Justin Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Justin, I thought you were saying that all of sdelsolray's posts were a waste of time, and I suppose then by extension so were mine. Then came your apologetic (well, not your's, but what you posted), and I guess I misunderstood and jumped the gun. I didn't mean to cause you any ruffled feathers on what is really a good topic and thread. Duder No hard feelings. I sort of got the feeling that some of you all thought maybe i was a Christian in atheist's clothing, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 Justin, I thought you were saying that all of sdelsolray's posts were a waste of time, and I suppose then by extension so were mine. Then came your apologetic (well, not your's, but what you posted), and I guess I misunderstood and jumped the gun. I didn't mean to cause you any ruffled feathers on what is really a good topic and thread. Duder No hard feelings. I sort of got the feeling that some of you all thought maybe i was a Christian in atheist's clothing, lol. Nah, I didn't think that at all. I was just, as an Ex-Christian, being defensive over what the Bible says. How weird is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 Yeah i can understand that. But it was like i said a few posts up that human sacrifice was banned by the time Jephthah came around and maybe it was talking about a sacrifice for religious servitude. But there isn't much wiggle room for "burnt offering" is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 If I was God, then the very moment that Jephthah's daughter walked out of the house, the ground would have shook, lightning would have flashed in the sky, and my booming voice would have said, "Oh hell no! You're not sacrificing her as a burnt offering! I won't let you go through with it!" Then if he tried anyway, I'd make his daughter indestructible and give him rabbit ears. I always wonder as an agnostic (since I don't know if these events ever occurred or not), what would have happened if Jepthat had offered himself instead of his child? What if Abraham offered himself instead of Isaac (and, why didn't he)? Is that what the biblegod was really looking for? Was he "testing" them to see if they might offer their own selves instead of a loved one or an animal sacrifice? Was he looking to find someone who would refuse to give any innocent sacrifice other than their own self? If I was god that's what I would be looking for in a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 That's a very interesting question and idea. It also makes me more inclined to believe that humans create gods in their image. Thanks for giving me a new rhetorical viewpoint to mull over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, 40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileaditeur four days in a year. Its pretty clear from these two verses at the end of Chapter 11 that Jephthah offered his daughter to the Lord as a burnt offering. If he didn't, then why would the daughters of Israel lament his daughter four days every year? I can only wonder at the purpose of such a morbid story. Is this supposed to be a warning to be careful with vows? I have no idea. As a believer, when I read such stories, I just glossed over them without really thinking them through. Now when I read the OT I just see genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and a very fickle narcissistic god. Ravenstar and other history folks: isn't there evidence of rituals from the ancient Near East in which women would lament so-and-so? Ex: rituals of lamenting Adonis, beloved of the goddess of love. On the principle that well developed myths in texts often arise to explain ritual, rather than the other way round, I'm wondering whether there was already a ritual where young women would spend four days in lamentation, w/ some connection to their coming transition from the status of virgins to the status of wives, and later the Jephthah story arose as "aetiology," i.e. as given an account of the cause of the ritual. Or maybe another women's ritual like that - I'm not sure of the ages of the "daughters of Israel" who took part. Anyway, the whole of vv. 39-40 that you quoted, Fernweh, looks to me like a fascinating window into a pretextual stage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 That's quite true... lamentation was common. But I also think child sacrifice was as well. The story probably comes from much earlier oral tradition. It also says the Lord will help you in battle if you only give him your best, which mirrors the Cain and Abel story. He's got a thing for blood and burning, what can I say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miekko Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, 40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileaditeur four days in a year. Its pretty clear from these two verses at the end of Chapter 11 that Jephthah offered his daughter to the Lord as a burnt offering. If he didn't, then why would the daughters of Israel lament his daughter four days every year? I can only wonder at the purpose of such a morbid story. Is this supposed to be a warning to be careful with vows? I have no idea. As a believer, when I read such stories, I just glossed over them without really thinking them through. Now when I read the OT I just see genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and a very fickle narcissistic god. Ravenstar and other history folks: isn't there evidence of rituals from the ancient Near East in which women would lament so-and-so? Ex: rituals of lamenting Adonis, beloved of the goddess of love. On the principle that well developed myths in texts often arise to explain ritual, rather than the other way round, I'm wondering whether there was already a ritual where young women would spend four days in lamentation, w/ some connection to their coming transition from the status of virgins to the status of wives, and later the Jephthah story arose as "aetiology," i.e. as given an account of the cause of the ritual. Or maybe another women's ritual like that - I'm not sure of the ages of the "daughters of Israel" who took part. Anyway, the whole of vv. 39-40 that you quoted, Fernweh, looks to me like a fascinating window into a pretextual stage. This, in combination with an opportunity to make a point about being careful with vows seems like a very likely explanation for the story. Of course, we learn something about the views on human sacrifice that the writer of the story had: it is quite clear the human sacrifice is a morbid conclusion to a careless oath, and not desirable per se. Further, in