What Evidence Would Make You Believe Again?

[OrdinaryClay]

So why kill the infants? So child sacrifice is evil, therefore it is ok to kill the babies and infants??? Moronic.

Ah, it's just the infants you object too? You agree then that your judgment was flawed. I fail to understand why we should trust your judgment in any case. Also ,it would only be right for me to point out that our society kills millions of pre-natal infants all while the majority of our society watches with indifference. Again, flawed human judgment.

 

That said, we still do not possess the knowledge to pass judgment. Those judgments were for a unique time in history which you know virtually nothing about. We must assume God knew the full consequences and determined the infants spiritual future would be better served had they died at that time.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

I also reject it because the god of the bible is immoral even using god's own measuring rod. 

It is impossible for you to judge the morality of God because you have imperfect knowledge about the circumstances in which God made judgements. He has perfect knowledge. God has complete knowledge when He passes judgement. So in essence when you judge God you are simply claiming to be god, which is irrational.

 

 

 

You assume that Bible god is actually "God", which is something you or I can't possibly know, even if Bible god exists. We would need to rely on his word alone to believe that. You assume that he has perfect knowledge and makes perfect judgments. For all you know, he is a demon who crawled out of Hell and he is far more powerful than one would expect a demon to be, so his magic tricks seem god-like to humans. He might know more than humans, but he may not know everything, but uses what he does know to manipulate us humans like puppets on strings.

 

In essence, OC, by claiming that your god is actually a god in the first place and that he has perfect knowledge, you are claiming to know what one must actually be God to know, which is irrational.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

God is a hypocrite, child sacrifice is evil, so he is right to kill children... ??? That's just fucking stupid.

I think Bible god was just pissed that the children were being sacrificed to a different god. "If you're gonna sacrifice the children, humans, do it right! Sacrifice to me or I'll make my human army kill you and all of your kids that you haven't sacrificed yet!"

What an asshole! YHWH deserves to be stoned to death for his sins, according to HIS OWN LAW! Suck it YHWH, your a hypocrite.

 

You're emotion gives your true motives away. Again, nothing to do with evidence or logic.

[pawn]

Ok clay, your cult-washed mind is so clear on this, I see the light now! Praise the baby-killing Lord!

[Galien]

its pretty clear clay your head is stuck so far up your own arrogant ass you have not seen daylight for quite some time

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

I also reject it because the god of the bible is immoral even using god's own measuring rod. 

It is impossible for you to judge the morality of God because you have imperfect knowledge about the circumstances in which God made judgements. He has perfect knowledge. God has complete knowledge when He passes judgement. So in essence when you judge God you are simply claiming to be god, which is irrational.

 

 

 

You assume that Bible god is actually "God", which is something you nor I can't possibly know, even if Bible god exists. We would need to rely on his word alone to believe that. You assume that he has perfect knowledge and makes perfect judgments. For all you know, he is a demon who crawled out of Hell and he is far more powerful than one would expect a demon to be, so his magic tricks seem god-like to humans. He might know more than humans, but he may not know everything, but uses what he does know to manipulated us like puppets on strings.

 

In essence, OC, by assuming that your god is actually a god in the first place and that he has perfect knowledge, you are claiming to know what one must actually be God to know, which is irrational.

 

No, My claims are about my knowledge not God's knowledge. pawn's claims were about God's knowledge. He was judging His actions not another humans. Of course, I, and you, know something, and based on that knowledge we make choices about what to believe. This is not irrational. To claim to have God's knowledge is irrational.

 

I claim to believe that The Creator of the universe is Holy and good. First, there is evidence the universe was created, and that The Creator was a sentient being and is omnipotent. Second,, by definition The Creator cannot be a demon. Third, if the omnipotent creator were as evil as a demon, then reason would convince me the world would be far, far, far worse than it is today. Salvation through Christ is evidence to me that The Creator is Holy and good.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

its pretty clear clay your head is stuck so far up your own arrogant ass you have not seen daylight for quite some time

Because I claim to know some truth I'm arrogant? Does not make sense. Everyone on here claims to know some truth in their life.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

I also reject it because the god of the bible is immoral even using god's own measuring rod. 

It is impossible for you to judge the morality of God because you have imperfect knowledge about the circumstances in which God made judgements. He has perfect knowledge. God has complete knowledge when He passes judgement. So in essence when you judge God you are simply claiming to be god, which is irrational.

