walterpthefirst Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 Hey Edgarcito! I've already posted a list of eighteen bible versions that say that god creates disasters and calamities. But the King James Version of Isaiah 45 : 7 says this. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. So, is that your version of choice... the one where god creates evil? Thank you, Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casualfanboy16 Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: But the King James Version of Isaiah 45 : 7 says this. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. So, is that your version of choice... the one where god creates evil? I know this is directed at Edgarcito, but don't some versions use words like "calamity" and such? How much of a difference does it really make though? I know God is the judge, jury, and executioner but like what's just about causing calamity? I guess in God's eyes it's just because we're the siNFuL ones, but whatever. He's not very squeaky clean himself for such a perfect being lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 9 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said: I know this is directed at Edgarcito, but don't some versions use words like "calamity" and such? Yes, that's true Casualfanboy16. However, if you follow this link isa45.pdf (scripture4all.org) and scroll down to verse 7 you'll see that in the original Hebrew that the Old Testament was written, it says that god creates evil. one-forming light and·one-creating darkness one-making well-being and·one-creating evil I Yahweh one-making all-of these However, many bibles replace evil with calamity or disaster because the Christians publishing them realize the problem of having god as the creator and originator of evil. Like Edgarcito they cannot accept that god would do this and so they change the wording. By doing this the fault, blame and responsibility for all the evil in the world is transferred back to Satan and also on to us. In the context of this thread the blame is transferred on to Adam and Eve. This is a much more acceptable scenario to the Christians than the alternative - god entrapping Adam and Eve, screwing up their free will, blaming them for what he was responsible for and laying his curses on them. But as the Prof and I have shown through quoting the bible and through logic, the buck stops with god. A sure sign that Edgarcito knows all this is his unwillingness to answer any question that might put the blame on god. That and his persistent attempts to blame anyone else but god for the presence of evil in the world, despite what the bible itself says. So in this thread we can see the curious sight of a Christian who is scared of what the bible says and will do anything rather than face up to the truth of it. 9 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said: How much of a difference does it really make though? I know God is the judge, jury, and executioner but like what's just about causing calamity? I guess in God's eyes it's just because we're the siNFuL ones, but whatever. He's not very squeaky clean himself for such a perfect being lol. It makes all the difference. As I explained above, the bible itself points the finger at god as the creator of all evil in the world. Not just natural disasters and calamities like earthquakes and floods, but also such things as disease, decrepitude and death. So all of the pain and misery of these things are down to god. I would disagree strongly with your description of god being 'not very squeaky clean'. Instead I would say that he is more evil than any human or Satan could ever be. A narcissistic monster intent on puffing himself up with glory, happy to condemn billions to hellfire so that he can bask in the adulation of those who want to bow and scape at his feet. Thank you, Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casualfanboy16 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 6 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: I would disagree strongly with your description of god being 'not very squeaky clean'. Instead I would say that he is more evil than any human or Satan could ever be. A narcissistic monster intent on puffing himself up with glory, happy to condemn billions to hellfire so that he can bask in the adulation of those who want to bow and scape at his feet. Thank you, Walter. Edit: It was tongue in cheek like @Weezer said below me 6 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: A sure sign that Edgarcito knows all this is his unwillingness to answer any question that might put the blame on god. That and his persistent attempts to blame anyone else but god for the presence of evil in the world, despite what the bible itself says. So in this thread we can see the curious sight of a Christian who is scared of what the bible says and will do anything rather than face up to the truth of it. Haven't seen that before (lol)! But really though, @Edgarcito. I'm not trying to instigate, just curious. Why do you so persistently try to defend this religion's god when it's very own book shows you that God himself is the cause of all the crap in this world? I mean why continue following it despite all the contradictions and such? Forgive me if that's personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 16 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said: He's not very squeaky clean himself for such a perfect being lol. 6 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: I would disagree strongly with your description of god being 'not very squeaky clean'. I took Casuals statement as obvious understatement. "Tongue in cheek". