Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Fuck yeah Outsider! Polytheism is so fucking cool! Aside from Elder scrolls lore, I think that the Greek gods were pretty amazing. Norse and Egyptian gods weren't near as fascinating as the Greeks. My faves are Silenus and Dyonisus. They are your drinking buddies, not your judge or tormentors. Silenus is great because he's just a fat, jolly, god of beer and wine. Awesome stuff. They sound pretty cool, but, Valhalla would be a pretty kick ass afterlife, literally. Compared to the christian heaven at the very least. Though I must admit I'm not well versed in Greek/Roman, Norse, or Egyptian mythology, I should probably remedy that at some point. Absolutely! Why would you wanna just grovel as a slave before an angry God for all of eternity when you can feast with the gods and go on epic battles in the afterlife in Valhalla? It is a much more amazing afterlife than our Christian one. And in all honestly, I'm not so sure the christian heaven is all that much better than the Christian hell. I mean, the only two options are to A: Burn and suffer as a free man until you forget who you are, or B: Bow down and worship as a slave in "paradise" until you forget who you are. The both sound like the same damn thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I see it differently. Hell is a choice, a self-choice. In the end there are only two kinds of people. Those who say to God "Your will be done." And those to whom God will say, "Your will be done." What you're talking about is a sort of "You go your way and I'll go mine" type of god. I'd accept this answer if the bible didn't indicate otherwise. What I'm saying is that when Adam and Eve ate the fruit we can imagine that god actually did do something along the lines of what you're saying here. If they were going to do their own thing they could but just not in his garden. So they had to go to their own place. That's fine. He could do his thing in his garden and they could do their thing wherever. None of this was disclosed in the initial agreement but we'll overlook all that. But the curses are the problem. Without them god is taking your approach of people choosing to obey god or obey themselves. They could have simply started elsewhere without god in their lives. But with the curses god is taking a different approach. He ruins the land. He ruins their bodies. He does lots of damage on the way out. Damage that causes Adam and Eve a lot of troubles they wouldn't have had and couldn't have brought upon themselves. They couldn't have cursed the ground making food difficult to come by. They couldn't have caused pain in childbirth. These are problems god put onto them. And then he really doesn't go his own way. He hangs around and keeps making demands. So there's no true parting of the ways. Same with the whole hell concept. You can go your own way. As long as that way is right into hell. You can't go to another part of Earth. You can't go to another planet. You can't go to another galaxy. You can't go anywhere where you can do your own thing. You can go to hell. That's not really a "do your thing and I'll do mine" type of thing. That's a "I'll get you for that" approach. mwc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 The teacher says if you Dont take your education seriously you will not pass this test. Its your choice. The student whines and complains that the teacher is not given him a choice that he has to take school serious or he will fail for not answering the questions correctly on the test. The teacher says she cares and offered the student help but he refused. So the student failed. Failing the test was a consequence not a direct forced choice by the teacher who tried to help him Or If you jump off this cliff you will die Death is a consequence you have the decision to not jump you have the decision to be listen to the danger your friend has told you about jumping off the cliff. But you can complain and said you didn't have a choice and then jump and die and people can blame the friend for not giving him a choice when he did and even tried to help What is the flaw in these God and hell analogies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 The teacher says if you Dont take your education seriously you will not pass this test. Its your choice. The student whines and complains that the teacher is not given him a choice that he has to take school serious or he will fail for not answering the questions correctly on the test. The teacher says she cares and offered the student help but he refused. So the student failed. Failing the test was a consequence not a direct forced choice by the teacher who tried to help him Or If you jump off this cliff you will die Death is a consequence you have the decision to not jump you have the decision to be listen to the danger your friend has told you about jumping off the cliff. But you can complain and said you didn't have a choice and then jump and die and people can blame the friend for not giving him a choice when he did and even tried to help What is the flaw in these God and hell analogies? Well God doesn't tell us anything. Instead men come to us and say they speak for God. But there are thousands of men who claim to speak for God and they can't even agree on what God's name is or what God