Near Death Stuff

[Kris]

Thanks Pandora-- I do appreciate your trying to help!! I also agree with what you have to say-- I seem to get hung up, as I have said before, on the supposed weird stuff-- people coming back with knowledge they shouldn't have, or seeing things in a room while floating around or even having "group" feelings like Voice described. I put this in the science forum because I really wanted to explore possible scientific explanations for these things as a way to help me deal with my fear on this topic.

[pandora]

I don't know about the knowledge-people-shouldn't-have bits, I will have to look into that. I suspect most of them are cases of fraud and overactive imaginations.

 

I do know there are a couple of ERs and operating rooms around the country where the staff has put signs on top of the shelves and machinery that supposedly one having an OBE would be able to see. No one reporting an NDE in any of these rooms has ever accurately described what is on these signs, not even close.

 

I am a little less clear on the group feelings stuff, but I do know that group hallucinations are a described phenomenon explained by human psychology.

 

Anyway, my whole point is really that even if there is such thing as a true NDE, you shouldn't be scared of the implications because they reach across culture and religion, so your particular belief or how you feel about afterlife isn't really going to affect the end outcome of your soul if you are to believe any of the accounts.

[Kris]

And your thoughts about people like Ned Dougherty-- are they just people who got lucky with a few predictions and are now marketing themselves as Christ communicators?

[florduh]

And your thoughts about people like Ned Dougherty-- are they just people who got lucky with a few predictions and are now marketing themselves as Christ communicators?

Ned probably believes he's one of the special chosen ones to receive messages from the Blessed Virgin. Of course, vague and scary predictions aren't too difficult for a professional psychic to pull off; must be a piece of cake for the Blessed Virgin. The two primary cities of government and commerce would be good choices - even terrorists could figure that one out, and did.

 

How brilliant is she? Here:

"I was told that the world could be saved, not by its leaders, but by prayer groups throughout the world. I was told that the prayers of a group of twenty could save a nation from war. I was told that the fate of mankind rested on our ability, individually and collectively, to change the direction of mankind in accordance with God's plan."

So in all of history, there apparently haven't been twenty people praying for peace. Really?

[pandora]

And your thoughts about people like Ned Dougherty-- are they just people who got lucky with a few predictions and are now marketing themselves as Christ communicators?

 

Yes. Our brains can produce all sorts of powerful imagery. He probably believed himself to be rather important and was a bit narcissistic, hence the kind of visions he had. Add a touch of dishonesty and desire to have some fame, well, there you go....

[BMandeville]

Ok-- I am seriously derailing and really need help with this--- no joke!! I was really trying to help myself though my fears of NDEs by actually looking up the main sites around them and unfortunately-- I got on the Dr Raymond Moody site-- and unfortunately came across these supposed prophetic people who had NDEs-- one named Ned Dougherty who supposedly predicted 9-11 six months prior to it happening in a book. He now runs an endtimes website-- which I also unfortunately checked out.

 

Now I am in freakout mode on this-- logically, when I looked at his specific prophecy about 9-11, he had mentioned that there "may" be an attack on New York or DC soon in a book he published in 3/11-- perhaps not such a huge prophecy since terrorist groups had been warning that they would attack the USA and had already targeted New York in 93.

 

But-- it all just scares me--I really need help with this. Voices-- your story about your grandpa scared me too, I am afraid-- what do you think it was? Why do people have these experiences? How do we discount the religious kooks who claim to have direct knowledge from god and supposed proof to bear it out?!

 

I am really trying to cone to grips with this one-- but let a lot of weird gobbledygook in that has set me back. Please don't fluff me off!! I really want some clear, strong help on this!!

 

All I'm saying is, what's more likely: a hallucination brought on by lack of oxygen, or a mystical, astral projection-style journey by the undetectable and intangible "soul" to an afterlife or other-world that nobody's ever seen? Do you see how the latter answer just brings up more questions that in turn can't be answered?

