the logic the text. That because they were created in god's image they therefore just have had free will. But the bible doesn't directly state that ANYWHERE. As Devil's Advocate I'm holding to the script and the logic of script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: But the definition you posted several pages back contradicts what you posted today. Back then you said that Eve was a blank slate, devoid of the ability to discern good from evil and with no concept of the consequences of her actions. Today you are saying the opposite. Which is it? The bolded matches with the definition or do you disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 25 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Free will is the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe1. It is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded2. Free will is also the ability to decide what to do independently of any outside influence3. With free will comes moral responsibility, which indicates that if we make a choice that is good, we deserve the resulting rewards4. Matches THIS bolded. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I'm going to hang up Walter if you can't comprehend what I'm saying. Stop and re-think, re-read what I have posted. Thanks. Fine. But for the record, you're the one caught in a bind of your own making. Not me. You've already defined what free will is, but you just won't accept your own definition. Because it contradicts what you want the bible the to say. You want Eve to have known and understood what she was doing before she ate. But, by the definition you've already given, she didn't until after she ate. And the bible agrees with this. Genesis 3 : 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Their understanding, discernment and realisation came after, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: The definition I just posted means free will prior to any event or state. In A&E created state, they had free will. without ever taking a step forwards or backwards. Which is congruent with THIS bolded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, walterpthefirst said: Fine. But for the record, you're the one caught in a bind of your own making. Not me. You've already defined what free will is, but you just won't accept your own definition. Because it contradicts what you want the bible the to say. You want Eve to have known and understood what she was doing before she ate. But, by the definition you've already given, she didn't until after she ate. And the bible agrees with this. Genesis 3 : 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Their understanding, discernment and realisation came after, not before. I'm sorry you can't put those three bolded thoughts together Walter. Not my issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 Back then you said that Eve was a blank slate, devoid of the ability to discern good from evil and with no concept of the consequences of her actions. Free will is the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe1. It is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded2. These two do not match. If a person has no ability to discern good from evil and has no concept of the consequences of their actions then they do not have the human capacity to make free willed decisions and perform actions on that basis. They cannot choose between two different possible courses of action (good and evil) because they cannot discern the difference between them. Which agrees with what you wrote about Eve, several pages back, Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Which is congruent with THIS bolded. No, it is not congruent. The bible clearly says that they only acquired free will after they ate the fruit. Your latest definition has to agree with the bible, not the other way round. As a Christian you should always be lead by scripture, god's Word, not the writings of men. As Devil's Advocate I am sticking to god's Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said: Back then you said that Eve was a blank slate, devoid of the ability to discern good from evil and with no concept of the consequences of her actions. Free will is the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe1. It is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded2. These two do not match. If a person has no ability to discern good from evil and has no concept of the consequences of their actions then they do not have the human capacity to make free willed decisions and perform actions on that basis. They cannot choose between two different possible courses of action (good and evil) because they cannot discern the difference between them. Which agrees with what you wrote about Eve, several pages back, Ed. How do you not read "independently of any prior event or state of the Universe". When Adam was formed, He had free will. When Eve was added, SHE had free will per this definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: How do you not read "independently of any prior event or state of the Universe". When Adam was formed, He had free will. When Eve was added, SHE had free will per this definition. So you don't agree with your own definition of free will? The ability to discern good from evil? The knowledge and understanding of the consequences of your own actions? All the things you said Eve lacked? Now you want free will to be something else? Something which you haven't yet defined, but which isn't what you wrote earlier? Simple question, Ed. Why isn't the definition you gave of what Eve lacked not a good working definition of free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: How do you not read "independently of any prior event or state of the Universe". When Adam was formed, He had free will. When Eve was added, SHE had free will per this definition. This contradicts scripture. It says that they only acquired free will after they ate. Then their eyes were opened to the consequences of what they had done, which is why they hid from god. Then, after they ate, they knew within themselves that they had sinned and disobeyed him. Before they ate they did did not know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: This contradicts scripture. It says that they only acquired free will after they ate. Then their eyes were opened to the consequences of what they had done, which is why they hid from god. Then, after they ate, they knew within themselves that they had sinned and disobeyed him. Before they ate they did did not know this. The definition says they didn't have to know anything or experience anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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