Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 15 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: I've already told you. I've already told you. I've already told you. She didn't choose. She didn't choose. She didn't choose. God made her do it. God made her do it. God made her do it. Ok, how? I missed that part apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Ok, how? I missed that part apparently. The bible doesn't give us the exact mechanism god used. But Romans 11 : 32 tells us what he did to Eve and everyone else. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. That's why she didn't choose to disobey god in Eden. He violated her free will and made her disobey him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 Round, like a circle in a spiral... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: but you say Adam and Eve were not created with a bias....or have remained noncommittal on the subject. No, I have not made that claim. 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Again, you both have perpetually claimed that A&E were so innocent I have claimed the exact opposite. 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: you can't define the interference. Walt and I have both defined the interference. Honestly, Ed. Did you get your reading comprehension skills off the clearance rack at Wal-Mart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Just say it and quit dodging. "God created us without free will and incapable of righteousness I've spent about the last 5 pages saying exactly this. Only I can, and have, offered "proof" pulled straight from scripture. Pay attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No, I have not made that claim. I have claimed the exact opposite. Walt and I have both defined the interference. Honestly, Ed. Did you get your reading comprehension skills off the clearance rack at Wal-Mart? I know J....."god did it". Thx for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said: I've spent about the last 5 pages saying exactly this. Only I can, and have, offered "proof" pulled straight from scripture. Pay attention. No you haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No, I have not made that claim. Right, you remained miraculously quiet on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 28 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: The bible doesn't give us the exact mechanism god used. But Romans 11 : 32 tells us what he did to Eve and everyone else. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. That's why she didn't choose to disobey god in Eden. He violated her free will and made her disobey him. So you're saying that Eve DID freely choose, chose Satan, but then God binds us after that? So Eve just randomly fucked us in a coin flip, or it really didn't matter anyhow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 12 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I've spent about the last 5 pages saying exactly this. Only I can, and have, offered "proof" pulled straight from scripture. Pay attention. 11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No you haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: So you're saying that Eve DID freely choose, chose Satan, but then God binds us after that? So Eve just randomly fucked us in a coin flip, or it really didn't matter anyhow... No, That's not what it says in Romans 11 : 32. Everyone's free will has been violated by god, causing everyone to disobey him, regardless of when they lived. In Eve's case this would cause her to disobey god's command not to eat from the forbidden tree. So she did not freely choose. I am not saying that. The bible is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 At some point fairly soon, possibly even today, I'll be asking the Prof to close this thread down. All the necessary points have been made, all the necessary bible passages have been quoted and all the necessary explanations have been given, several times over. Your failure to comprehend what the bible says and your refusal to accept what the bible says are not my fault and not my problem, Ed. One, that God violated Adam and Eve's free will and two, that God does this on purpose. How did Satan enter the garden? Why is the knowledge of [good and] evil there? And if God is alive even through periods of death and decay, how are His actions not equally valid despite the various time frames? Three of your four questions have been fully answered. If you want me to answer the last one I can do that here, in this thread. Or I can start a fresh one and have the Prof close this one. It's your call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 Lol, I'm thinking everyone in the free world would agree except a couple of heathens here and there, that humanity was bound as a consequence of Eve's actions, not as she chose Satan freely and then humanity was bound regardless. Where did y'all pick up this notion?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Lol, I'm thinking everyone in the free world would agree except a couple of heathens here and there, that humanity was bound as a consequence of Eve's actions, not as she chose Satan freely and then humanity was bound regardless. Where did y'all pick up this notion?? This has been explained to you already. But I'll try one more time. Everyone in the world was bound as a consequence of god binding Eve into disobedience. So, because she never exercised her free will in disobeying him she cannot be held responsible for what she did. The one who violated her free will is the one who is responsible. God did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 I'm logging off for a while and when I return I'll review how things stand in this thread. Please let me know if you want me to answer your last question here or in another thread, Edgarcito. If it seems to me that this thread is just stuck and going nowhere I'll ask the Prof to close it. So, if you haven't provided an answer by then Ed you'll have to start your own thread to get your question answered. Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 There ya go....just close the thread so there is no conversation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 Which is it????? She freely chose Satan.....or she freely disobeyed God.....or she was bound to disobey God through God's action that we can't define.... or, or, or... Y'all are terrible... However, I do appreciate your honestly and willingness to run through the permutations.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 21 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Which is it????? She freely chose Satan.....or she freely disobeyed God.....or she was bound to disobey God through God's action that we can't define.... or, or, or... Y'all are terrible... However, I do appreciate your honestly and willingness to run through the permutations.... I guess since Walt has logged off for a while, I'll have to explain, yet again, what we have spent the last 5 pages explaining. Do be a dear and pull the crayon out of your nostril so that the pressure against your brain that is preventing you from comprehending this is relieved. She was bound by god to disobey through god's action, which is defined in Romans 11:32. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 29 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I guess since Walt has logged off for a while, I'll have to explain, yet again, what we have spent the last 5 pages explaining. Do be a dear and pull the crayon out of your nostril so that the pressure against your brain that is preventing you from comprehending this is relieved. She was bound by god to disobey through god's action, which is defined in Romans 11:32. Well then per your argument, it's not a violation of her free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Well then per your argument, it's not a violation of her free will. Precisely. Because she never had free will to begin with. Which is exactly what I have been saying all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 28 Share Posted June 28 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Precisely. Because she never had free will to begin with. Which is exactly what I have been saying all along. Just gonna have to disagree on this one J. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Just gonna have to disagree on this one J. Carry on. I'm going to refer you back to the very first response I gave you during this particular exchange. "Walt has demonstrated that we do not have free will using scripture in this very thread; and I have demonstrated it using logic in the thread linked below. You're welcome to continue claiming that we do; but unless you can refute either of our arguments, or present a compelling argument of your own, then all you're really doing is trying to pretend the reality you really really really wish was true instead of accepting the reality that actually is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 28 Author Share Posted June 28 Hmmm... I can see how Edgarcito might be getting confused and some of that might be down to a slight difference of approach between the Prof and me. I'll try and clarify. If I read things correctly, the line the Prof is holding to is that Eve had no free will at all and so god did not violate her free will by programming her to disobey him. (Please correct me if I've got that wrong, Prof.) Whereas I take a slightly different line. I propose that Eve was created by god with some measure of free will that she could use in unimportant choices. Which tree to prune next? This one or that one? Shall I carry on helping Adam here or shall I go and work over there? Stuff like that. Unimportant choices upon which nothing major depended. But when it came to the only choice that really mattered in Eden - to obey or disobey god's command not to eat from the forbidden tree - there she had no free will. This is because Romans 11 : 32 tells us that god wanted everyone to become guilty of disobedience and so he used Eve to carry this out, binding and violating her free will ONLY in this specific instance. ONLY in relation to his command, so that she (and everyone else) would become guilty of disobeying it. Of course, it doesn't really if the Prof is right or if I'm right. In both cases Eve did not chose. In the Prof's scenario she didn't choose because she was just a robot. In my scenario she did not choose because god violated her free will when it came to choosing to obey his command or disobey it. Either way, Eve did not choose. And this is where it gets really nasty. God blamed, punished and cursed her, even though she did not choose to disobey him. In the Prof's scenario god made her disobey because he gave her no free will at all. In my scenario god made her disobey by denying her the ability to freely choose to obey his command about the forbidden tree. In all other choices she had free will. But where it mattered, she had none. Therefore, in both scenarios no blame can be laid at Eve's door. Why? Because a person who cannot choose cannot be blamed for a choice they didn't make. In both scenarios she didn't make a choice. So, either way she is blameless. In both scenarios god is the one who is responsible and to blame for making her do what he wanted. That should clear up any problems arising from the slight difference in approach between the Prof and me. Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 28 Super Moderator Share Posted June 28 1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said: Whereas I take a slightly different line. I propose that Eve was created by god with some measure of free will that she could use in unimportant choices. Which tree to prune next? This one or that one? Shall I carry on helping Adam here or shall I go and work over there? Stuff like that. Unimportant choices upon which nothing major depended. Personally, I'd like to see how Ed can possibly explain Adam and Eve having free will if, by his own analogy, they were just hardware with no software downloaded. It's like expecting a blank hard drive to suddenly start running Microsoft Office. But, as yet, he can only make claims with no scriptural, logical, or even reasonable support for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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