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casualfanboy16 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 7 minutes ago, Weezer said: I took Casuals statement as obvious understatement. "Tongue in cheek". Yes! It was that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 18 Author Share Posted July 18 Just found this Dan McLellan video, which seems very relevant to what's been discussed recently in this thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casualfanboy16 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 33 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Just found this Dan McLellan video, which seems very relevant to what's been discussed recently in this thread. Very informative! Thanks for this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 19 Author Share Posted July 19 9 hours ago, Casualfanboy16 said: Very informative! Thanks for this! No problem, Casualfanboy16. Just for the sake of clarity and full declaration I'd better explain where I stand regarding McLellan's analysis. Personally and privately I agree with his position on the scriptures. That they owe a lot to Sumerian, Zoroastrian and Greco-Roman influences. And other influences too. Rather than being one integrated and seamless narrative telling just one story, from Genesis to Revelation, the bible is a mishmash of creation myths, tribal tales, histories written by the victors, propaganda and philosophical speculations, drawn from various sources at various times. No wonder it contradicts itself so much! However... In this thread I am playing Devil's Advocate and taking up the role of an authentic Christian believer. I therefore treat the bible as one integrated and seamless narrative, given to men by god and telling just one overarching story. Just as the Stetson-wearing guy in the video seems to do. I therefore disregard what McLellan says about the many and diverse influences that went into the making of the bible. But what I do take note of is what he says about Isaiah 45 : 7. He responds to the cowboy Christian's assertion that god didn't create evil but Satan did. From 2: 45 onwards in the video. Here's what McLellan says about the matter. "This passage has been interpreted by many scholars as pushing back against that [Zoroastrian] dualism and saying 'No, evil comes from god' and that is a position we find elsewhere in the Hebrew bible." The take home message here is that Yahweh, the god of the Jews, is the true source of all evil. This isn't something introduced into the bible by an outside influence. This is the Jews themselves saying that their god created evil. So, playing the role of bible-believing Christian, I reject the non-Hebrew dualism in favour of the Monotheistic Hebrew belief that god himself created evil. Thank you, Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 19 Author Share Posted July 19 Genesis 3 : 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. John 1 : 1 - 5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. On the basis of just these two bible passages Christians should be able to work out and understand that evil has always existed in the mind of god and that in making all things god therefore made evil. To say that Satan created evil because it did not exist before he thought about rebelling against god, is to contradict Genesis 3 : 22, where god clearly declares that he knows good and evil. The bible tells us that god is eternal, unchanging and all-knowing. Therefore, god's knowledge of evil must also be eternal and complete. God knows every possible evil thought, feeling, word and deed that any angel or human can think, feel, speak or do - and has always done so. If this were not so then god would not be all-knowing. There would be a gap in his all-knowledge and if he did not know evil then his statement in Genesis 3 : 22 would be a lie about himself. Any lie from god's own lips would create another contradiction. With Hebrews 6 : 18, where we are told it is impossible for god to lie. So, to satisfy the requirement that god does not lie, to satisfy the requirement that god knows all things, and to satisfy the twin requirements that god is eternal and unchanging, the bible itself forces us to accept that god must have always had full and complete knowledge of all evil. To say that Satan created evil and god didn't doesn't only contradict the bible, that's also heresy. It amounts to saying that Satan is just as much a creator as god, bringing into existence something that wasn't created by god. Scripture tells us that Satan was an angel - a created being and not eternal like god. It also says that there is but one creator - god. When we combine John 1 : 3 with god's declaration that he knows evil we can see how this must work. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. If god did not know evil then it could not have been created and so Satan, his rebel angels, Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity could never have become evil. God's creations can only become what is in his mind. If that were otherwise then created beings like angels and humans could bring things into existence which were never in god's mind. Meaning that they would be just as much creators as god is. Clearly a nonsense and an unbiblical one too. God has always, eternally known all evil and he created it too. Just as the bible informs us. Therefore the belief that evil originated from and with Satan is unbiblical, false and unchristian. The Christian desire to excuse god from all blame is misguided because first and foremost a Christian should be guided, not by their feelings, but by the contents of the bible. If what they feel contradicts scripture then they must bring their feelings into line with god's Word. Open refusal to do so is just as much an act of rebellion against god as Satan's desire to be greater than god. In both cases the rebels refuse to submit to god's will and selfishly put their own agendas first. Thank you, Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 On 7/19/2024 at 4:22 PM, walterpthefirst said: The Christian desire to excuse god from all blame is misguided because first and foremost a Christian should be guided, not by their feelings, but by the contents of the bible. If what they feel contradicts scripture then they must bring their feelings into line with god's Word. Open refusal to do so is just as much an act of rebellion against god as Satan's desire to be greater than god. In both cases the rebels refuse to submit to god's will and selfishly put their own agendas first. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength...that's the greatest commandment, and yes it does come from the bible, but no, the greatest commandment is not to be led your bible, it is to use feelings and love God. I think the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit outrank the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 4 hours ago, midniterider said: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength...that's the greatest commandment, and yes it does come from the bible, but no, the greatest commandment is not to be led your bible, it is to use feelings and love God. I think the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit outrank the bible. Hi midniterider! In this thread I've put my scepticism aside and played the role of Devil's Advocate, taking the position of a Bible-believing Christian and treating the bible as a fully integrated whole. With no need to add to it or to subtract from it. From what you write I gather that you don't share this view of scripture? That, guided by your feelings, you think its ok to pick and chose which parts of scripture that you like? And disregard the rest? As well as adding your own thoughts to it? Please note that I'm not seeking to be combative here. This is just what I gather from your post. If I've misunderstood please correct me and explain further. Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Hi midniterider! In this thread I've put my scepticism aside and played the role of Devil's Advocate, taking the position of a Bible-believing Christian and treating the bible as a fully integrated whole. With no need to add to it or to subtract from it. From what you write I gather that you don't share this view of scripture? That, guided by your feelings, you think its ok to pick and chose which parts of scripture that you like? And disregard the rest? As well as adding your own thoughts to it? Please note that I'm not seeking to be combative here. This is just what I gather from your post. If I've misunderstood please correct me and explain further. Thank you, Walter. Yes, that's how my Christian peers, and subsequently I, operated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 2 hours ago, midniterider said: Yes, that's how my Christian peers, and subsequently I, operated. So you took you cue from the what other Christians did and did that yourself? For many, many centuries in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East, Christians persecuted the Jews in their communities as Christ killers. Stoning them, confiscating their property, destroying their homes and their synagogues. In Russia this was a 'pogrom' and Russian Christians took their cue from their Christian peers, doing what the others did and joining in with the anti Semitic violence. More recently during the Apartheid years of South Africa the church used a passage from Genesis 9 to justify the persecution of the black and coloured peoples of that nation, claiming that they were descended from Ham, who was cursed by Noah to be a slave to his brothers, Shem and Japheth. And white South African Christians took their cue to persecute the blacks from their Christian peers. That's not much of a reason is it, midniterider? "I'm doing this because others are doing it." Can't you give a reason why you did this, from your own thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 I see that you looked in here, rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: So you took you cue from the what other Christians did and did that yourself? For many, many centuries in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East, Christians persecuted the Jews in their communities as Christ killers. Stoning them, confiscating their property, destroying their homes and their synagogues. In Russia this was a 'pogrom' and Russian Christians