Moderator Margee Posted October 8, 2013 Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2013 If he would just pay my house off , I might go to one church service........ You guys have all given excellent answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 I'm a committed apatheist, so even if god showed up to me personally, miraculously resurrected my favorite childhood pet, turned my tap water into whiskey, and placed a hundred million dollars in my bank account, I still wouldn't give a damn. I like that answer. Water into whiskey sounds like a neat trick to me I have a different view. If God showed up to me personally, I may change my view. Or if God was to speak to me personally, maybe I could change my view. This of course is academic as this hasnt happended and I doubt very much this will ever happen. In fact I'd wager this has never happened in the whole of human history. The continual silence says a lot about the existence of any celestial super-heros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhoof Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I'd believe in GOD again only if GOD came down and EVERYONE on earth saw God and God explained very clearly to every single human being the reason we're here, what's going on, answered everyone's questions, and fixed up the big mess of suffering going on here on this planet. Like others have said, if God just appeared to me personally, I would chalk it up to a hallucination. And the personal visit would have to go on long enough over time (weeks? months?) so I wouldn't just think it was a hallucination or dream or someone shitting me. And not just a personal visit to me, but a visit that lots of people would see and hear, and God could hand us a definitive text we could all understand readily, and God would hang around long enough (months? years?) to make sure we all understood things correctly Too true!! One of the things I'd always been struck by was the continually failed formula of revaling himself to one solitary person, who then had the onus of convincing everybody else that what he told them was true. Over... and over... and over... and over again! And now that I've revisited this, I'm gonna recant my statement about aliens with their own matching copy of revealed teachings. Any other race advanced enough to travel here would have already long since been monitoring our airwaves. Far too much christian nonsense has been flung to the ether for that premise to hold anymore. /and the odds against climb higher still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrth Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Questions of 'evidence' and God are not philosophically compatible, so there's really no point in asking. Even Christians have recognized this -- Kierkegaard comes to mind, with his leap of faith. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Questions of 'evidence' and God are not philosophically compatible, so there's really no point in asking. Even Christians have recognized this -- Kierkegaard comes to mind, with his leap of faith. Just because deists wish to move the goal posts doesn't mean they are exempt from the rules of the game. Faith is a cop out, not a get out of jail free card IMO. Reminds me of South Park, the Americans vs Bosnians game: STAN Cartman, we shot your Bosnian fat ass! KYLE Yeah! You're dead! CARTMAN I have Class 4 armor on, that, uh, ih-ih- STAN No, you don't! CARTMAN -special armor, that's impenetrable to American bullets. KYLE Dude! Every time we play Americans vs. Bosnians, you cheat! STAN Yeah, Cartman, you suck! If you want to play Americans vs. Bosnians any more, you can just play with yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Since the religion is Christianity and the center of that religion is Jesus, it would have to be something from or about Jesus. An appearance to me personally would not do the trick because that could just be my imagination or one or two too many Scotches. I think that a mass appearance by Jesus, and by "mass appearance" I mean to all people on earth, and for Jesus to explain to all people whether the Bible is true and, if true, to prove it. If he admits that it is not all true, to explain what parts are untrue and exactly how they got in the Bible and then to explain the parts that are true and prove they are true. In this appearance, every person on earth would hear what he said in their own language and his voice would have to be recordable so we have a record and proof that what he said was, in fact, said at the exact time, by the same voice, and it was not by some translator. After that, like Margee said, he would then have to pay off my mortgage.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 If he would just pay my house off , I might go to one church service........ Margee, have you tithed enough to make that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 9, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted October 9, 2013 If he would just pay my house off , I might go to one church service........ Margee, have you tithed enough to make that happen? That made me laugh out loud, a rare occurrence for this ol' redneck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddick Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I don't think there could be any amount of evidence to make me believe there is a God, he can try to convince me by doing parlour tricks, but I'm sure Chris Angel or one of those clowns could do it better. He could bitch slap the likes of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, that might go a long way. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 If I win the largest jackpot in lottery history, opt for yearly payments, and collect the last one twenty-something years from now, I would consider it. Based on the amount of evidence He has given to us, I think my request is fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 If there was actual evidence, one wouldn't have to believe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Occasionally apologists will ask me what I would consider to be sufficient evidence to believe that Jesus resurrected from the dead. Fair enough. Seeing as I deny that there is sufficient evidence to reasonably believe in the resurrection, what amount or type of evidence would I consider adequate to meet the onus probandi for establishing such an extraordinary claim? From Matthew Ferguson's recent Blog. http://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/griffin-beak-mermaid-fin-and-dragon-blood-soup/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Well the only thing I know about this life and this planet is that I don't really know anything at all. None of us do it's all so convoluted and complex. So yeah I've certainly left open the possibility that the god of the bible exists. But if the man himself Jesus Christ whom I was taught to wholeheartedly unreservedly love, admire, worship, and respect; if he himself were to come to my house tonight in all his bright firey glory, well, maybe I would believe that he exists. Like others have said, I might think it was a hallucination. Or maybe it's the devil himself "appearing as an angel of light." Maybe this world has been run by evil scientists all along and they've created a talking hologram "Jesus" trying to convince me to believe in Jesus. This world we're living in is just like Alice Through the Looking Glass, you never know what to believe and things aren't always what they appear. It's impossible to even trust your own judgement or to trust scientific "facts" or anything. Because ultimately everything can be wrong. Ultimately we can build the Titanic and ultimately we can sink in it. I can never go back to being a Christian. That ship has sailed. Shipwrecked. Sunk. Too many false hopes, false promises, too much pain. This world is a catastrophe and no wonder the gods hide themselves. They must be scared as well. They (the gods) must know as well as any of the rest of us know that the ship's gone down. Can't ever be religious anymore. Spiritual and moral, absolutely. Let's pretend if the real Jesus Christ did appear to me tonight and he was not a hologram or a deceit but he was the real deal Jesus of the cross. Then I must say like Anna did in Anna and the King. "How many more people must die so that you might save face!" If Jesus