Is The Widespread Hatred Of Christianity...

[slave2six]

some of the things she says stirs my fears up

 

Fear is the main reason people stay in Christianity. In such a system, hell is invariably the deepest truth. Hence, as foundations must be laid in the deepest, the system is founded in hell, and the first article in the creed should be, 'I believe in hell' and not 'I believe in god.' 

 

How can I be sure that my "falling away" isn't the fulfillment of the prophecy that in the last days there will be a great falling away and even the elect will be deceived? This thought keeps haunting me right now.

 

Ah, the old "falling away" strategy. I've heard it used against Catholics (who are Christians), Mormons, JWs, Baptists, and all those poor people who have fallen away and joined a non-denominational church. 

 

How many times has your own father threatened to disown you and shove you into a torture chamber for the rest of your life? That's essentially how the Christian god operates. "Love me or spend eternity in hell." Who could resist such an offer?

 

Look, if that's what god is really like, it doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not; you are totally screwed. Someone like that can't be trusted.

 

To be honest, it is far kinder and charitable to think that there is no god than to believe in a god like that. It's one of the things I have enjoyed about being agnostic/atheist - I don't have to judge myself or others based on what they claim to believe. It's a lot easier to love people and accept them for who they are when that crap is all put behind you. If god will heave you into hell for taking the path that allows you to love people better, he's an ass.

[Vigile]

 

but recently decided if it is indeed truth and worth living and possibly one day dying for, it should be able to stand up to scrutiny and unfortunately, it did not.

 

 

That's really cool. I had the exact same thought process when I was deconverting.  I basically decided that if it was real, it could withstand the test of fire.  If it burned up by my questions, it wasn't real in the first place.  In the end, nothing of my former belief system survived my honest questions.  It was hard at the time but it all just seems so distant now. 

 

[slave2six]

My husband first had doubts a few years ago and sunk into a very deep depression over it. I fought every inclination to question my faith, but recently decided if it is indeed truth and worth living and possibly one day dying for, it should be able to stand up to scrutiny and unfortunately, it did not. I have been saddened by this, but am learning to accept and embrace it.

 

 

Deconverting is a tough row to hoe. For me, I felt like I was going through detox. I was miserable for months as the realization that the beliefs of a lifetime were false. I was disappointed, hurt and angry that so much of my life had been lost in a world of nonsense. 

 

It's natural for you to feel the way you do. Disillusionment is never easy. But it's better than living in an illusion, IMHO.

[midniterider]

Is the widespread hatred of Christianity evidence that it is "truth"?

 

I am a newly de-converted Christian and this is one of my mom's arguments for Christianity.

 

Along with the hatred for the Jews throughout history and the worldwide spread of the Jewish people.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

The Christians have to meet in secret to avoid public tortture down there in Fla? Or can they meet freely in one of many churches?

[Ricknlia]

 

Is the widespread hatred of Christianity evidence that it is "truth"?

 

I am a newly de-converted Christian and this is one of my mom's arguments for Christianity.

 

Along with the hatred for the Jews throughout history and the worldwide spread of the Jewish people.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

The Christians have to meet in secret to avoid public tortture down there in Fla? Or can they meet freely in one of many churches?

 

My mom is referring to around the world, of course. Over the years, reading such things as the Voice of the Martyrs,a publication sharing the persecution of Christians around the world, has led us all to believe that the persecution of Christians far outweighs any other religious persecution, and that it is only a matter of time before it is here in the U.S.

 

My mother is in no way referring to personal experience, but she and my father were involved in a Messianic Jewish congregation for many years and have a solid connection to the Jews, so much so that they did several dna tests over the years to try and prove there is some form of Jewish lineage in our family. That being said, I think they definitely throw the Christian persecution in with the anti-semitic actions around the world.

[Ricknlia]

 

My husband first had doubts a few years ago and sunk into a very deep depression over it. I fought every inclination to question my faith, but recently decided if it is indeed truth and worth living and possibly one day dying for, it should be able to stand up to scrutiny and unfortunately, it did not. I have been saddened by this, but am learning to accept and embrace it.

 

 

Deconverting is a tough row to hoe. For me, I felt like I was going through detox. I was miserable for months as the realization that the beliefs of a lifetime were false. I was disappointed, hurt and angry that so much of my life had been lost in a world of nonsense. 

 

It's natural for you to feel the way you do. Disillusionment is never easy. But it's better than living in an illusion, IMHO.

 

It is tough, but I am handling it better than my husband did, thankfully, no depression here. Mostly fear...I feel as though I am "coming out"....very strange.