 

 

 

You assume that Bible god is actually "God", which is something you nor I can't possibly know, even if Bible god exists. We would need to rely on his word alone to believe that. You assume that he has perfect knowledge and makes perfect judgments. For all you know, he is a demon who crawled out of Hell and he is far more powerful than one would expect a demon to be, so his magic tricks seem god-like to humans. He might know more than humans, but he may not know everything, but uses what he does know to manipulated us like puppets on strings.

 

In essence, OC, by assuming that your god is actually a god in the first place and that he has perfect knowledge, you are claiming to know what one must actually be God to know, which is irrational.

 

No, My claims are about my knowledge not God's knowledge. pawn's claims were about God's knowledge. He was judging His actions not another humans. Of course, I, and you, know something, and based on that knowledge we make choices about what to believe. This is not irrational. To claim to have God's knowledge is irrational.

 

I claim to believe that The Creator of the universe is Holy and good. First, there is evidence the universe was created, and that The Creator was a sentient being and is omnipotent. Second,, by definition The Creator cannot be a demon. Third, if the omnipotent creator were as evil as a demon, then reason would convince me the world would be far, far, far worse than it is today. Salvation through Christ is evidence to me that The Creator is Holy and good.

 

more than God because God was violating His own morality.

 

 

There you go again... You assume that the creator of the universe is Yahweh. You assume that Yahweh is holy and good. A different creator could have designed the universe, not Yahweh. Yahweh could be a demon who is pretending to be The Creator, when he is not, but you are worshiping Yahweh and pretending that Yahweh is The Creator. I never said that the omnipotent creator was as evil as a demon.

 

I fail to see how the salvation of Christ is salvation at all. I see the salvation of Christ as no different than a doctor poisoning a patient, just so they can cure them and say, "I saved you!"

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

 

I also reject it because the god of the bible is immoral even using god's own measuring rod. 

It is impossible for you to judge the morality of God because you have imperfect knowledge about the circumstances in which God made judgements. He has perfect knowledge. God has complete knowledge when He passes judgement. So in essence when you judge God you are simply claiming to be god, which is irrational.

 

 

 

You assume that Bible god is actually "God", which is something you nor I can't possibly know, even if Bible god exists. We would need to rely on his word alone to believe that. You assume that he has perfect knowledge and makes perfect judgments. For all you know, he is a demon who crawled out of Hell and he is far more powerful than one would expect a demon to be, so his magic tricks seem god-like to humans. He might know more than humans, but he may not know everything, but uses what he does know to manipulated us like puppets on strings.

 

In essence, OC, by assuming that your god is actually a god in the first place and that he has perfect knowledge, you are claiming to know what one must actually be God to know, which is irrational.

 

No, My claims are about my knowledge not God's knowledge. pawn's claims were about God's knowledge. He was judging His actions not another humans. Of course, I, and you, know something, and based on that knowledge we make choices about what to believe. This is not irrational. To claim to have God's knowledge is irrational.

 

I claim to believe that The Creator of the universe is Holy and good. First, there is evidence the universe was created, and that The Creator was a sentient being and is omnipotent. Second,, by definition The Creator cannot be a demon. Third, if the omnipotent creator were as evil as a demon, then reason would convince me the world would be far, far, far worse than it is today. Salvation through Christ is evidence to me that The Creator is Holy and good.

 

more than God because God was violating His own morality.

 

 

There you go again... You assume that the creator of the universe is Yahweh. You assume that Yahweh is holy and good. A different creator could have designed the universe, not Yahweh. Yahweh could be a demon who is pretending to be The Creator, when he is not, but you are worshiping Yahweh and pretending that Yahweh is The Creator. I never said that the omnipotent creator was as evil as a demon.

 

I fail to see how the salvation of Christ is salvation at all. I see the salvation of Christ as no different than a doctor poisoning a patient, just so they can cure them and say, "I saved you!"

 

Re-read what I wrote. I believe

1) The Creator is Holy and Good. I did this based on reasoning not assumption.

2) The Creator cannot be a demon by definition.

 

That said, it really does not matter for the sake of the argument in this particular discussion that we assume God exists. Even you are assuming He exists, you are just calling Him a demon, based on no reasoning from what I can gather. The point is that we are discussing His attributes assuming He exists.