took their cue from their Christian peers, doing what the others did and joining in with the anti Semitic violence. More recently during the Apartheid years of South Africa the church used a passage from Genesis 9 to justify the persecution of the black and coloured peoples of that nation, claiming that they were descended from Ham, who was cursed by Noah to be a slave to his brothers, Shem and Japheth. And white South African Christians took their cue to persecute the blacks from their Christian peers. That's not much of a reason is it, midniterider? "I'm doing this because others are doing it." Can't you give a reason why you did this, from your own thinking? No, the true reason for the atrocities you have mentioned is prejudice, hate, and discrimination, hiding behind Christianity and the bible. I think hate would still exist though, even without the religion facade. Is religion the root cause of the hate? I dont think so. Edit: Religion is not the root cause of the atrocities, hate is the cause , but the sense of community religion provides is like an incubator for hate. Dillahunty will often point to anti-LGBTQ legislation or anti-abortion legislation as the reason why religion is bad and everyone should be an atheist. But pagans tend to be members of the LGBTQ community and vote liberal. There are good behaviors and bad behaviors. A person has to kind of use their brain to sift the good from the bad. I was a Christian once but didnt feel the need to vote against gay rights nor protest at an abortion clinic. Please elaborate on your question. I dont understand the 'this' part of 'why you did this'. If you mean, why I worshiped God? It felt good to do so. They wanted me to speak in tongues , which I thought was silly, so I never did. I didnt much like tithing either and pitched a bitch about it. Lol. Sometimes doing something because others are doing it is good. Like watching a parade. Or sitting in the stands watching a baseball game. This reminds me, I need to post something about the benefits of prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 9 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: I see that you looked in here, rider. You spy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 I edited my comment above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 21 minutes ago, midniterider said: Please elaborate on your question. I dont understand the 'this' part of 'why you did this'. This is 'this'. "Yes, that's how my Christian peers, and subsequently I, operated." Which was an answer to my earlier queries. From what you write I gather that you don't share this view of scripture? That, guided by your feelings, you think its ok to pick and chose which parts of scripture that you like? And disregard the rest? As well as adding your own thoughts to it? You appeared to agree, by writing 'Yes' that because your Christian peers picked and chose what parts of scripture they liked, disregarded the rest and added their own thoughts to it, you did the same things. Which was why I then asked you... Can't you give a reason why you did this, from your own thinking? As of now, from what you've written so far, all I can glean is that you did these things because your Christian peers did so. Therefore I'm still curious as to why you did these things, from your own thinking. If you did use your brain to sift their actions then surely you'd be able to articulate that thinking. So, could you please enlighten me? Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: This is 'this'. "Yes, that's how my Christian peers, and subsequently I, operated." Which was an answer to my earlier queries. From what you write I gather that you don't share this view of scripture? That, guided by your feelings, you think its ok to pick and chose which parts of scripture that you like? And disregard the rest? As well as adding your own thoughts to it? You appeared to agree, by writing 'Yes' that because your Christian peers picked and chose what parts of scripture they liked, disregarded the rest and added their own thoughts to it, you did the same things. Which was why I then asked you... Can't you give a reason why you did this, from your own thinking? As of now, from what you've written so far, all I can glean is that you did these things because your Christian peers did so. Therefore I'm still curious as to why you did these things, from your own thinking. If you did use your brain to sift their actions then surely you'd be able to articulate that thinking. So, could you please enlighten me? Thank you, Walter. I think someone can be a Christian without being a scripture lawyer or legalist. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. I think someone can be a Christian without reading the bible at all, really. They could just use the emotional component and skip the 'word.' I started into Christianity at age 30 , after being a free thinking agnostic, so Christian obedience and fear of God wasn't really strong in me. I was still fascinated in many New Age things and Zen while still a Christian. Why did I become a Christian? I think my marriage was going to shit and I thought becoming a Christian might help it. It did for a while.... But I'm back to agnostic now...a little pagan, a little Zen. I don't know if this answers your questions. If it doesnt, all I can say is we think differently. I didnt deconvert because of logic, evidence or reason. It was just some of the thought policing in the bible was cramping my style. Did you as a Christian follow every jot and tittle of bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 8 hours ago, midniterider said: I think someone can be a Christian without being a scripture lawyer or legalist. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life. I think someone can be a Christian without reading the bible at all, really. They could just use the emotional component and skip the 'word.' I started into Christianity at age 30 , after being a free thinking agnostic, so Christian obedience and fear of God wasn't really strong in me. I was still fascinated in many New Age things and Zen while still a Christian. Why did I become a Christian? I think my marriage was going to shit and I thought becoming a Christian might help it. It did for a while.... But I'm back to agnostic now...a little pagan, a little Zen. I don't know if this answers your questions. If it doesnt, all I can say is we think differently. I didnt deconvert because of logic, evidence or reason. It was just some of the thought policing in the bible was cramping my style. Did you as a Christian follow every jot and tittle of bible? Thank you, midniterider. But I still don't understand. You are now an agnostic and no longer a Christian. So why do anything that the Christians do, let alone pick and chose from the bible because that's what they do? If you have no knowledge (a-gnosis) of the god of the bible, why copy the behaviour of those who believe they do? Why tell me that the letter kills but the spirit gives life when you have no knowledge of the holy spirit? Surely, for you, the bible and everything in it is a busted flush? I'm puzzled. Can you help me out, please? Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 8 hours ago, midniterider said: If it doesnt, all I can say is we think differently. I didnt deconvert because of logic, evidence or reason. It was just some of the thought policing in the bible was cramping my style. Did you as a Christian follow every jot and tittle of bible? Yes, we clearly think differently. As a Christian I believed that every word of the bible was god's Word. Therefore, if I chose one verse or one passage over another, I was passing judgment on god - something that I was clearly unfit and unworthy to do. The watchwords of my years as a Christian were humility and submission. So, if there was something in the bible that I didn't like or couldn't understand then that was my fault and my responsibility, not god's. And I would pray to him to increase my understanding and to decrease my wilful stubbornness. No, I didn't try to follow every jot and tittle of scripture. I realised that my personal limitations wouldn't let me do that. So instead I just tried to do my best 'today' and hoped to do better tomorrow. You're familiar with the idea of the Word of god being a two-edged sword, cutting both ways, midniterider? Well, what would have happened to me if I had wielded a metaphorical pair of scissors and cherry picked the parts of the bible I liked and disregarded the rest? The answer is that God's Word would have cut me. By this I mean that every time I chose my own way over god's I would have been cutting out the spiritual riches that were there in scripture, for my benefit. I would have been like like a sick person who's been told to take his meds five times a day, but who chooses to take them only once. I'd have been hurting myself instead of receiving the healing that I needed. Does that help explain things? Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Thank you, midniterider. But I still don't understand. You are now an agnostic and no longer a Christian. So why do anything that the Christians do, let alone pick and chose from the bible because that's what they do? If you have no knowledge (a-gnosis) of the god of the bible, why copy the behaviour of those who believe they do? Why tell me that the letter kills but the spirit gives life when you have no knowledge of the holy spirit? Surely, for you, the bible and everything in it is a busted flush? I'm puzzled. Can you help me out, please? Thank you, Walter. I think I see the problem. In the 1990s I became a Christian. That's when I emulated other Christians. Then in 2020 I gave it up. I quit the faith. I don't hang out with or think/believe/feel the way Christians do anymore. I meant to say that back in the 90s when I was a believer, the Christians I learned from didn't care that much about literally following the Bible's exact words. I am not a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 34 minutes ago, midniterider said: I think I see the problem. In the 1990s I became a Christian. That's when I emulated other Christians. Then in 2020 I gave it up. I quit the faith. I don't hang out with or think/believe/feel the way Christians do anymore. I meant to say that back in the 90s when I was a believer, the Christians I learned from didn't care that much about literally following the Bible's exact words. I am not a Christian. Ah, now I get it. Thanks very much for clearing that up, midniterider. Everything falls into place and I'm no longer puzzled. Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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