Ex-Christians And Homosexuality

[MultifariousBirdLady]

The bestiality argument is easy to defeat since an animal cannot give consent, but I don't know how to respond to the incest argument. If we support gay marriage, should we also support marriage between consenting family members? Where do you draw the line here? Technically speaking, I'm not aware of laws banning consenting family members from having sex and procreating; the only ban is in the marriage aspect.

I was pretty much going to say something along these lines:

I doubt there's a public interest here unless someone wants to make the case inbred kids are an undue burden on the state.

There are some really important genetic reasons to limit procreation with very close relations.

[Thurisaz]

We have a law on the books punishing incest with jail time here in Germany; it's a purely religious one once you start thinking about it. The only seemingly plausible reason for banning sexual relations between close relatives is the inbreeding --> higher risk of genetic defects thing, and if that's the reason, 1. we must ban not sex but procreation, and 2. we must also ban other relations with such an increased risk, like between people with known genetic defects which are hereditary. The former hasn't happened yet and the latter is not even thought about it. If people thought about it rationally the law would be gone already, but this is not a topic people usually approach with reason.

 

Incest is no reason (for me) to allow an exception from my rule - if all participants are human, adult, and consenting, more power to them.

[pandora]

I am too lazy to look up the source, but in school I remember being taught and shown that incest, at least between two in a family that doesn't have a marked history of incest, rarely turns up genetic defects. The problems start occurring when it happens generation after generation, like with the Amish, and even then the defects and mutations are minor and don't really affect the health of the community.

 

Now, inbreeding cats and dogs is different because we often select for characteristics with initially unknown associated defects or select animals that have a genetic renal disease, or something like that, that does not show up until after the breeding years. For examply, my Burmese kitty Godiva has a specific type of mushy-face. When two Burmese are bred that carry this gene, it is amplified and some of the kittens are born unable to thrive due to severe head malformations. In Scottish Folds, if you breed two cats with folded ears, you get kittens with fatal defects as well. The same is true for many dog breeds. I didn't know about this stuff when I got my kitties, but now that I do, I do not support breeding pets for characteristics that cause defects.

 

I suspect that someday we will be genetically mapped to the point where we might have a sort of eugenics going on, with restricted human breeding to support an ideal healthy human. If I wanted kids, I would care if my chosen mate had some supposed illegal defect that I wouldn't be allowed to breed with... but since I don't want kids, and since I don't think this will happen any time soon, I'm fine letting the medical ethicists (and sci-fi authors) sit around in their ivory towers and debate this all they want. In the end, money will guide all government policy in this area anyway.

[lunaticheathen]

I was never against homosexuals in any way, even when I thought I was a christian. The first time I saw someone get all frothy around the mouth about OMG TEH GAEZZZZ!!! I thought "the fuck is his problem?"

 

I had a very flamboyantly gay ballet teacher as a child. That's how I learned what homosexuality was, and I had no internal issue with it. My problems were with the haters who got all spazzy when they heard who my teacher was (small town) and acted like I was being molested. *giant eyeroll*

 

I think assholes who hate gays for just being gay (for any invented reason) are the real problem. People are individuals, not who they like humping.

[Lilith666]

When I put up a poll on whether to support Chick-fil-A, one heathen did say he was against gay marriage. Some don't like it because they feel it goes against procreation.

 

Right after deconverting, I wasn't sure, but then I figured like you guys did--it's not hurting anyone else, so why should I care? That is so petty. Also, I wanted to irritate biblegod.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

The problems start occurring when it happens generation after generation, like with the Amish, and even then the defects and mutations are minor and don't really affect the health of the community.

 

Well, if you legally allow one brother and sister to do it (for example), then you can't then legally bar their children from doing it.

 

In certain places and times, ruling elites intermarried for generations in order to concentrate power and wealth in one family dynasty, even when the same societies prohibited non-elites from doing so. Eventually the compound defects did have an effect. One well-known example ends with Charles II of Spain.

 

I suppose one might make the argument that families that do this will eventually fall, but that's a helluva burden to lay on the people born with the effects when it could be easily prevented.

[Vigile]

Some don't like it because they feel it goes against procreation.

 

That's a hell of an argument in a world overrun by kids.

[freeasabird]

Some don't like it because they feel it goes against procreation.

 

That's a hell of an argument in a world overrun by kids.

 

It's also an argument that is easily defeated in other ways. We don't have fertility tests as a prerequisite to marriage licenses. We allow the elderly and the opposite sex couples who choose not to procreate get married.

[Dory]

this topic got me on the path of de-conversion. i suppressed my sexuality (lesbian) for YEARS AND YEARS, because i thought god didn't like it. iv just gotten rid of all my religion books and 90% of them were on this issue so I could understand more about what god wanted me to do. I swear it nearly killed me, I deconverted an absolute WRECK, and never felt more worthless in my life. I'm still dealing with latent discomfort in my own skin, but that's because I was vulnerable, naive, and fell for the bullshit hook line and sinker.

 

so glad that part of my life is over. if anyones argument against gay marriage,... or ya know, marriage... is because they find it 'icky', I swear they need a good slap!

[Akheia]

I'm sterilized, and my sweet husband is very nearly infertile (he's been tested and everything). Dang, guess I shouldn't have gotten married.... we've been together about 10 years and just took the plunge last year for the least romantic of all reasons -- insurance and other laws that make being married a lot easier than filing the dozen of forms that only come halfway to replacing marriage. I had trouble with the whole anti-gay thing too while fundie, and this was way before it became such a sticking point for Christians in the West. I parroted the party lines for a while, but when I finally deconverted, that was one of the first things that went out the door with my faith. I'm so glad of it too.

 

I think it takes a while to really decouple from the imprinted craziness of the evangelical movement. We may leave the church building, but getting all that shit out of one's head is a lot harder.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

this topic got me on the path of de-conversion. i suppressed my sexuality (lesbian) for YEARS AND YEARS, because i thought god didn't like it. iv just gotten rid of all my religion books and 90% of them were on this issue so I could understand more about what god wanted me to do. I swear it nearly killed me, I deconverted an absolute WRECK, and never felt more worthless in my life. I'm still dealing with latent discomfort in my own skin, but that's because I was vulnerable, naive, and fell for the bullshit hook line and sinker.

 

so glad that part of my life is over. if anyones argument against gay marriage,... or ya know, marriage... is because they find it 'icky', I swear they need a good slap!

 

Dory, I'm glad you are out and now in recovery from the shame-inducing ideology. It gets better the longer you're out and the more you get back in touch with your real thoughts and feelings.

[owen652]

a politician over here recently used the slippery slope/bestiality argument and got sacked for his trouble, and rightly so; that is just insulting to intelligent people everywhere. In related news, a bill in Tasmania to legalise gay marriage in that state has unfortunately just been defeated in parliament today. Never mind, the momentum is building..

[Akheia]

I'm glad to hear it, owen!