walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: For clarity, I tend to agree with this, though an argument could also be made that those options were already programmed in as well. Personally, I'd like to see how Ed can possibly explain Adam and Eve having free will if, by his own analogy, they were just hardware with no software downloaded. It's like expecting a blank hard drive to suddenly start running Microsoft Office. But, as yet, he can only make claims with no scriptural, logical, or even reasonable support for them. Yes. Even though we may diverge on minor details Prof, we definitely converge, overlap and agree 100% when it comes to the issue of Eve supposedly making a choice to disobey god. She had no choice and made no choice. Either through programming by god or by violation of her free will by god. God made her do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Personally, I'd like to see how Ed can possibly explain Adam and Eve having free will if, by his own analogy, they were just hardware with no software downloaded. It's like expecting a blank hard drive to suddenly start running Microsoft Office. But, as yet, he can only make claims with no scriptural, logical, or even reasonable support for them. Or, to put your analogy another way, Prof... Who is responsible for making the computer run its software? The computer itself or the programmer who wrote and installed the software ? Ed seems to want it to be the computer's responsibility, not the programmer's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 14 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Personally, I'd like to see how Ed can possibly explain Adam and Eve having free will if, by his own analogy, they were just hardware with no software downloaded. It's like expecting a blank hard drive to suddenly start running Microsoft Office. But, as yet, he can only make claims with no scriptural, logical, or even reasonable support for them. Man I was just trying to figure out what Y'ALL were doing, imagining what y'all were thinking. No innate morality, no information, just hardware essentially. That leaves only one source of input....verbal, experiential interactions with God and Satan. Hence my conclusion that Eve took away good, pleasing, and desirable away from the conversation with Satan and acted. THEN she was downloaded with morality. The Bible says, "when the woman saw" in 3:6 immediately after talking with Satan in 3:5, that she "saw". Not sure how else to interpret that she saw wasn't a result of the conversation. ...and she simultaneously disobeyed God. As I said, it didn't say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Eve or gives us a notion that she was hardened by some experience in the Garden but acted as a result of her association with Satan. Both of you essentially in response have said "God did it" in one way or another. She had free will, but it was taken in this instance, or she didn't ever. Doesn't really matter, I guess. What we MIGHT consider given the trees and Satan are in the Garden is that God placed or allowed them there to initiate or accentuate the importance of the relationship to God as humans. Eve failed, Jonah failed, we fail. It's similar to a "hardening", imo, by our circumstances, the subjective portion of existence that we have little control over, to AFFECT our free will. Kind of like an illness or divorce or death of a loved one, or a tornado destroying our lives. We have a CHOICE of how we respond. Even picked wrongly on her own accord.... bound by her actions. Edited for "subjective"...thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 32 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Man I was just trying to figure out what Y'ALL were doing, imagining what y'all were thinking. No innate morality, no information, just hardware essentially. That leaves only one source of input....verbal, experiential interactions with God and Satan. Hence my conclusion that Eve took away good, pleasing, and desirable away from the conversation with Satan and acted. THEN she was downloaded with morality. The Bible says, "when the woman saw" in 3:6 immediately after talking with Satan in 3:5, that she "saw". Not sure how else to interpret that she saw wasn't a result of the conversation. ...and she simultaneously disobeyed God. Your analysis fails because you are putting the cart before the horse, Ed. In your sequence of events Eve experienced good in her conversation with Satan, she acted and then she was downloaded with morality. Correct? So, she was without any means of knowing the difference between good or evil before she received her download. Yes? This is exactly what you are saying, right? If that's so, then how could she know that she was experiencing good with Satan before her moral download? By the logic of your sequence of events, she couldn't. Yes, the bible says that she saw that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, good for food and able to give her wisdom. But at that moment she didn't have that wisdom - the wisdom to know the difference between good and evil. That only came after she ate. That was when the download happened. Look at what the bible says. 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. The eyes of both Adam and Eve were opened only after they ate. That was the moment of download. Not when she spoke to Satan. Not when she saw the tree was good for food. Not when she saw that it was pleasing to the eye. Not when she saw that it was desirable for gaining wisdom. Not at any of those times. Only after eating it. You are putting the moment of her moral download BEFORE she ate. But the bible clearly says that it was AFTER. I'm sorry Ed, but that's wring because it doesn't follow what the bible says. Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Your analysis fails because you are putting the cart before the horse, Ed. In your sequence of events Eve experienced good in her conversation with Satan, she acted and then she was downloaded with morality. Correct? So, she was without any means of knowing the difference between good or evil before she received her download. Yes? This is exactly what you are saying, right? If that's so, then how could she know that she was experiencing good with Satan before her moral download? By the logic of your sequence of events, she couldn't. Yes, the bible says that she saw that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, good for food and able to give her wisdom. But at that moment she didn't have that wisdom - the wisdom to know the difference between good and evil. That only came after she ate. That was when the download happened. Look at what the bible says. 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. The eyes of both Adam and Eve were opened only after they ate. That was the moment of download. Not when she spoke to Satan. Not when she saw the tree was good for food. Not when she saw that it was pleasing to the eye. Not when she saw that it was desirable for gaining wisdom. Not at any of those times. Only after eating it. You are putting the moment of her moral download BEFORE she ate. But the bible clearly says that it was AFTER. I'm sorry Ed, but that's wring because it doesn't follow what the bible says. Thank you, Walter. No sir, I didn't say that. I said, as you and John suggested, that they were empty, void of the knowledge...prior to eating. How else do you want to read/interpret that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 50 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: As I said, it didn't say the Holy Spirit overshadowed Eve or gives us a notion that she was hardened by some experience in the Garden but acted as a result of her association with Satan. You are right in saying that there is nothing in the Genesis narrative there is nothing about god overriding Eve's free will to make her disobey god. But surely, as a Devil's Advocate, I'm allowed to do as all bible-believing Christians do and look to other parts of the bible to illuminate certain passages? If you disallow this then you'll also have to disallow the many times in the NT that the apostles use OT scripture to illuminate the meaning of events in NT times. The verse in the NT where it says that god bent Eve's will and made her disobey him is Romans 11 : 32. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Everyone means everyone, including Eve. Nor does the verse have to specifically name the people who god bound over to disobedience. We know that King Saul disobeyed god by persecuting David. We know that many of the Israelites in the desert were disobedient to Moses and to god. We know that Ananias and Sapphira disobeyed the god and the apostle Peter. All of the names of the disobedient don't have to be listed because they are all included in that one, catch-all word, everyone. So, if god has caused everyone to disobey him then he also caused Eve to disobey him. It's that simple. Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 29 Super Moderator Share Posted June 29 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I said, as you and John suggested, that they were empty, void of the knowledge...prior to eating. I said nothing of the sort. What I said was, based on the fact that she could lie, feel pride, and have sinful desires before she ate, she was therefore created sinful, but without the ability to understand or differentiate good and evil. Quite a different thing from being empty and void of knowledge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No sir, I didn't say that. I said, as you and John suggested, that they were empty, void of the knowledge...prior to eating. How else do you want to read/interpret that? If they were both empty, void of the knowledge of good and evil, then how did Eve do as you say? Here are your words. Hence my conclusion that Eve took away good, pleasing, and desirable away from the conversation with Satan and acted. Eve could not have taken away good because she was empty and void of any knowledge of what good was. Only after she ate, when it was too late, was her void filled by the knowledge of what good was. Do you see that now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I said nothing of the sort. What I said was, based on the fact that she could lie, feel pride, and have sinful desires before she ate, she was therefore created sinful, but without the ability to understand or differentiate good and evil. Quite a different thing from being empty and void of knowledge. So now you are saying she was created with bias? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: If they were both empty, void of the knowledge of good and evil, then how did Eve do as you say? Here are your words. Hence my conclusion that Eve took away good, pleasing, and desirable away from the conversation with Satan and acted. Eve could not have taken away good because she was empty and void of any knowledge of what good was. Only after she ate, when it was too late, was her void filled by the knowledge of what good was. Do you see that now? No Walter, go re-read....they had the verbal and experiential INPUT of God and Satan. That doesn't count as input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 Both of you essentially in response have said "God did it" in one way or another. She had free will, but it was taken in this instance, or she didn't ever. Doesn't really matter, I guess. That's right, Ed. If she didn't have free will or it was overridden, then it doesn't really matter. The result is the same in both cases. In both case it was not Eve who was choosing to disobey god. It was god choosing for her. Either by creating her without free will or by overriding the free will she did have. Which is why Eve didn't do it. God did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 Just now, walterpthefirst said: Both of you essentially in response have said "God did it" in one way or another. She had free will, but it was taken in this instance, or she didn't ever. Doesn't really matter, I guess. That's right, Ed. If she didn't have free will or it was overridden, then it doesn't really matter. The result is the same in both cases. In both case it was not Eve who was choosing to disobey god. It was god choosing for her. Either by creating her without free will or by overriding the free will she did have. Which is why Eve didn't do it. God did. That's your interpretation sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No Walter, go re-read....they had the verbal and experiential INPUT of God and Satan. That doesn't count as input? I know that. But you are saying that during her input time with Satan she saw 'good'. Hence my conclusion that Eve took away good, pleasing, and desirable away from the conversation with Satan and acted. But the bible says that she didn't know what good was until after she finished talking with him and ate. So you can't shift good backwards in time to before she ate. Her realization of what good and evil were only came after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: That's your interpretation sir. No. That's what the bible says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: That's your interpretation sir. Ok, please explain to me how Eve was responsible for her actions if she was made without free will? Or please explain to me how Eve was responsible for her actions if god overrode her free will? I'll listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 Or you could do it your own way, Ed. Please explain to me how Eve was responsible for her actions if she was void and empty, as you say she was? I'll listen to your explanations for any and all of those three questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: I know that. But you are saying that during her input time with Satan she saw 'good'. Hence my conclusion that Eve took away good, pleasing, and desirable away from the conversation with Satan and acted. But the bible says that she didn't know what good was until after she finished talking with him and ate. So you can't shift good backwards in time to before she ate. Her realization of what good and evil were only came after. No, her understanding of good.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No, her understanding of good.... How could she understand what good was before she ate and downloaded the knowledge of what good was? You said that she void and empty of that knowledge during her time talking to Satan. Can you please explain how Eve understood before she ate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Ok, please explain to me how Eve was responsible for her actions if she was made without free will? Or please explain to me how Eve was responsible for her actions if god overrode her free will? I'll listen. Good question. I think even the NT calls it a mystery. I don't have an answer for that at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 29 Super Moderator Share Posted June 29 20 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: So now you are saying she was created with bias? No. I am saying she was created with certain software already installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: How could she understand what good was before she ate and downloaded the knowledge of what good was? You said that she void and empty of that knowledge during her time talking to Satan. Can you please explain how Eve understood before she ate? If they were interacting with God, then that by default would have been "good". Her input previous to the encounter with Satan was "good" and that's all she knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said: No. I am saying she was created with certain software already installed. Right, biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 29 Share Posted June 29 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No. I am saying she was created with certain software already installed. Bible doesn't even say what you are speculating...actually says the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 29 Super Moderator Share Posted June 29 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Right, biased. No. Not biased. Preprogrammed. She could not have been biased toward "sin" if "sin" didn't exist until after she ate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 29 Author Share Posted June 29 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Good question. I think even the NT calls it a mystery. I don't have an answer for that at the moment. No, the NT says that it was god who was responsible creating Eve and for overriding her free will. Here it is again. Romans 11 :32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. God is responsible for binding everyone's will to make them disobedient to him. Eve was not a special case - she is part of 'everyone'. Therefore, since Eve was not responsible for actions, god is, because he made her do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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