[Galien]

 

its pretty clear clay your head is stuck so far up your own arrogant ass you have not seen daylight for quite some time

Because I claim to know some truth I'm arrogant? Does not make sense. Everyone on here claims to know some truth in their life.

 

 

All of this shit is completely made up. there is no real evidence for any of it, sure you keep telling yourself there is because for some reason you need that to maintain your equilibrium.

 

biggest truth i ever worked out is that anyone who comes to me claiming anything about any god is totally full of shit.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

its pretty clear clay your head is stuck so far up your own arrogant ass you have not seen daylight for quite some time

Because I claim to know some truth I'm arrogant? Does not make sense. Everyone on here claims to know some truth in their life.

 

 

All of this shit is completely made up. there is no real evidence for any of it, sure you keep telling yourself there is because for some reason you need that to maintain your equilibrium.

 

biggest truth i ever worked out is that anyone who comes to me claiming anything about any god is totally full of shit.

 

So how do you know your  belief to be true?

[Galien]

 

 

 

its pretty clear clay your head is stuck so far up your own arrogant ass you have not seen daylight for quite some time

Because I claim to know some truth I'm arrogant? Does not make sense. Everyone on here claims to know some truth in their life.

 

 

All of this shit is completely made up. there is no real evidence for any of it, sure you keep telling yourself there is because for some reason you need that to maintain your equilibrium.

 

biggest truth i ever worked out is that anyone who comes to me claiming anything about any god is totally full of shit.

 

So how do you know your  belief to be true?

 

fifty two years of listening to bullshit. but mainly from watching, watching, watching. people are always the same, christianity makes them no different. i expected the bible to be true when it talks abut the love of god shed abroad in hearts by the holy spirit.

 

there is no fucking love in churches. there is the same thing you find in every other group, politics, hate, gossip, bitching, sucking up to the leaders, jockeying for position, lack of compassion.

 

claims of thelogical knowledge made by people so morally corrupt on their own arrogance they lost compassion for eveyrone around them. power fucks people up clay, no matter what arena it is in.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

 

 

I also reject it because the god of the bible is immoral even using god's own measuring rod. 

It is impossible for you to judge the morality of God because you have imperfect knowledge about the circumstances in which God made judgements. He has perfect knowledge. God has complete knowledge when He passes judgement. So in essence when you judge God you are simply claiming to be god, which is irrational.

 

 

 

You assume that Bible god is actually "God", which is something you nor I can't possibly know, even if Bible god exists. We would need to rely on his word alone to believe that. You assume that he has perfect knowledge and makes perfect judgments. For all you know, he is a demon who crawled out of Hell and he is far more powerful than one would expect a demon to be, so his magic tricks seem god-like to humans. He might know more than humans, but he may not know everything, but uses what he does know to manipulated us like puppets on strings.

 

In essence, OC, by assuming that your god is actually a god in the first place and that he has perfect knowledge, you are claiming to know what one must actually be God to know, which is irrational.

 

No, My claims are about my knowledge not God's knowledge. pawn's claims were about God's knowledge. He was judging His actions not another humans. Of course, I, and you, know something, and based on that knowledge we make choices about what to believe. This is not irrational. To claim to have God's knowledge is irrational.

 

I claim to believe that The Creator of the universe is Holy and good. First, there is evidence the universe was created, and that The Creator was a sentient being and is omnipotent. Second,, by definition The Creator cannot be a demon. Third, if the omnipotent creator were as evil as a demon, then reason would convince me the world would be far, far, far worse than it is today. Salvation through Christ is evidence to me that The Creator is Holy and good.

 

more than God because God was violating His own morality.

 

 

There you go again... You assume that the creator of the universe is Yahweh. You assume that Yahweh is holy and good. A different creator could have designed the universe, not Yahweh. Yahweh could be a demon who is pretending to be The Creator, when he is not, but you are worshiping Yahweh and pretending that Yahweh is The Creator. I never said that the omnipotent creator was as evil as a demon.

 

I fail to see how the salvation of Christ is salvation at all. I see the salvation of Christ as no different than a doctor poisoning a patient, just so they can cure them and say, "I saved you!"

 

Re-read what I wrote. I believe

1) The Creator is Holy and Good. I did this based on reasoning not assumption.

2) The Creator cannot be a demon by definition.