 

If people perceive an NDE, that's great. I'm sure it's real to them, like neuropathic pain or all the DMT breakthroughs I used to do, but such things are entirely subjective and cannot be realistically or practically applied by parties other than the claimant. What difference does it make to us whether or not NDE's are "real"? What does it prove? How would we function and live differently should we accept them not as an existing phenomenon (because they are, in a sense), but rather as they are being told by the claimant? What are we supposed to do, just take some jackass at their word? We'd better start believing in alien abductions if we're prepared to accept NDE's exactly as described by the claimant. Someone's personal experience may be real to them, but if it provides no benefit to us and cannot be measured or quantified, the debate is pointless.

[Kris]

I like what you say but how can we scientifically explain those situations in which a NDE claimant states that he left his body and rose up and could then recount everything that went on in the room while he was supposedly dead or dying-- here are a few of my thoughts--- see what you think:

 

 

The persons brain was still active- so they were hearing things and then subliminally incorporating them into whatever lucid dream they were having.

 

Or, after recovery, they were recounting what they saw to others such as doctors and nurses and embellishments occured, perhaps inadvertently

 

The mind has capabilities to exist outside the physical body but we aren't advanced enough at this point to fully understand this phenomenon-- yet at physical death, this ability also ceases

 

Of course, the last option is that there is some sort of afterlife- but I refuse to believe that the biblical version is the accurate one-- I can't subscribe to the bible god version-- and since not all NDEs express the biblical afterlife, if any NDEs are valid--- everyone has a different version of god, based on what they want to see.

 

Frankly, I would refer to stick to my more scientific options!! Still can't explain the gust of wind in Voice's story though- ????

[BMandeville]

The persons brain was still active- so they were hearing things and then subliminally incorporating them into whatever lucid dream they were having.

 

So they weren't dead. If folklore is to be believed, being dead is pretty much a prerequisite for entrance into the afterlife. Which is it? An afterlife, or something we can access while still alive? It can't be both. Proponents of this nonsense need to define what they're talking about as well as make a decision regarding what they think an afterlife actually is and stick with it.

 

Or, after recovery, they were recounting what they saw to others such as doctors and nurses and embellishments occured, perhaps inadvertently

 

Ever visited a family member who is in a coma? Many times the doctor will tell you that they can perceive what's going on around them (changes in light - the pineal gland, with its own cornea, retina, and lens, can sense light behind closed eyelids - smell, touch, and sound) even if they can't respond. That's why we talk to comatose patients. It's a well-documented phenomenon. Someone saying they were able to sense what was going on around them isn't special, rare, or unheard of at all. Again, it indicates that they weren't actually dead - as if their subsequent recovery weren't enough to tell us that.

 

The mind has capabilities to exist outside the physical body but we aren't advanced enough at this point to fully understand this phenomenon-- yet at physical death, this ability also ceases

 

So what? Does a gap in our own understanding amount to a reason to insert inane and unprovable hypotheses as an explanation?

 

Of course, the last option is that there is some sort of afterlife- but I refuse to believe that the biblical version is the accurate one-- I can't subscribe to the bible god version-- and since not all NDEs express the biblical afterlife, if any NDEs are valid--- everyone has a different version of god, based on what they want to see.

 

There you have it. People in a near-death or hallucinatory state will see what they want to see. It's a bit more complex than that, but that's the general idea. When we dream, suffer from hypothermia, experience a lack of oxygen, become dehydrated, or drop acid, the neurons in our prefrontal cortex fire at random, calling to mind images that are abstract and sometimes nonsensical. Our brain is wired to organize such randomness into something that it can make sense of, which is why we see images that aren't there in the case of hallucinations or complex stories and narratives in the case of dreams. We only dream or hallucinate what we know, as all images must be recalled from memory. Ergo, an NDE for a Christian will have Christian themes and motifs, whereas a similar experience for a Muslim male will likely involve a bunch of virgins.