[Bhim]

Is the widespread hatred of Christianity evidence that it is "truth"?

 

I am a newly de-converted Christian and this is one of my mom's arguments for Christianity.

 

Along with the hatred for the Jews throughout history and the worldwide spread of the Jewish people.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

I think others here have made excellent and valid points, so I'll dispense with further explanations about hatred of Christianity not being indicative of the truth of Christianity.

 

Instead, I would like to say that I'm interested that your mom makes the connection to hatred of Jews.  Judaism is often-misunderstood among Christians because it is both a culture and a religion; the spectrum of belief in Judaism spans from atheism to literal belief in the Jewish Bible and oral traditions, and one can still be an accepted member of the Jewish community, participating fully in all rituals.  So varied are Jewish beliefs that there is a popular phrase "ask two Jews, get three opinions."

 

But you want to know what is the one thing that all Jews can agree on?  They all believe that Jesus is not the Messiah.  And this isn't even an argument made from logic (although a plain reading of the Torah does, in my opinion, preclude Jesus' messiahship).  As your mom says, Jews have been hatred and persecuted throughout history.  By Christians.  Jesus is the symbol of the source of all Jewish suffering for the past two thousand years, and therefore any Jew who becomes a Christian is typically ostracized from the Jewish community.  Not that it happens very often.

 

I say all that to point out that if persecution of Christians is indicative of the truth of Christianity, then persecution of Jews should suggest that Judaism, not Christianity, is true.  And if Judaism is true, then Christianity definitely is not.

 

No offense to your mom is intended here.  But I don't think the argument was particularly well conceived.

[ExCBooster]

Here is my question: How can I be sure that my "falling away" isn't the fulfillment of the prophecy that in the last days there will be a great falling away and even the elect will be deceived? This thought keeps haunting me right now.

Hello, timnlia, and welcome!

 

Since that other thread hasn't come up yet, I thought I'd take a stab at this one. Here's a few rhetorical questions, that might put you at ease:

 

How can you be sure that the increasing material fortunes of the island of Vanuatu and the new tourism industry isn't a confirmation of the beliefs of the John Frum religion?

 

How can you be sure that the birth of white American Bison calves aren't a sign that the Lakota Nation will reclaim their former glory?

 

If you're very sure both of these prophesies are nonsense, look at that "falling away" prophesy again. You believed it. There are people in the world who believe in John Frum, and the return of the sacred bison with exactly the same faith and fervour that you had, as a Christian. They have exactly the same evidence you had, when you believed your "falling away" prophesies. If you can reject two out of three of these, why not apply the same reasoning to your own beliefs? What if you had been born into the John Frum religion on Vanuatu? You would believe in it, with the same conviction that you felt as a Christian. And with exactly the same evidence. Ultimately, religious belief is a product of cultural background. Change your background, and your belief system would be different. You might have been a devout Muslim, or Hindu, or Sikh, just given a different set of circumstances in life. Given the massive diversity of beliefs in the world, and that all of them cause the same true feeling and devotion in the hearts of those who believe, it's quite clear that specific religions are a product of culture. Perhaps they reflect some aspects of universal truth, but one must be careful not to confuse the wrapping paper with the present. And that gift of truth and beauty and awe is in every one of us, no matter what we believe.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Here is my question: How can I be sure that my "falling away" isn't the fulfillment of the prophecy that in the last days there will be a great falling away and even the elect will be deceived? This thought keeps haunting me right now.

 

I don't want to sound sarcastic when I say this, but when a person is spreading bullshit and they know it's bullshit, it seems pretty easy to make up a prophecy that goes, "One day, there will be a great number of people who will discover that this is bullshit, which proves that it's actually not bullshit."

 

Predicting something's going to happen that is very likely going to happen is a good way to scare people who are easy to manipulate, while letting those who are not so easy to manipulate know that Christianity's claims are probably not true.

[florduh]

 

Is the widespread hatred of Christianity evidence that it is "truth"?

 

To be honest, I don't think that anyone hates Christians more than other Christians do. You cannot hear any sermon on any given Sunday that won't include some version of why "our sect is right" and "those Christians over there are wrong" (idol worshippers, etc.). 

 

Good point!

[Lilith666]

Considering christianity is the most popular religion on the planet, and by FAR a HUGE MAJORITY in the US, the hate is definitely not very widespread.

 

Tell her, "mom, I have realized that the hatred for homosexuals is WAY more widespread than the hatred of christianity, so it must be the truth, therefore I have decided to become a homosexual."