wants. So we are left wondering if any of them speak for a God who can't be bothered to speak for himself. Christians always love going to Bible scriptures but the Bible wasn't written by God either. It was written by more men who claimed they were speaking on God's behalf. And it turns out that there were many sacred scrolls and books written by men who claimed to speak on God's behalf. Why should any be right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 14, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted June 14, 2015 What is the flaw in these God and hell analogies? The flaw is that neither the teacher nor the friend in those analogies are assumed to be omniscient and omnipotent. The teacher and the friend cannot see the future and know the outcome even before the conditions are set and the choices made. The teacher and the friend did not create the hapless pawns who fail tests and jump off cliffs. There's a start for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 The teacher says if you Dont take your education seriously you will not pass this test. Its your choice. The student whines and complains that the teacher is not given him a choice that he has to take school serious or he will fail for not answering the questions correctly on the test. The teacher says she cares and offered the student help but he refused. So the student failed. Failing the test was a consequence not a direct forced choice by the teacher who tried to help him Or If you jump off this cliff you will die Death is a consequence you have the decision to not jump you have the decision to be listen to the danger your friend has told you about jumping off the cliff. But you can complain and said you didn't have a choice and then jump and die and people can blame the friend for not giving him a choice when he did and even tried to help What is the flaw in these God and hell analogies? Bullshit. Failing the test doesn't land you in the sadist teacher's torture dungeon for the rest of your never ending existence. Stepping off a cliff doesn't land you in your "friends" torture dungeon for the rest of your never ending existence. With god, the stick isn't death. It's being his torture toy for the rest of your never ending existence because you only did what this god made you to do. There is something seriously wrong with that paradigm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted June 14, 2015 Share Posted June 14, 2015 The teacher says if you Dont take your education seriously you will not pass this test. Its your choice. The student whines and complains that the teacher is not given him a choice that he has to take school serious or he will fail for not answering the questions correctly on the test. The teacher says she cares and offered the student help but he refused. So the student failed. Failing the test was a consequence not a direct forced choice by the teacher who tried to help him Or If you jump off this cliff you will die Death is a consequence you have the decision to not jump you have the decision to be listen to the danger your friend has told you about jumping off the cliff. But you can complain and said you didn't have a choice and then jump and die and people can blame the friend for not giving him a choice when he did and even tried to help What is the flaw in these God and hell analogies? The flaw is THIS, A1: The teacher says to the student, "I will give you a choice. You can do your homework, or you can choose not to. You have free will to choose whatever you want. But I must warn you, if you choose not to do your homework, I will put you in detention FOREVER! Once you are in detention, it will be too late to change your mind. You will be stuck in detention and your education will go no further. Your academic career will be essentially ruined and you will NEVER escape the reality of staying in detention day in and day out, never proceeding to the next grade. Just understand, its your choice and I want the best for you. But you need to make the right choice. Or else. In fact, you deserve detention. You're actually a terrible student. By doing your homework, you are saving yourself from a fate you deserve and are already headed toward anyway. For refusing this offer, you are choosing to go to detention, thereby putting yourself there." The flaw, A1, is that not only is this not really a "choice" but a compulsory and manipulative system set up by a sadist, but also the punishment for "choosing" wrong is overkill. The punishment is far too severe no matter how you slice it. The sins committed in one life time, no matter how bad they may be, are not deserving of unrelenting, unmerciful torture for ETERNITY. Do you understand, A1? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 In response to posts #15 and #20 concerning Pharaoh. There are six or seven verses in the text beginning in Exodus 1 through Ex.10 that states Pharaoh heartened his heart. In the end, God gave (commanded) him over to his own will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 In response to posts #15 and #20 concerning Pharaoh. There are six or seven verses in the text beginning in Exodus 1 through Ex.10 that states Pharaoh heartened his heart. In the end, God gave (commanded) him over to his own will. Your history of lying, quote mining, etc. on this site is extensive. No one believes what you say. Not surprisingly, here, you present yet another disingenuous quote mine and an ad-hoc apologetic. Elsewhere in the Bible, your sky fairy hardened Pharaoh's heart. You ignore that and expect others to do the same, with your cheap apologetic that the sky fairy "gave (commanded) [Pharaoh] over to his own will". That's not what the ignored text says. Not at all. Why do you continue with this infantile charade of yours? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 In response to posts #15 and #20 concerning Pharaoh. There are six or seven verses in the text beginning in Exodus 1 through Ex.10 that states Pharaoh heartened his heart. In the end, God gave (commanded) him over to his own will. Try to not be a liar. Try. Exodus 4:21 "And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." Who hardened Pharoh's heart? God did it. Why? So that Pharoh would say no and God could kill thousands of helpless, innocent people. The Bible makes God into a monster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 In response to posts #15 and #20 concerning Pharaoh. There are six or seven verses in the text beginning in Exodus 1 through Ex.10 that states Pharaoh heartened his heart. In the end, God gave (commanded) him over to his own will. Try to not be a liar. Try. Exodus 4:21 "And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." Who hardened Pharoh's heart? God did it. Why? So that Pharoh would say no and God could kill thousands of helpless, innocent people. The Bible makes God into a monster. Note how the Bible statements that God (will or did) harden(ed) Pharaoh's heart are in the future tense and note the use of the past tense: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel Exodus 14:8 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18 Source: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/hardened.html Certainly interesting. To claim Pharaoh did his own "hardening" before the sky fairy's "hardening" is kinda silly. The sky fairy knew he was going to do it before Pharaoh did. And here's the statements which claim Pharaoh hardened his own heart: But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6 Source: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/hardened.html Seems like Pharaoh had the power to harden others' hearts (see Exodus 9:34). Of course, the text could be construed to mean that the "he" in these verses was not Pharaoh, but the sky fairy himself. At least that way the fictional story would be consistent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Those who truly love Jesus love the truth? Oops! What does that say about you, Ironhorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 15, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted June 15, 2015 In response to posts #15 and #20 concerning Pharaoh. There are six or seven verses in the text beginning in Exodus 1 through Ex.10 that states Pharaoh heartened his heart. In the end, God gave (commanded) him over to his own will. Read what the verse clearly says, not Geisler's desperate apologetic obfuscation. He doesn't even make an argument, he simply says that the words, "God hardened his heart" don't really mean that God hardened his heart. IOW, that verse must be a lie. Really want to play it that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 In response to posts #15 and #20 concerning Pharaoh. There are six or seven verses in the text beginning in Exodus 1 through Ex.10 that states Pharaoh heartened his heart. In the end, God gave (commanded) him over to his own will. from...https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9%3A13-18&version=KJV Romans 9:13-18King James Version (KJV)13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. King James Version (KJV)by Public Domain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The teacher says if you Dont take your education seriously you will not pass this test. Its your choice. The student whines and complains that the teacher is not given him a choice that he has to take school serious or he will fail for not answering the questions correctly on the test. The teacher says she cares and offered the student help but he refused. So the student failed. Failing the test was a consequence not a direct forced choice by the teacher who tried to help him Can I simply believe that I will pass the test, answer no questions correctly, and still pass the test all the while someone who makes their best effort fails regardless of how many they answer correctly if they come close to a perfect score? If yes then Christianity. Or If you jump off this cliff you will die Death is a consequence you have the decision to not jump you have the decision to be listen to the danger your friend has told you about jumping off the cliff. But you can complain and said you didn't have a choice and then jump and die and people can blame the friend for not giving him a choice when he did and even tried to help What is the flaw in these God and hell analogies? If I jump of a cliff, live, and then have the person who told me I will die come along and kill me simply because they told me I would die then we're talking about the story of Genesis. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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