exists....I don't think he must have ever meant for life to be like this. He must have thought his brutal death would save the world otherwise why ever go through with such a thing. But it hasn't worked out and we're all just....dying. Anna Leonowens: You have the power to lead your people... King Mongkut: Now is not the time to change the way that things are done! Anna Leonowens: Well, if not now, then when? How many more people must die so that you might save face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 This question comes up periodically, but the truth is, there isn't any evidence that would convince me at this point. The world would have to be very different than the world we now live in because an all powerful, all knowing, all benevolent god could not possibly exist in this world. If there is no evidence that would convince you otherwise this means your disbelief is not based on logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Well the only thing I know about this life and this planet is that I don't really know anything at all. None of us do it's all so convoluted and complex. So yeah I've certainly left open the possibility that the god of the bible exists. But if the man himself Jesus Christ whom I was taught to wholeheartedly unreservedly love, admire, worship, and respect; if he himself were to come to my house tonight in all his bright firey glory, well, maybe I would believe that he exists. Like others have said, I might think it was a hallucination. Or maybe it's the devil himself "appearing as an angel of light." Maybe this world has been run by evil scientists all along and they've created a talking hologram "Jesus" trying to convince me to believe in Jesus. This world we're living in is just like Alice Through the Looking Glass, you never know what to believe and things aren't always what they appear. It's impossible to even trust your own judgement or to trust scientific "facts" or anything. Because ultimately everything can be wrong. Ultimately we can build the Titanic and ultimately we can sink in it. The idea that nothing is knowable is self refuting. If nothing is knowable then your claim nothing is knowable is not knowable. There is a set of absolute truths on which reality is based. Finding a sufficient subset of these truths is our job, should we choose to accept it. It's our choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 19, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted October 19, 2013 If there is no evidence that would convince you otherwise this means your disbelief is not based on logic. What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 If there was actual evidence, one wouldn't have to believe. Belief is simply the position of holding something to be true. How we determine if something is true is based on many factors. One of these factors is evidence. Why do you believe in ishtar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 If there is no evidence that would convince you otherwise this means your disbelief is not based on logic. What? If there is no evidence that would convince you otherwise this means your disbelief is not based on logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antix Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I'm a committed apatheist, so even if god showed up to me personally, miraculously resurrected my favorite childhood pet, turned my tap water into whiskey, and placed a hundred million dollars in my bank account, I still wouldn't give a damn. LMAO By the way, the most Xian acting person I know is an apatheist. He could care less one way or another and he does missionary work every summer at some really poor town on the WV KY border. He leads a youth group from the local high school and goes down there for a week and does home repairs on his own dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I don't think there could be any amount of evidence to make me believe there is a God, he can try to convince me by doing parlour tricks, but I'm sure Chris Angel or one of those clowns could do it better. He could bitch slap the likes of Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, that might go a long way. Lol I hear this a lot. It tells me clearly that your disbelief is based simply on emotion. It is not wise to make such an important decision based simply on emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Any evidence would be a place to start. The evidence usually given is the books of the Bible. And for Catholics and some others also the writings of the early church fathers. But as we all know contradictions, errors and absurdities abound in these texts. Apart from that, the arguments given by Christians usually fall into the category of "I have some warm fuzzy feelings" or "the universe exists therefore God exists". Which as we know on this forum, does not prove a great deal, if anything. On the contrary, the Bible is a category of evidence called special revelation. There is far more evidence than that. Do your research on natural theology. Here are some starters... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=natural+theology http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=natural%20theology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 On the contrary, the Bible is a category of evidence called special revelation. ... which is entirely defined by believers. Since "special revelation" can't be checked by impartial observers or measured against known realities, it makes such extremely poor "evidence" that it's not evidence at all, except to those already inclined to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antix Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Any evidence would be a place to start. The evidence usually given is the books of the Bible. And for Catholics and some others also the writings of the early church fathers. But as we all know contradictions, errors and absurdities abound in these texts. Apart from that, the arguments given by Christians usually fall into the category of "I have some warm fuzzy feelings" or "the universe exists therefore God exists". Which as we know on this forum, does not prove a great deal, if anything. On the contrary, the Bible is a category of evidence called special revelation. There is far more evidence than that. Do your research on natural theology. Here are some starters... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=natural+theology http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=natural%20theology You have to look at the evidence or data 100 percent impartially. Of course the Exxon scientist will prove global warming is a joke and the hippy prof will prove the exact opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 "If there is no evidence that would convince you otherwise this means your disbelief is not based on logic." Clay I think he means that if you want include absolutely impossible alternatives in the category of those things you would not believe if evidence were somehow presented, then you are violating logic. It's a word trick. It's like, if god can do anything, how could he lift something that is too heavy for him to lift? As to clay's illogical statement, he over looks that fact that if there is no evidence at all to support belief, then it would be illogical to believe. The reason the is no evidence to CONVINCE a person otherwise is that no evidence exists. So he's not rejecting evidence; the evidence is not there. If there is evidence that supports belief, that's a different question. But, what IS that evidence? You're turn Clay. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 On the contrary, the Bible is a category of evidence called special revelation. ... which is entirely defined by believers. Since "special revelation" can't be checked by impartial observers or measured against known realities, it makes such extremely poor "evidence" that it's not evidence at all, except to those already inclined to believe it. The validity of the Biblical evidence is different from the question raised. I was simply pointing out that there is far more evidence than special revelation, i.e. the Bible. Personally, I do believe the Bible is a valid evidence source and not simply because I'm a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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