 

Then just sit quietly waiting for her response.

Rainbows are the truth! Preach it!!!! LOL

[Lilith666]

To some Xians, "hatred for Xianity" actually refers to non-belief in it. Therefore, anyone who doesn't believe that Jehovah "is an awesome god" who should be worshipped unconditionally or that people have the right to control their own lives rather than handing them over to a cult hates Xianity. Truthfully, I don't think that most people know enough about the Jesus cult (war brides, genocide, hypocrisy, etc.) to hate it, since they weren't raised in it. This Xian idea that everyone hates their religion stems from their need to feel persecuted and special.

[midniterider]

 

 

Is the widespread hatred of Christianity evidence that it is "truth"?

 

I am a newly de-converted Christian and this is one of my mom's arguments for Christianity.

 

Along with the hatred for the Jews throughout history and the worldwide spread of the Jewish people.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

The Christians have to meet in secret to avoid public tortture down there in Fla? Or can they meet freely in one of many churches?

 

My mom is referring to around the world, of course. Over the years, reading such things as the Voice of the Martyrs,a publication sharing the persecution of Christians around the world, has led us all to believe that the persecution of Christians far outweighs any other religious persecution, and that it is only a matter of time before it is here in the U.S.

 

My mother is in no way referring to personal experience, but she and my father were involved in a Messianic Jewish congregation for many years and have a solid connection to the Jews, so much so that they did several dna tests over the years to try and prove there is some form of Jewish lineage in our family. That being said, I think they definitely throw the Christian persecution in with the anti-semitic actions around the world.

 

 

There is the occasional graffitti-ing of the local synagogue with swastika's and such here in my town in the west US but nothing much else in the way of Christian persecution, locally. I would agree that other countries like Afghanistan are definitely into the persecution thing... like execution or imprisonment of non-muslims.

 

I remember at my fundy church we were supposed to 'rejoice' when some unbeliever made fun of us because that was supposed to mean we were successfully doing god's work. Like being made fun of is horrible suffering. lol.

[RipVanWinkle]

"She believes that the persecution of Christians throughout history is evidence of Satan trying to

destroy God's people. But haven't all religions been persecuted at some point or another?"

 

Christians have not been persecuted throughout history. To the contrary, the Xtians have been the

persecutors far more than the persecuted. That's the truth. Look at Xtian history. The Crusades, the

Spanish Inquisition,the torturing and killing of witches. for example. Xtians dominated and oppressed the people of Europe for well over 1,000 years. Xtians were subjected to persecution off and on until

Constantine made Xtiaity the favored religion in the Roman Empire in 325AD, If it weren't for Constantine Xtianity would be dead religion in my opinion. bill

[Ricknlia]

 

Is the widespread hatred of Christianity evidence that it is "truth"?

 

I am a newly de-converted Christian and this is one of my mom's arguments for Christianity.

 

Along with the hatred for the Jews throughout history and the worldwide spread of the Jewish people.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

I think others here have made excellent and valid points, so I'll dispense with further explanations about hatred of Christianity not being indicative of the truth of Christianity.

 

Instead, I would like to say that I'm interested that your mom makes the connection to hatred of Jews.  Judaism is often-misunderstood among Christians because it is both a culture and a religion; the spectrum of belief in Judaism spans from atheism to literal belief in the Jewish Bible and oral traditions, and one can still be an accepted member of the Jewish community, participating fully in all rituals.  So varied are Jewish beliefs that there is a popular phrase "ask two Jews, get three opinions."

 

But you want to know what is the one thing that all Jews can agree on?  They all believe that Jesus is not the Messiah.  And this isn't even an argument made from logic (although a plain reading of the Torah does, in my opinion, preclude Jesus' messiahship).  As your mom says, Jews have been hatred and persecuted throughout history.  By Christians.  Jesus is the symbol of the source of all Jewish suffering for the past two thousand years, and therefore any Jew who becomes a Christian is typically ostracized from the Jewish community.  Not that it happens very often.

 

I say all that to point out that if persecution of Christians is indicative of the truth of Christianity, then persecution of Jews should suggest that Judaism, not Christianity, is true.  And if Judaism is true, then Christianity definitely is not.

 

No offense to your mom is intended here.  But I don't think the argument was particularly well conceived.

 

Well, as I previously mentioned, my folks were part of a Messianic Jewish Congregation (comprised mostly of Jews who believe that Jesus was the Messiah) for about 18 years, after having been in the church for about 18 years. They have been to Israel themselves and were heavily involved in the culture and people, trying to reach out and witness to as many as they could wherever they were. There is actually a good number of Jews around the world who believe in Jesus.