 

That said, it really does not matter for the sake of the argument in this particular discussion that we assume God exists. Even you are assuming He exists, you are just calling Him a demon, based on no reasoning from what I can gather. The point is that we are discussing His attributes assuming He exists.

 

 

I never assumed that a god existed and was not calling it a demon. I was saying that your god could be a demon, instead of a god, trying to trick you into believing that it's a god. There is a difference between saying "is" and "could be".

 

Also, the possibility of your god being a demon is definitely based on reasoning. 1) When you say "God" you are referring to Yahweh, as described in the Bible, correct? If you say that Yahweh is "God" then you are saying that Yahweh is The Creator.

 

2) Yahweh's behavior in the Bible is no different than I would expect a corrupt, human dictator to behave. The only difference is he has more power and is a lot more frightening.

 

3) Because Yahweh behaves like a corrupt, human dictator and commits acts that one must be sadistic to commit, then he very well could be a demon, deceiving humans into thinking he's a god with some magic tricks.

 

That is how my reasoning works.

[antix]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any evidence would be a place to start.

 

 

The evidence usually given is the books of the Bible.  And for Catholics and some others also the writings of the early church fathers.

 

But as we all know contradictions, errors and absurdities abound in these texts.

 

Apart from that, the arguments given by Christians usually fall into the category of "I have some warm fuzzy feelings" or "the universe exists therefore God exists".

 

Which as we know on this forum, does not prove a great deal, if anything.

 

On the contrary, the Bible is a category of evidence called special revelation. There is far more evidence than that.

 

Do your research on natural theology. Here are some starters...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=natural+theology

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=natural%20theology

 

 

You have to look at the evidence or data 100 percent impartially.  Of course the Exxon scientist will prove global warming is a joke and the hippy prof will prove the exact opposite.

 

What makes you think you are looking at the evidence 100% impartially?

 

 

I probably am not, but I admit it

 

And yet, you still have made a choice in what to believe.

 

 

I have serious questions about my beliefs, I am not here to troll.  I believed but lost my faith. I am not saying there is not a supernatural realm, but christanity is a joke.

[mymistake]

 

This question comes up periodically, but the truth is, there isn't any evidence that would convince me at this point.  The world would have to be very different than the world we now live in because an all powerful, all knowing, all benevolent god could not possibly exist in this world. 

If there is no evidence that would convince you otherwise this means your disbelief is not based on logic.

 

 

Just like your belief, Clay.

[mymistake]

 

 

Re-read what I wrote. I believe

1) The Creator is Holy and Good. I did this based on reasoning not assumption.

2) The Creator cannot be a demon by definition.

 

That said, it really does not matter for the sake of the argument in this particular discussion that we assume God exists. Even you are assuming He exists, you are just calling Him a demon, based on no reasoning from what I can gather. The point is that we are discussing His attributes assuming He exists.

 

 

 

Logic is not your area.  If you think your belief is based on reasoning then you do not understand what reasoning means.  If the nature of the Creator is determined by definitions then the Creator is an idea instead of a real thing.

[antix]

 

You should read the Quran, it has evidence for a God too, but it says christianity is wrong! Evidence.

I don't believe you understand what evidence is.

 

 

Why does God appear as a pillar of fire to the wondering jews and why does Jesus create miracles and healing for everyone to see when today, most of us just want one supernatural experience from God to regain our belief?   God does not heal amputees is more than enough enough evidence that he does not heal probably because he does not exist

[Vigile]

 

This question comes up periodically, but the truth is, there isn't any evidence that would convince me at this point.  The world would have to be very different than the world we now live in because an all powerful, all knowing, all benevolent god could not possibly exist in this world. 

If there is no evidence that would convince you otherwise this means your disbelief is not based on logic.

 

 

No retard, it means that the god you claim is impossible in this world in which we live; a conclusion that is based on real evidence. 

 

I doubt you think there's evidence that could convince you that pigs could fly too, would it be illogical of you to express this thought? 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

 

its pretty clear clay your head is stuck so far up your own arrogant ass you have not seen daylight for quite some time

Because I claim to know some truth I'm arrogant? Does not make sense. Everyone on here claims to know some truth in their life.

 

 

All of this shit is completely made up. there is no real evidence for any of it, sure you keep telling yourself there is because for some reason you need that to maintain your equilibrium.