most cultures with human sacrifice, it doesn't seem like mourning sacrificial victims for long was a thing - human sacrifice happened regularly, and devoting four days per victim for lamentation would quickly have the year run out of days for other things! So, we can sort of conclude that at the time this story was written, human sacrifice was looked on with horror and disapproval. We of course also learn something about later views on human sacrifice by, say, the explanation that rabbinic judaism provided, ie. she was to live her life unmarried in devotion to god. I doubt they made this up as a kind of "apologetic" explanation - the kind of apologetic argument that exists today wasn't that central to the thinking of 2nd-4th century rabbis. Instead, they made this interpretation of the story up as an ethical teaching (ie, they disapproved of human sacrifice even more strongly than the bible) - both keeping the cake intact and eating it (i.e., don't make rash vows, AND don't sacrifice people) It's interesting that the Jephthah story is in the "deuteronomist history", though, as the deuteronomist author was very specific about what kinds are permissible as sacrifices. Some later commentaries on the Bible (commentaries from antiquity though, not modern ones) suggest that the high priest of Jephthah's time failed his duties by not relieving Jephthah of his oath - it's possible the thing also was written to justify one family holding the priesthood and another losing it, if the commentaries making such claims happen to reflect old traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 The toxicity of these stories dissolves when you realize you are dealing with standard literary tropes of the Ancient Near East. Not history. For example, Idomeneus, a Cretan commander in the Trojan War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idomeneus "A later tradition, preserved by the mythographer Apollodorus of Athens, continues the story as follows: after the war, Idomeneus's ship hit a terrible storm. He promised Poseidon that he would sacrifice the first living thing he saw when he returned home if Poseidon would save his ship and crew. The first living thing was his son, whom Idomeneus duly sacrificed. The gods were angry at his murder of his own son and they sent a plague to Crete." Sacrificing your first-born to appease the gods made for a dramatic story. The people inventing these stories were mostly interested in holding their reader's attention. They never knew that there would be idiots 2,000 years in the future taking everything they wrote literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Yahweh likes human sacrifice, even in the New Testament. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 13, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted January 13, 2014 James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" Yahweh likes human sacrifice, even in the New Testament. Following the argument presented in this scripture, wouldn't it be somewhat logical to ask: Was not yahweh our father justified by works, when he had offered christ his son upon the cross? What, then, did yahweh need to be justified for? The entire old testament, perhaps? And in light of this, do we really need to be justified in his eyes? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 29 Then the spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah, and he went through Gilead and Manasseh, and came to Mizpeh of Gilead; and from Mizpeh of Gilead he went over to the children of Ammon. 30 And Jephthah took an oath to the Lord, and said, If you will give the children of Ammon into my hands, 31 Then whoever comes out from the door of my house, meeting me when I come back in peace from the children of Ammon, will be the Lord's and I will give him as a burned offering. So is the "spirit of the Lord" still on Jephthah when he takes this oath? Why would he need to take such a oath if he already had this spirit aiding him? It doesn't mention any doubt on his part but we might be able to read some in if we chose to. We might also be able to read in that maybe the spirit helped him make this oath. Did the lord take his daughter because of doubt or was she required payment for completing the task? Was it unrelated and just because his own mother was a "loose woman" so his daughter suffered the consequences? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 For me, the story would not make sense if she wasn't sacrificed. If she wasn't sacrificed the story needs to finished, i.e., to tell us the kindness of god and to tell us what she did with her life thereafter. But if she was sacrificed, nothing more needed to be said. And as to Xtians reading this story, would a god inspired story be left in such a state to where it could reasonably be interpreted as a god condoned sacrifice if was not one? It certainly cannot be construed without a doubt to mean that god did not permit a sacrifice. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Christianity is wholly based on child sacrifice (umm.. jesus anyone?) especially of first borns (first fruits, etc…), there is some belief in the historical community that the ancient hebrews did practice child sacrifice, and there are hints in the bible, Jephthah only being one… later on it was condemned though. VERY common in the area, except for Egypt (go figure).I have no doubt this story describes such a sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, 40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileaditeur four days in a year. Its pretty clear from these two verses at the end of Chapter 11 that Jephthah offered his daughter to the Lord as a burnt offering. If he didn't, then why would the daughters of Israel lament his daughter four days every year? I can only wonder at the purpose of such a morbid story. Is this supposed to be a warning to be careful with vows? I have no idea. As a believer, when I read such stories, I just glossed over them without really thinking them through. Now when I read the OT I just see genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and a very fickle narcissistic god. That is the nail in the coffin. If the girl's life was spared then she wouldn't have her own four day holiday for all eternity. You don't get your own holiday named after you unless something big happened. She was young and practically a slave because she was a girl so there was only one big event that could have happened. And her holiday wasn't one of joy. It was a lament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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