 

I agree about the points being made that the persecution is not evidence of the truth, since it could very well be applied to other religions. These are things I need to tuck away inside of me for reflection in the moments of doubt and fear that come and go.

 

I appreciate all of the welcomes and I am thankful for this website and I admire all of you guys for your knowledge and insight.

 

I am going to do my best to avoid discussion of these matters with my parents, but I doubt I will be able to avoid them forever, esp since they live three doors down and our lives are so intertwined, it makes it hard. But I would like to learn as much as I can, so that in the event that I have to defend where I am at with all of this, I can do a good job at it. I never was very good at defending my faith, it was pretty much, well, I believe what I believe because I was raised to believe it and it's what I've always done.

 

The point made about how if I were raised in another family or culture with Muslim, Hindu, etc, beliefs, that would be truth to me is one of the number one reasons I began down this path. As I thought about how truly unfair that would be to be sent to hell when all you were ever taught was about Allah and the Koran from birth, it just made no sense to me.

 

Now that I am stepping back and looking at it from the outside, it seems so clear to me how twisted so much of it is. I have no anger, hatred, or animosity towards Christianity or the people who practice it, as some ex-Christians seem to harbor, and I hope I never get to that point. I am just thankful to be free of it and look forward to the day when all the fear is washed away as well.

[Ricknlia]

"She believes that the persecution of Christians throughout history is evidence of Satan trying to

destroy God's people. But haven't all religions been persecuted at some point or another?"

 

Christians have not been persecuted throughout history. To the contrary, the Xtians have been the

persecutors far more than the persecuted. That's the truth. Look at Xtian history. The Crusades, the

Spanish Inquisition,the torturing and killing of witches. for example. Xtians dominated and oppressed the people of Europe for well over 1,000 years. Xtians were subjected to persecution off and on until

Constantine made Xtiaity the favored religion in the Roman Empire in 325AD, If it weren't for Constantine Xtianity would be dead religion in my opinion. bill

This is the same opinion my husband and I hold. It is very sad to me that so many re-write history in their own minds for the sake of bolstering up their beliefs.

[RipVanWinkle]

It sure is. But, really, this is not an opinion, It's history. Although it is true that history is not an exact science, the history of the Roman Catholic Church is widely reported as is the battles between the Catholics and the protestants starting in the protestant reformation. Lots of innocent people killed on both sides. What does your mother say happened between 325AD and about 1600 during which time the

Catholics had the power the majority of time? And, if your parents are protestants and believe Catholics go to hell because they don't believe the right things, how could anybody have gotten "saved" during the more than a thousand years when nobody was preaching the protestant gospel?

 

I know, timnlia, that these points won't make any difference to your parents. I'm just venting, I share

your frustration. bill

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Nobody is more hated than Westboro Baptist; perhaps Mommy Dearest should consider changing churches.

[florduh]

Whatever, they're not hated enough since they're still around.

[centauri]

She believes that the persecution of Christians throughout history is evidence of Satan trying to destroy God's people. But haven't all religions been persecuted at some point or another?

Well, Christians have persecuted Christians.

example:

The antics of killing and burning Christians in England via Henry VIII, Edward, Bloody Mary, and on and on were based on the belief that they were doing God's work.

I don't see "Satan" being involved.

In fact, there is no instance in the Old Testament where Satan ever disobeys God because Satan is God's servant.

You might mention that tidbit to your mom.

[slave2six]

 

 

My husband first had doubts a few years ago and sunk into a very deep depression over it. I fought every inclination to question my faith, but recently decided if it is indeed truth and worth living and possibly one day dying for, it should be able to stand up to scrutiny and unfortunately, it did not. I have been saddened by this, but am learning to accept and embrace it.

 

 

Deconverting is a tough row to hoe. For me, I felt like I was going through detox. I was miserable for months as the realization that the beliefs of a lifetime were false. I was disappointed, hurt and angry that so much of my life had been lost in a world of nonsense. 

 

It's natural for you to feel the way you do. Disillusionment is never easy. But it's better than living in an illusion, IMHO.

 

It is tough, but I am handling it better than my husband did, thankfully, no depression here. Mostly fear...I feel as though I am "coming out"....very strange.

 

 

You are right. It is very like "coming out." How many of your Christian friends/family know about this? I'd be very cautious about letting them know. That's usually best reserved for when you are sure of your decision and firm in your thoughts. Even then, be prepared for a lot of shunning.

