Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 9 Super Moderator Share Posted July 9 26 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Two interactions.... either with God or Adam, you choose. She took in what Adam had to say vs. taking in what Satan had to say. So where exactly in the chain of transfers did God interrupt her and make her sin? Was it in the genetics? Did He supernaturally impose himself in the conversation? You said she was created sinful. HOW? WHERE? WHEN? By WHAT MECHANISMS? You can't do it John and you know it. Put up or hush. Oh, I see the goalposts have shifted again. How disingenuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Oh, I see the goalposts have shifted again. How disingenuous. No shift, same inquiry for the 37th time. Your claim that you can't answer and won't because you don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 9 Super Moderator Share Posted July 9 15 hours ago, Edgarcito said: No shift, same inquiry for the 37th time. Your claim that you can't answer and won't because you don't know. Yes. What you are doing is shifting the goalposts. I made the claim that Eve was created sinful. I built a case in support of that claim based entirely on scripture. You cannot refute the claim itself; nor can you refute any of the points supporting the claim. So, because you cannot refute my claim, you are instead claiming that because I didn't explain some unrelated point I never attempted to explain, and have no reason to explain, then my entire claim must be bullshit. This is the textbook definition of shifting the goalposts. Can you demonstrate the exact mechanism by which a serpent could speak in a human language? If not, then snakes do not exist. Therefore, since snakes do not exist, it must have been her interaction with god that made her sin. Only she never had an interaction with god. So it must have been her interaction with Adam. But if interacting with Adam made her sin, then Adam must have been created sinful. Your own dishonest tactic defeats your paltry attempt to use it. Look, Ed, I do not need to be able to explain how god created her sinful. My claim does not depend on it; and neither do any of the points I have made to support my claim. It is enough to know that before she ate the fruit, while she was still in the exact state in which god created her, she was able to lie to the serpent. Given that she was able to sin the way god created her, god must have created her sinful. Now, if you cannot refute my claim, point by point, then I'm going to call it a day. I have no interest in going around in circles just to meet your need for attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 41 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Yes. What you are doing is shifting the goalposts. I made the claim that Eve was created sinful. I built a case in support of that claim based entirely on scripture. You cannot refute the claim itself; nor can you refute any of the points supporting the claim. So, because you cannot refute my claim, you are instead claiming that because I didn't explain some unrelated point I never attempted to explain, and have no reason to explain, then my entire claim must be bullshit. This is the textbook definition of shifting the goalposts. Can you demonstrate the exact mechanism by which a serpent could speak in a human language? If not, then snakes do not exist. Therefore, since snakes do not exist, it must have been her interaction with god that made her sin. Only she never had an interaction with god. So it must have been her interaction with Adam. But if interacting with Adam made her sin, the Adam must have been created sinful. Your own dishonest tactic defeats your paltry attempt to use it. Look, Ed, I do not need to be able to explain how god created her sinful. My claim does not depend on it; and neither do any of the points I have made to support my claim. It is enough to know that before she ate the fruit, while she was still in the exact state in which god created her, she was able to lie to the serpent. Given that she was able to sin the way god created her, god must have created her sinful. Now, if you cannot refute my claim, point by point, then I'm going to call it a day. I have no interest in going around in circles just to meet your need for attention. No, sinful as you are describing would be the inability to resist sin. That "sinful" made her automatically guilty of sin prior to ANY conversations. I don't see that as valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 9 Super Moderator Share Posted July 9 9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No, sinful as you are describing would be the inability to resist sin. That "sinful" made her automatically guilty of sin prior to ANY conversations. I don't see that as valid. So then refute it with something more substantial than strawman arguments and bald assertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 10 Author Share Posted July 10 Let me try this another way, Ed. If you lacked an inner moral compass, had received no moral training in your upbringing, had received no valuable life lessons from your friends and peers, could not discern right from wrong or good from evil and didn't possess the mental power to anticipate the outcome of your actions would you be a moral agent capable of making free-willed decisions? Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Quote I can do what I will: I can, if I will, give everything I have to the poor and thus become poor myself—if I will! But I cannot will this, because the opposing motives have much too much power over me for me to be able to. On the other hand, if I had a different character, even to the extent that I were a saint, then I would be able to will it. But then I could not keep from willing it, and hence I would have to do so. — Chapter III [A]s little as a ball on a billiard table can move before receiving an impact, so little can a man get up from his chair before being drawn or driven by a motive. But then his getting up is as necessary and inevitable as the rolling of a ball after the impact. And to expect that anyone will do something to which absolutely no interest impels them is the same as to expect that a piece of wood shall move toward me without being pulled by a string. — Ibid. Wikipedia Perhaps these examples will help demonstrate your point? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 19 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: So then refute it with something more substantial than strawman arguments and bald assertions. Just the standard... God said creation was very good as opposed to very good and some evil. And to a larger point, without knowing what God knows, it's impossible to understand the rigid definition of what sinful is anyhow...hence Grace. Good conversation....we didn't kill each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Just the standard... God said creation was very good as opposed to very good and some evil. And to a larger point, without knowing what God knows, it's impossible to understand the rigid definition of what sinful is anyhow...hence Grace. Good conversation....we didn't kill each other. None of this refutes the claim that Eve was created sinful. And, to a larger point, without knowing what god knows, it's impossible to understand the rigid definition of what "good" is anyway... hence, he created her sinful, but still said it was "good" because it was according to his plan. So, your own argument defeats itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 24 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: None of this refutes the claim that Eve was created sinful. And, to a larger point, without knowing what god knows, it's impossible to understand the rigid definition of what "good" is anyway... hence, he created her sinful, but still said it was "good" because it was according to his plan. So, your own argument defeats itself. No, not totally. They had access to God...to understand, to know Him. ...also in the OT, and now through the Bible and the Holy Spirit. One suggestion is He allows access to sin that we may experience evil and decide. It's our decision to accept into our lives good or evil almost like they are NOT part of our entity, but things we accept or deny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No, not totally. They had access to God...to understand, to know Him. But they had no way of understanding, or knowing, that god was "good." You know, because of the whole not knowing the difference between good and evil thing. 17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: One suggestion is He allows access to sin that we may experience evil and decide. It's our decision to accept into our lives good or evil almost like they are NOT part of our entity, but things we accept or deny. But Eve was able to tell a lie before she had any experience of "evil" or "sin". Almost like it was part of her entity, regardless of whether she accepted or denied it. Quit overlooking this point. So, you still have not refuted the claim that Eve was created sinful. At this rate, we're never going to get around to discussing her inability to resist evil, or the fact that she was already guilty even before she had any conversations or made any decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: But they had no way of understanding, or knowing, that god was "good." You know, because of the whole not knowing the difference between good and evil thing. But Eve was able to tell a lie before she had any experience of "evil" or "sin". Almost like it was part of her entity, regardless of whether she accepted or denied it. Quit overlooking this point. So, you still have not refuted the claim that Eve was created sinful. At this rate, we're never going to get around to discussing her inability to resist evil, or the fact that she was already guilty even before she had any conversations or made any decisions. Dude, I'm done. If I think of something, I will come back. In the interim, you believe what you want and I'll do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Dude, I'm done. If I think of something, I will come back. In the interim, you believe what you want and I'll do the same. Dang. Seems like we have heard that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 2 minutes ago, Weezer said: Dang. Seems like we have heard that before. You were a knowledgeable person W. Why don't you tell us what your take always was please sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 36 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: So, you still have not refuted the claim that Eve was created sinful. At this rate, we're never going to get around to discussing her inability to resist evil, or the fact that she was already guilty even before she had any conversations or made any decisions. She didn't lie until after the Devil spoke.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: You were a knowledgeable person W. Why don't you tell us what your take always was please sir. Perhaps I should have kept silent. The devil made me do it. But since you asked, after the first few pages of this discussion I tuned it out. Just checked in occasionally to see if it was still going. The way I see it, these discussions you guys have are basically the same old song, just a different verse, and always comes out with a stalemate. Not my cup of tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 48 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: She didn't lie until after the Devil spoke.... The devil didn't lie. She did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: The devil didn't lie. She did. She accepted what he offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Where was good and evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 32 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: She accepted what he offered. But she lied, first. Irrespective of what happened, or what she accepted, after the conversation, Eve had already lied. And nothing in the Serpent's question prompted her to lie. "Hath god said...?" and immediately, Eve lied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Where was good and evil? You will say "in the fruit" without being able to offer any evidence that it was. I'll say "already in the hearts of Adam and Eve" based on the scriptural fact that Eve lied, felt pride, and desired what god had forbidden before she ate the fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 9 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: But she lied, first. Irrespective of what happened, or what she accepted, after the conversation, Eve had already lied. And nothing in the Serpent's question prompted her to lie. "Hath god said...?" and immediately, Eve lied. What I read was, "Did God really say?" in contrast to 'you know God told you that you would die". Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 9 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: You will say "in the fruit" without being able to offer any evidence that it was. I'll say "already in the hearts of Adam and Eve" based on the scriptural fact that Eve lied, felt pride, and desired what god had forbidden before she ate the fruit. They were all external to A&E, In God's possession, in Satan's possession, but not theirs......was still on the tree "to be picked". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 10 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: You will say "in the fruit" without being able to offer any evidence that it was. I'll say "already in the hearts of Adam and Eve" based on the scriptural fact that Eve lied, felt pride, and desired what god had forbidden before she ate the fruit. Not how it went down brother... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 10 Super Moderator Share Posted July 10 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: What I read was, "Did God really say?" in contrast to 'you know God told you that you would die". Big difference. To you and I, perhaps; but not to someone who had absolutely no means of differentiating between good and evil, truth and falsehood. And even if the Serpent said it in a particular tone, were Eve "good" she would have been completely truthful in her response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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