 

You're absolutely right in that people will hallucinate things that are familiar to them. Nothing takes place in a vacuum; even though I'm an atheist, I may one day have a Christian-themed NDE because of the religion's ubiquity in both our culture and my own personal history.

 

So again, I ask which is more likely? A well-documented and easily explained mental phenomenon, or a subjective, arbitrary, quasi-spiritual experience that is unverifiable and dependent upon modern not-so-well-read-college-freshman mysticism?

 

Frankly, I would refer to stick to my more scientific options!! Still can't explain the gust of wind in Voice's story though-

 

Who cares about a gust of wind? People see and hear lots of things; that doesn't make them true. Not being able to explain something is not sufficient justification for indulging in fanciful speculation to fill in the gaps. Good for you for wanting to stick to scientific explanations. Don't let other people drag you down into their own fantasies and delusions. Such things are the sole affair of the claimant.

[Kris]

Thanks for working through this with me B!!! I do feel better about things now-- I was in panic attack mode earlier today and calming myself was helpful in getting back some clarity. You are right in saying that we can't always explain everything-- but I am one of those people who really likes to try!!

[BMandeville]

Thanks for working through this with me B!!! I do feel better about things now-- I was in panic attack mode earlier today and calming myself was helpful in getting back some clarity. You are right in saying that we can't always explain everything-- but I am one of those people who really likes to try!!

 

Don't mention it. I hear you on wanting to be able to explain everything; it's a wonderful part of being human. When we can't explain something, we should do what you did: look tirelessly for an answer while setting down firm criteria for what we will accept as such. For the more reasonable among us, that means evidence and testability, not fantasy or appeal. I'm glad you were able to calm down. Most of us find the unexplainable frightening, and instead of keeping a cool head and being objective while searching for answers, a lot of people just go with whatever explanation makes them feel better, no matter how crazy it may be. They trade critical thinking and objective truth for emotional satiation. Kudos to you for not falling into that highly attractive trap. It's a daily battle for all of us.

[LivingLife]

Slight hijack.

 

While on this topic, have any of you experienced lucid dreams? I have experienced this a few times and usually as a result of sleep deprivation or fatigue. I would be working and then start daydreaming and have a dream yet still be doing perhaps a mundane task not requiring concentration.

 

This is why I tend to think even the visions people sometime claim to have are all self induced and usually seeded by recent data the brain has accumulated.

[Kris]

Yes-- I have had lucid dreams a few times and they are pretty freaky!! A few years ago I had a thoracotomy and was on major pain medication that really made me have weird dreams and visions for a few days so I can easily see how some of these "visions" could generate!! My daughter has suffered from sleep paralysis when she thinks she is awake and can't move, but is actually dreaming everything. Our minds do a lot of crazy things!!

[LivingLife]

Another thing I experienced as a youth was what I thought was astral travel or even OOBEs. Many times I would have these vivid dreams and have the sensation of leaving my body. The most intense one was one where I simply had a thought of a place an zap, I was there. These all ended with the "rejoining" of my "spirit" with my body in the sensation of gently floating down into my bed. Of course there was never an OOBE or astral travel taking place, it was all happening in my brain.

 

We really only arrive at fully mature brains at age 25ish and with all the learning, hyperactivity we had as youths, it is not hard to see that these types of sleep experiences can occur. Then I also had many dreams of falling in panic and just before you hit the ground, you also have the gentle float down experience.

 

I think this is why younger folk are more susceptible to religion as it really feels like there is a soul/spirit or sorts. These dreams I had vivid recall on and I would imagine it is the same mechanics at work with NDEs and OOBEs.