[slave2six]

Nobody is more hated than Westboro Baptist; perhaps Mommy Dearest should consider changing churches.

 

I heard one gay comedian say that he tracks the activities of Westboro Baptist because they know when all the Gay event are and that's how he finds out about fun gay activities in his area.

[sdelsolray]

Right. I am not a debating type of person. I am fine with whatever other people want to believe. But admittedly, some of the things she says stirs my fears up that I am making the wrong choice. As I said, I am in the beginning stages of this thing and I know from everything I have been reading that it gets easier with time.

 

I do have another question. I will post it here, but if I am supposed to start a new thread please let me know. I am new to this kind of website where I am communicating with people like this.

 

Here is my question: How can I be sure that my "falling away" isn't the fulfillment of the prophecy that in the last days there will be a great falling away and even the elect will be deceived? This thought keeps haunting me right now.

I can only suggest that you put aside your religious-based fears and questions, as well as the claims of other theists (such as your mother), and ask yourself the following questions:

 

1)  What rational thinking tools do I have?  Make a list.

2)  Do I have a good understanding of the 20 most common informal logical fallacies?  Can I spot them in real time when they are being used?  If not, you have work to do.

3)  How much of my religious belief is (or was) due to being indoctrinated as a child?  This is when you were vulnerable and trusting of the adults around you.

4)  How much of my religious belief is maintained due to my perceived peer pressure from family, friends and acquaintances?  Be honest about this one.

 

Once you have inventoried these items, I suspect you will have an need and opportunity to study and learn about rational thinking, logic and skepticism.  Carl Sagan called it the "Balogna Detection Toolkit".

[Ricknlia]

 

Nobody is more hated than Westboro Baptist; perhaps Mommy Dearest should consider changing churches.

 

I heard one gay comedian say that he tracks the activities of Westboro Baptist because they know when all the Gay event are and that's how he finds out about fun gay activities in his area.

 

Can you tell me about Westboro Baptist? I am assuming it is a pro-gay church??

[Ricknlia]

 

Right. I am not a debating type of person. I am fine with whatever other people want to believe. But admittedly, some of the things she says stirs my fears up that I am making the wrong choice. As I said, I am in the beginning stages of this thing and I know from everything I have been reading that it gets easier with time.

 

I do have another question. I will post it here, but if I am supposed to start a new thread please let me know. I am new to this kind of website where I am communicating with people like this.

 

Here is my question: How can I be sure that my "falling away" isn't the fulfillment of the prophecy that in the last days there will be a great falling away and even the elect will be deceived? This thought keeps haunting me right now.

I can only suggest that you put aside your religious-based fears and questions, as well as the claims of other theists (such as your mother), and ask yourself the following questions:

 

1)  What rational thinking tools do I have?  Make a list.

2)  Do I have a good understanding of the 20 most common informal logical fallacies?  Can I spot them in real time when they are being used?  If not, you have work to do.

3)  How much of my religious belief is (or was) due to being indoctrinated as a child?  This is when you were vulnerable and trusting of the adults around you.

4)  How much of my religious belief is maintained due to my perceived peer pressure from family, friends and acquaintances?  Be honest about this one.

 

Once you have inventoried these items, I suspect you will have an need and opportunity to study and learn about rational thinking, logic and skepticism.  Carl Sagan called it the "Balogna Detection Toolkit".

 

I hope I don't offend anyone for not responding to every reply to my post....I am a little overwhelmed and don't always have a response, I just enjoy reading the thoughts....hope that's ok.

 

I am as far from an intellectual as I could possibly be. I am not stupid. But I am not an intellectual. So your questions are great, but I don't really have a clue how I would answer numbers 1 and 2.

 

Number 3, no doubt all of it since I was raised in a Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night, every time the doors were open kind of family along with weekly fasting, Bible study and family prayer times.

 

Number 4, I have also always cared deeply about pleasing my parents and this is one area I have always tried to protect them from disappointment in me for, even if it meant concealing things if I had too. My immediate family is religious which makes relations a little strained at this point, no common ground, as my father would say. Plus all of my children's friends are Christians. This will not deter me from my path, because I am past the point of no return. But it does put me in an awkward position because I don't want to see my kids rejected. I personally am not a friend kind of gal, I love being with my kids and my husband, but my children need their friends. So here I find myself in a difficult position, to say the least.

 

I am very proud of myself that I am not living a charade for them today. It is not easy, but I have to be true to myself. I am not a fake, never have been.

 

So I hope as I read on here and keep taking it day by day, I will arrive at that place of total peace with the path I find myself on.