Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Not how it went down brother... Quote your scriptures that show how it went down, then. I'm happy to quote Genesis 3... again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Quote your scriptures that show how it went down, then. I'm happy to quote Genesis 3... again. 3:1 is where it started with the serpent speaking first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: They were all external to A&E, In God's possession, in Satan's possession, but not theirs......was still on the tree "to be picked". Then how did Eve already have the ability to sin, Ed? How could she lie, if sin was still on the tree to be picked? How could she feel pride and envy about what god had that she didn't have, if sin was still on the tree to be picked? How could she have experience desire for what god had forbidden if sin was still on the tree to be picked? Yesterday you were demanding that I demonstrate the mechanisms. Now it's your turn to do the same. Explain how Eve was able to sin, if sin was external to her, in god's possession, the serpent's possession, but not hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: 3:1 is where it started with the serpent speaking first... And 3:2 is when Eve lied. Immediately after the serpent asked her a question. How could she lie, and so quickly, if she wasn't already sinful? How, Ed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Then how did Eve already have the ability to sin, Ed? How could she lie, if sin was still on the tree to be picked? How could she feel pride and envy about what god had that she didn't have, if sin was still on the tree to be picked? How could she have experience desire for what god had forbidden if sin was still on the tree to be picked? Yesterday you were demanding that I demonstrate the mechanisms. Now it's your turn to do the same. Explain how Eve was able to sin, if sin was external to her, in god's possession, the serpent's possession, but not hers. She accepted sin. She accepted Satan. You will notice when people get saved in the church it's always, "do you accept Christ". It's like communion. You accept symbolic sacrifice. Same way in our lives....we may accept crap we know is not right and do it anyhow. Very much the same. I don't know how the transfer was made....just that she was impregnated basically.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: She accepted sin. No, Ed. She had no way of knowing what sin was. She had no way of knowing that god was "good" or that the serpent was "evil." She simply sinned. She lied because that is how she was created. There was no moral acceptance of known evil on her part. There was simply a choice, which, for her, bore no moral or ethical ramifications. That is not acceptance. 10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I don't know how the transfer was made....just that she was impregnated basically.... At the time she lied, she was still in the state in which god created her, so either god "impregnated" her with sin or god... created her with sin... you know, like I've been saying all along. Either way, prior to the serpent entering the story, only god and Adam had access to her. If it was Adam, then Adam must have already been sinful, which simply supports my point that they were created sinful. Now, I know you'll try to say that the serpent must have impregnated her; but you have no scripture to back that claim up with. Plus, we both know that the serpent merely asked her a question, which could not have prompted such a lie, were sin not already present within her. So... god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casualfanboy16 Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 23 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I don't know how the transfer was made....just that she was impregnated basically.... Sin impregnation is the funniest concept I've ever heard. A boy? A girl? No! It's sin itself!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 17 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No, Ed. She had no way of knowing what sin was. She had no way of knowing that god was "good" or that the serpent was "evil." She simply sinned. She lied because that is how she was created. There was no moral acceptance of known evil on her part. There was simply a choice, which, for her, bore no moral or ethical ramifications. That is not acceptance. At the time she lied, she was still in the state in which god created her, so either god "impregnated" her with sin or god... created her with sin... you know, like I've been saying all along. Either way, prior to the serpent entering the story, only god and Adam had access to her. If it was Adam, then Adam must have already been sinful, which simply supports my point that they were created sinful. Now, I know you'll try to say that the serpent must have impregnated her; but you have no scripture to back that claim up with. Plus, we both know that the serpent merely asked her a question, which could not have prompted such a lie, were sin not already present within her. So... god? The flow went from the serpent to Eve to THEN Adam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: The flow went from the serpent to Eve to THEN Adam... Except that Eve lied first. Neither the serpent nor Adam ever lied, according to the text. Yes, the serpent was the first to speak; but nothing he said or did compelled her to lie. Unless you can demonstrate that the serpent coerced, forced, manipulated, or otherwise produced the lie within her, then there is absolutely no compelling reason not to believe that the lie was already within her. Not asking you to explain how the serpent did so; but you are going to have to show him actually doing it somewhere in the text. Otherwise, you're just grasping at straws. And you have yet to refute the claim that Eve was created sinful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: The flow went from the serpent to Eve to THEN Adam... So, Adam could not have "impregnated" her with sin, then? The Serpent could not have, either, since he merely asked her a question. So... god? And why bother "impregnating" her with sin when he could just... create her with sin? You know, like I've been saying all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 20 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: So, Adam could not have "impregnated" her with sin, then? The Serpent could not have, either, since he merely asked her a question. So... god? And why bother "impregnating" her with sin when he could just... create her with sin? You know, like I've been saying all along. Infection is a better word. Is good sin? Is evil sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Infection is a better word. Changing the word doesn't change the outcome, Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Is good sin? Is evil sin? For us, as morally aware beings, the answer to both is "Sometimes." Eve had no way of knowing at the point she first lied to the serpent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casualfanboy16 Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Infection is a better word. naah sin impregnation is better 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: You were a knowledgeable person W. Why don't you tell us what your take always was please sir. On second thought I will reply to your question. In no way do I believe the Adam and Eve story is true. After reading the Sumerian stories of creation (which I also do not know for sure is true) I believe Hebrew writers centuries later plagiarized and dramatically modified the "garden of Eden" story. It was a ploy to convince the masses of uneducated people that they were inferior and needed a sadistic and narcissistic "god". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said: naah sin impregnation is better I think you're right.....Eve, mother of all the living. Good call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: For us, as morally aware beings, the answer to both is "Sometimes." Eve had no way of knowing at the point she first lied to the serpent. Well didn't her "will" choose anyhow??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 11 Super Moderator Share Posted July 11 4 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Well didn't her "will" choose anyhow??? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 8 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Well didn't her "will" choose anyhow??? Why don't you answer that question yourself, Ed? You've already said that before she ate the fruit she was a blank slate, a void without any means of knowing right from wrong and good from evil. That she had no understanding of what she was doing. That she had no discernment and no way of anticipating or foreseeing the consequences of disobeying god and eating the fruit. So, if she had none of these things, was she a moral agent who could make a free WILLED choice? If Yes, then... how? If No, then we can move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 12 hours ago, Edgarcito said: She accepted sin. She accepted Satan. You will notice when people get saved in the church it's always, "do you accept Christ". It's like communion. You accept symbolic sacrifice. Same way in our lives....we may accept crap we know is not right and do it anyhow. Very much the same. I don't know how the transfer was made....just that she was impregnated basically.... This is a false comparison, Ed. Eve had none of what it takes to make the same kind of free-willed choice that people make in church. You've said so yourself, when you said she had no understanding of her actions and no way to discern good from evil. The bible is also against your here. It says that everyone descended from Eve (the mother of all the living) has the ability to judge right from wrong. But before they ate the fruit neither Adam nor Eve didn't had this ability. (And you've agreed with this.) So you can't compare the choice made by Eve with the choices made by anyone after she was expelled from Eden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 On 7/9/2024 at 8:24 PM, Edgarcito said: Two interactions.... either with God or Adam, you choose. She took in what Adam had to say vs. taking in what Satan had to say. So where exactly in the chain of transfers did God interrupt her and make her sin? Was it in the genetics? Did He supernaturally impose himself in the conversation? You said she was created sinful. HOW? WHERE? WHEN? By WHAT MECHANISMS? You can't do it John and you know it. Put up or hush. This applies to you too, Ed. You keep insisting that Eve made a free-willed choice before she ate the fruit. But when asked how by the Prof and myself you have failed to give any kind of answer. You can't or won't give us the HOW, the MECHANISM by which Eve made that supposedly free-willed choice. I won't be so bold as you and claim that you can't do it and you know you can't do it. Instead I'll just say that I don't think you can do it and say how Eve freely chose. But here's your chance to prove my thinking wrong. How did Eve make the free-willed choice, Ed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 4 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: This applies to you too, Ed. You keep insisting that Eve made a free-willed choice before she ate the fruit. But when asked how by the Prof and myself you have failed to give any kind of answer. You can't or won't give us the HOW, the MECHANISM by which Eve made that supposedly free-willed choice. I won't be so bold as you and claim that you can't do it and you know you can't do it. Instead I'll just say that I don't think you can do it and say how Eve freely chose. But here's your chance to prove my thinking wrong. How did Eve make the free-willed choice, Ed? She accepted, trusted what the serpent said and acted. The physiology for that? Good question. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: She accepted, trusted what the serpent said and acted. The physiology for that? Good question. Thx. Thank you, Ed. I'm now going to take abilities that you've wrote about earlier and match them up with what you've written today. Please look at these examples and see if you think that Eve was making a free-willed decision when she acted. She accepted, trusted what the serpent said and acted. But at that time she was unable to discern good from evil. She was only able to discern from evil after she ate the fruit. She accepted, trusted what the serpent said and acted. But at that time she didn't possess an understanding of the consequences of what she was doing. She was only able to understand the consequences after she ate the fruit. She accepted, trusted what the serpent said and acted. But at that time she was empty, void of knowledge. She only became filled with knowledge after she ate the fruit. So which is it? Did she make a free willed choice before she ate, without the abilities you listed? Or did she become capable of making a free willed choice after she ate, with all the abilities you listed, now in place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 11 Author Share Posted July 11 There's another way of looking at this, Ed. By using asking ourselves WHEN in the story timeline Eve became capable of making free willed decisions? Like this, using the bible to guide us. A ) Did Eve became capable of making free willed choices immediately that god created from Adam's rib? B ) Did Eve become capable at any time before Satan entered Eden? C ) Did she become capable after talking to Satan, but before she ate the fruit? D ) Did she become capable after eating the the fruit? The answer can only be one of these options. She can't have become capable twice, that would contradict what the bible says. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 25 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: There's another way of looking at this, Ed. By using asking ourselves WHEN in the story timeline Eve became capable of making free willed decisions? Like this, using the bible to guide us. A ) Did Eve became capable of making free willed choices immediately that god created from Adam's rib? B ) Did Eve become capable at any time before Satan entered Eden? C ) Did she become capable after talking to Satan, but before she ate the fruit? D ) Did she become capable after eating the the fruit? The answer can only be one of these options. She can't have become capable twice, that would contradict what the bible says. What do you think? You haven't demonstrated that will has anything to do with anything. You're more talking about will based off an informed choice. How dear friend, can free will be free if it's informed?????? That would be God, not Eve. So let's ask ourselves please to move the conversation to "will or free will, what is it?" Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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