 

I am also of the opinion that all of these dreams happen in a transition between sleep and waking up and probably initiated by external or body stimuli like needing to go pee and the dream even though it appears to have a long time frame happens in a mere second or milliseconds. We probably dream in REM sleep but I seriously doubt that we can recall these dreams like the near waking ones. This of course is from my own experiences. At 54 my dreams are generally garbage and not worth remembering and even when I can recall, a few days later I can only recall that I remembered the dream but no memories of the dream itself. However, I can still recall dreams from my youth as somehow that got implanted as permanent memories with an asterisk to know they were not real.

[Kris]

Interesting!! I have also had what one could call an OOBE while giving a very important job interview in front of a panel--- I was talking away but at the very same time my brain was also talking to me saying things like--" what are you saying?" "Tell them this" " Aghhhh!!!" And other weird stuff. I would describe it like being on auto-pilot in one part of my brain yet fully aware in another, yet experiencing both at the same time. I ended up doing very well in the enter view, oddly enough!! I don't remember floating around or looking down on my body though.

 

Another thing I remember is having to have a trans-esophageal done-- I was anesthetized but I can remember conversations that the doctors and nurses were having-- I just thought that my anesthesia was wearing off at certain points and never really said anything to them about the experience. Again-- no floating around, but I could imagine them talking and basically where they were at in the room, kind if like when you read a book and imagine the characters

[mymistake]

Now I am in freakout mode on this-- logically, when I looked at his specific prophecy about 9-11, he had mentioned that there "may" be an attack on New York or DC soon in a book he published in 3/11-- perhaps not such a huge prophecy since terrorist groups had been warning that they would attack the USA and had already targeted New York in 93.

 

Con artists are famous for making vague predictions. If nothing happens nobody remembers the prediction was made. But if anything happens that even remotely seems like a hit then the con artist milks it for all it's worth. If God or aliens or whoever knew about 9-11 before hand then why not do something and prevent it? It may happen "soon"? That way if no attack happened they guy is still right because he wasn't sure when he gave the "prophesy". Seems to me like if this was a legitimate case of predicting the future it wasn't very useful. It only serves to make the book writer more popular and get him more money. Do you think the author cares if he scared you? You could fill libraries with prophecy books that made wrong predictions.

[maximumgorilla]

I have had lucid dreams more vividly real than waking life.

 

I think Voice is talking about DMT and Rick Strassman, but his theories were speculative.

 

Still, DMT seems very relevant for future research in these areas of dreams and apparently spiritual experience.

[BMandeville]

I also heard there's a chemical naturally produced in the brain that's like no drug we've made. The guy who talked about it was kind of a freak genius. He knew what it was called, along with a few other things doctors probably don't even know. He said the chemical is released only at times so severe as a NDE and at child birth. I haven't asked any women with kids if they experienced anything like he described yet, maybe someone could chime in. His description was that it would shoot your consciousness to the stars, literally. He attributed this to a viable cause for seeing the tunnel of light and a lot of the common things you hear.

 

 

I think Voice is talking about DMT and Rick Strassman, but his theories were speculative.

 

Still, DMT seems very relevant for future research in these areas of dreams and apparently spiritual experience.

 

Yeah, he's talking about DMT. I hadn't even read his post. There isn't much that's especially "new" or "underground" about it; you can buy it at most STS9 or Tool shows or extract it in your kitchen. Strassman even did more research on it in 2010, which was sorely needed since "The Spirit Molecule" was written in 1992, I think. It's worth a read, but he's a bit biased in his conclusions. The documentary he was featured in from 2010 with Joe Rogen was stupid, mostly because Joe Rogen is an idiot who doesn't understand the difference between conjecture and proven fact. We can't prove that DMT is responsible for dreams, nor can we prove its presence at death or birth; we can only speculate and the only reason we're able to do that is because of the presence of higher levels of DMT metabolites in urine following such events, but even then, those metabolites could be from other normal bodily functions and chemicals. People who think we can measure DMT levels in a person's system at any given time don't understand how the compound works and how quickly it is metabolized. True, that in itself is pretty amazing (especially given the fact that there is an active transport mechanism to allow it to cross the blood-brain barrier), but it gives the chemical a rather evasive quality.

