Objective morals?

[Wertbag]

Did any of you have the belief that there were objective morals given by God?  The moral argument seems popular, but it's one that never made sense to me.  Is the objective moral code God?  So, prayer is meant to be used to come to the right conclusion?  Or is the bible the moral code?  But apparently not the OT as that is "old covenant", so the entire objective moral standard has to come from Jesus and I guess the golden rule?

Basically, if you did hold this view at some point, where were we mean to get these objective morals from?  

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I'm not sure that I ever got that concept from the Bible. It seemed more like the basics of morality were covered of don't murder, don't steal, don't lie in court, take care of immigrants and be hospitable, and those gave the impression that these moral concepts originated from above rather than being common in many cultures already. Jesus echoed caring for the poor, but mostly seemed to be calling Jews back to loving God and trusting in his provision despite the land being occupied by Rome. Mostly I think my sense of morality came from the culture.

 

When I read the ooga-booga words attributed to Jesus about lust and how God will punish with fire and worms, that made it clear that I was going to have a seriously messed up view of the natural sex drive. Combine that with a fear of demons, that led to some awful years of self loathing, which is what the church wants so they can sell the false hope of change (being born-again). 

 

But the Bible sort of left out things we consider moral today, like don't have slaves because it's wrong to treat people that way, don't commit genocide, don't treat women like property, don't mass rape young girls after slaughtering their people group, don't mass rape other tribes in Israel just because your tribe doesn't have enough females, oh and God... how about not setting up humans in the garden by creating a tree there that you didn't want them to eat from, and how about not killing everyone because you regretted making them, how about Job being an example of how sinister and cruel God is. But the gods in many cultures were given a pass on moral behavior because people needed a way to explain random disasters and hardships despite being devoted worshipers of whichever god. The old "their ways are higher than our ways, and their thoughts higher than our thoughts". 

 

[Prycejosh]

15 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Did any of you have the belief that there were objective morals given by God?  The moral argument seems popular, but it's one that never made sense to me.  Is the objective moral code God?  So, prayer is meant to be used to come to the right conclusion?  Or is the bible the moral code?  But apparently not the OT as that is "old covenant", so the entire objective moral standard has to come from Jesus and I guess the golden rule?

Basically, if you did hold this view at some point, where were we mean to get these objective morals from?  

Prayer is a vehicle of communication. It comes from personal understanding of what He want from God and what He expects from us as followers. The moral of society and nations originally came from God. We have something called a conscience. It is a spiritual thing within us that lets us known right from wrong. Animals do not have this privilege. 

[Astreja]

On 5/14/2024 at 7:54 PM, Prycejosh said:

Prayer is a vehicle of communication. It comes from personal understanding of what He want from God and what He expects from us as followers.

 

So, communication of your god's subjective ideas on morality, then?  

 

The problem with claiming that the god of the Bible is a source for objective morality is that it opens the floodgates - Literally.  If it's okay for a deity to drown everyone, then it must be okay for mortals to do it too.  If it's okay for a deity to kill the firstborn children of an entire nation, then it must be okay for mortals to do it too.

 

The whole thing makes a mockery of the concept of morality, and renders it nonfunctional in the real world.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 5/14/2024 at 7:54 PM, Prycejosh said:

 

The moral of society and nations originally came from God. 

 

Which God are you talking about?

[Wertbag]

On 5/15/2024 at 12:54 PM, Prycejosh said:

Animals do not have this privilege

Some animals do.  Dogs and cats can be taught right and wrong, with the ability to show guilt.  Primates can tell what is fair and punish behaviors that do not align with that tribes, this can be seen as teaching morals.  We do it to a more complex degree, but the idea of right and wrong does exist in the animal kingdom.

[walterpthefirst]

On 5/15/2024 at 1:54 AM, Prycejosh said:

Prayer is a vehicle of communication. It comes from personal understanding of what He want from God and what He expects from us as followers. The moral of society and nations originally came from God. We have something called a conscience. It is a spiritual thing within us that lets us known right from wrong. Animals do not have this privilege. 

 

Is slavery moral?

 

What does your conscience tell you about the morality of slavery?

 

Does your conscience tell you that slavery is morally wrong?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

I see you're in Birmingham, Prycejosh.

 

I live in the Midlands too, have friends there, visit it quite often and am troubled by the ongoing financial problems of the city council.

 

So, as one Brit to another, will you please respond to me?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.