 

biggest truth i ever worked out is that anyone who comes to me claiming anything about any god is totally full of shit.

 

So how do you know your  belief to be true?

 

fifty two years of listening to bullshit. but mainly from watching, watching, watching. people are always the same, christianity makes them no different. i expected the bible to be true when it talks abut the love of god shed abroad in hearts by the holy spirit.

 

there is no fucking love in churches. there is the same thing you find in every other group, politics, hate, gossip, bitching, sucking up to the leaders, jockeying for position, lack of compassion.

 

claims of thelogical knowledge made by people so morally corrupt on their own arrogance they lost compassion for eveyrone around them. power fucks people up clay, no matter what arena it is in.

 

 

Wow, OC's going to have to twist his brain into a pretzel to get around this. I suspect he's going to quote some Bible scripture about how Paul is a slave to sin and say that Christians are still slaves to sin, but completely ignore the stuff about how they are all supposed to be new creations in Christ.

 

Maybe "new creation" actually means that they will become devoid of empathy and sympathy for nonbelievers and they will all have a persecution complex that they wave around every time someone thinks they're wrong.

[Vigile]

OC doesn't give a shit about anything but winning arguments.  I doubt I've met a more disingenuous chap; equal, to be sure, but not more. 

 

Just a heads up to the new guys here.  Engage him if you want, but be fair warned it will just lead to countless rabbit trails and the guy will never admit he's wrong even when it's staring him in the face. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I claim to believe that The Creator of the universe is Holy and good. First, there is evidence the universe was created, and that The Creator was a sentient being and is omnipotent. Second,, by definition The Creator cannot be a demon. Third, if the omnipotent creator were as evil as a demon, then reason would convince me the world would be far, far, far worse than it is today. Salvation through Christ is evidence to me that The Creator is Holy and good.

 

 

Please present this evidence.  As a member of the scientific community, I would like the opportunity to examine it.

[duderonomy]

 

1 Samuel 15:2,3

 

2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

 

 

 

Hosea 13:16

 

16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,

because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword;

their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

their pregnant women ripped open."

You should broaden your understanding of history. You stand back thousands of years with out a clue what the world was like or the circumstances of God's judgment.The surrounding pagan societies were with out a doubt evil. This is stated in the Bible multiple times. They engaged in infant and child sacrifice. Plainly you pass judgement with little knowledge in your possession. My point still stands. You are ill-informed and incapable of passing judgment.

 

Archaeological Human Sacrifice Evidence

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/turkeycayonu.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1157784/Do-mysterious-stones-mark-site-Garden-Eden.html

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moabite_stone

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice

 

So because these Samarians practiced killing children in their child sacrifices, it's OK for your (and my former) god to send his people to rip open the bellies of pregnant women and kill both them and the child?    What?  And the Amalekites' cattle and sheep and camels and donkeys?  What did they do to piss off the Almighty? (Good quotes pawn, thanks)

  

I mean, men women infants children cattle sheep camels and donkeys? Kill them all? It's in the Bible, so it must be true, right? It must be true history.

 

Who are you to talk about judgement Clay?  Who is worthy to judge?  Even Christians are told to judge those within the church. Christians are told to judge. You forget that most of us were once a part of that church, and most of us at one time judged people like you. We were right then too, at least about that.

 

What is this evidence you speak of that is beyond empirical evidence? I'd like to see it. You offer the anecdotal evidence of the Bible. Someone points out that the Quaran might also be true then, but you poo poo that. You are only placing one dead book ahead of another.

 

Have you heard the saying that atheists like to use, that "we only believe in one less god than you"? You make that statement make sense to me, and I'm no atheist.

[mymistake]

I think it's funny that Clay demands others broaden their understanding of history calling them "with out a clue what the world was like or the circumstances of God's judgment" when Clay doesn't understand that humans were sacrificed to his God and at the time it was worshiped side by side with many other Jewish gods including the father of Yahweh. 

[duderonomy]

I think it's funny that Clay demands others broaden their understanding of history calling them "with out a clue what the world was like or the circumstances of God's judgment" when Clay doesn't understand that humans were sacrificed to his God and at the time it was worshiped side by side with many other Jewish gods including the father of Yahweh. 

 

Wait! What?

 

Humans were sacrificed to God? That's not in the Bible so it doesn't count.

[midniterider]

darnit.