 

I don't know how they feel about recounting past drug use on this site, so I'll decline to share experiences or anything like that. If anyone wants to start a DMT thread, I'll be there.

[Kris]

I guess I an still struggling with the veridical studies- where a person sees things in a room when they should not, etc. I mentioned Dr Rudy's stories-- not sure if anyone watched those videos. I want to know how these can happen? Is it a psychic experience? Is it all just exaggerated memory? Are people using their other senses and then building a story? In order to truly debunk NDEs or to at least provide a scientific explanation, these must be assessed. I know that signs have been placed in rooms where people had NDEs but so far no one has been able to report what the signs say-- that is interesting. What does that say about the other reported veridical stories?

[mymistake]

I guess I an still struggling with the veridical studies- where a person sees things in a room when they should not, etc. I mentioned Dr Rudy's stories-- not sure if anyone watched those videos. I want to know how these can happen? Is it a psychic experience? Is it all just exaggerated memory? Are people using their other senses and then building a story? In order to truly debunk NDEs or to at least provide a scientific explanation, these must be assessed. I know that signs have been placed in rooms where people had NDEs but so far no one has been able to report what the signs say-- that is interesting. What does that say about the other reported veridical stories?

 

Have you seen Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman? There was an episode where they touched on an experiment like this. I don't remember the topic because they have so many interesting topics I can't keep track of them all. But the experiment was to test if an idea could be sent from one person's mind to another based on radiation or magnetism or some other field. According to the episode they had some success with passing simple ideas between isolated people. I think one person was in a dark room and another was looking at a light. Then the one in the dark room started imagining that they were seeing a light. If I figure out who the source was I will provide that in a follow-up or edit. The idea is that maybe we do communicate with others in ways that cannot be detected by our regular senses.

[scatterbrain]

The whole NDE thing has been done in all cultures, I think. Some call it a 'vision quest', for some is a 'lucid dream', for others it's a 'journey' or astral travel.. there's lots of names for it in every culture.

 

Thing about it is, some people can get in and out of these states easier than others, and can wake up with information they may not otherwise have had. But depending on the culture and how the individual sees the world it can be very different between two people. We see either what we 'expect' to see or what our subconscious chooses for us to see at any one time, which could be what we've been taught about the world as a kid, depending on how much we invest in those ideas now.

 

The Bible, heaven, etc has nothing to do with any of it. Unless it's been so indoctrinated into someone that they're afraid to consider other alternatives, (or unaware) and seeing as how the Bible is foremost in lot of minds it makes sense that's what dedicated bible people will see.

 

I had a dream where I went to hell and it was *awesome*. It was a workshop room with sawdust on the floor, and there were computer screens *Everywhere*. The people there (ordinary working people) made crystals. Nobody was tortured or anything like that. After visiting I asked whoever was leading me 'why is that hell? it wasn't so bad' and then I saw something that said 'there were no windows. I couldn't see the sun. I have to see the sun.'

 

And for me this was very true- if i'm stuck in front of a computer or other screens all day (at work especially), I get headaches and stir crazy and need to get outside for awhile. It's just my make up.

 

But there's no way that I think that would be true for anyone else. It just helped me know myself a little better. Which is all these things are- a way for us to know ourselves better. It's about the symbology we use individually and how we relate to it. It can be a very healthy practice to develop the ability to go in and out of these states as long as you remember that (a) this is coming from YOU and ( you ALWAYS have a *choice* to accept what you've been given/told or a choice to reject it, or even test it.

 

That's the part that people have a hard time with. People believe that what has been said is absolute, and *must* be followed at all costs, but if a dream/vision/whatever told you to go hurt someone, would you do it? Hopefully you'll be smart enough to say 'no way'.

 

That's why the whole 'near death' thing for me is merely a continuation of *life*. The closest to spirituality I really get is recognizing that I'm a part of Nature, and no matter whether I'm buried in the ground or scattered ash to the four winds, I'll continue to be a part of Nature after I die, and that's enough for me. It takes the pressure off, and I can be as good a person because I like helping people, not because of some reward. If I get a chance to come back, great, if not, that's ok too. It's out of my control, anyway, and it's not like I'm going to feel it. So I don't fear death, I just fear dying before I'm finished what I want to do here.

[Kris]

Thanks guys-- you have given me good things to think about--I love Through the Wormhole and will try to catch the episode that was mentioned. I have been seriously considering the idea that people can "glom" onto other people's thoughts-- I have had it happen to me, and I jokingly refer to it as a mind meld. Scientifically, could it be that people exposed to stressful situations could have thus perception enhanced an then mistake it for own visions? That would certainly answer a lot of questions without bringing supernatural influence in. We have only tapped a limited area of our brain capacity-- who knows whatever else is naturally possible? That's what I have to hang my hat on.

[mymistake]

I think it was season 2 episode 5 "Is There a Sixth Sense". The idea was that all the electicity going around in our brain and our body creates real electromagnetic field disturbances and perhaps in a very primitive way others can gain something from that field. For example - people seem to be better at knowing when somebody is watching them then pure guessing would allow.

[sdelsolray]

Here is a recent NDE claim from a neurosurgeon:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html

 

Here is a deconstruction of the claim from Sam Harris:

 

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

[Serendipity Rose]

Hey guys-- need your help!! What are your thoughts on people with NDE's? I got a little freaked out seeing a promo for an upcoming Katie show where a doctor, Mary Neal talks about almost dying, finding out she had to return, and that one if her children would pass away-- I looked up her info and she does sound like a kook, but her kid dying was kind of weird-- although she wrote her book after he died. Katie will also have a little boy on who came back from a near death with family knowledge he supposedly shouldn't have. I don't think that this is that kid Colton, who also says he saw heaven.

 

I know most of the general scientific explanations for the typical NDE experiences, but these ones are a bit more difficult for me to logically explain-- what are your thoughts?

 

Were any of you guys Harry Potter fans, or had kids that were? After HP got so popular there was this sudden rush of witchcraft books that came out. It was the "in" thing.

 

A few people got rich quick writing books or talking about their NDEs. Now everyone wants on the band wagon.

[Serendipity Rose]

Well-- what do you think it all means then, Voice? Proof of heaven? Or some other existence after death? It makes me uncomfortable, frankly!! The one thing that I seemed t notice is that there was a lot of variety in the stories, which make tend to NOT believe them. I am thinking that most everything can be explained as actions in the brain but I still struggle with OBEs. I am leaning to them being some sort of psychic thing or possibly that there is enough brain activity for a person to sense what is going on in the room and see it in their mind--- trying to find rationality in this phenomenon. I like to live in the realm of logic-- like Spock!!

 

This is the key.

The one thing that I seemed t notice is that there was a lot of variety in the stories, which make tend to NOT believe them.

 

No one can argue that there is no way there can be an OBE, but what people report that they see or experience during an alleged OBE is probably going to depend on each individuals life experience, hopes, fears, etc.

 

I met a woman a couple of months ago that had an NDE and she had a conversation with Jesus and her dead mother. She was a liberal Christian before and is now some kind of "spiritual advisor" and palm reader.

 

I know another woman who is an atheist who just experienced an NDE about 6 months ago. She said she saw absolutely nothing. Nothingness.

 

I don't know what those things mean. But what I do know is that even hearing a person's first-hand experience does not mean that what they feel they experienced during and NDE was an actual experience. There is as much a possibility that it was all in their mind as anything else.

 

I take personal accounts into consideration and they will remain there, as something to consider, until I experience my own personal account. I don't discount or give credence otherwise. Except in the case where they are making money off of the account, I discount that entirely.