Perhaps An Introduction Is Needed From An "extreme Leftist" Idealogists

[Legion]

I'm not mad. I'm tired.

You give new meaning to the word misanthrope.

 

I generally like people and find them fascinating. In fact, I often have to find time alone because when I'm with others, I immerse myself in them. In order to find my own voice again, I have to find solitude.

[raoul]

For you to call yourself a "liberal" is to sully the meaning of the word.

Care to define the term in order to educate us on what it means? I'm ALL eyes. LOL

 

A liberal believes in individual freedom.

A liberal believes people are capable of handling the responsibilities of life.

 

That's a start I suppose.

I never expected this to be so easy. Individual freedom? Isn't that sorta like what necons and teaparty morons (teabaggers as I call them) rant all of the time? Not that I'm against individual freedom per se but when individual freedom becomes 'rugged individualism where only the strong survive' as is the case in my country then sorry, it then becomes nothing more than a facade for capitalist abuse. Your second statement merely buttesses the first. Sounds like you have a libertarian bent to you. But thanks for the attempt. Now here's my take on liberalism - it's a philosophy which embraces the concept of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for ALL people leaving NO ONE behind.....

[3DollarBill]

]A run for her money? Sorry but no cigar. Challenging a FACT is not giving anyone a run but shows something else which is the reason for the apathy in this country and a reason why corporatists get away with anything.

And I don't think you or anybody else has sufficiently demonstrated any FACTS. You sure can bitch and whine a lot, but back it up with some evidence...I just don't see it.

 

Another funny thing about liberals... you all talk about corporations as "evil" or "greedy" then make fun of the poor ol' Romster for saying that corporations are people. Seems to me you guys are the ones doing the anthropomorphism. (And for the record, no I do not support Romney for president, but that doesn't mean I disagree with everything he says.)

[Legion]

For you to call yourself a "liberal" is to sully the meaning of the word.

Care to define the term in order to educate us on what it means? I'm ALL eyes. LOL

 

A liberal believes in individual freedom.

A liberal believes people are capable of handling the responsibilities of life.

 

That's a start I suppose.

I never expected this to be so easy. Individual freedom? Isn't that sorta like what necons and teaparty morons (teabaggers as I call them) rant all of the time? Not that I'm against individual freedom per se but when individual freedom becomes 'rugged individualism where only the strong survive' as is the case in my country then sorry, it then becomes nothing more than a facade for capitalist abuse. Your second statement merely buttesses the first. Sounds like you have a libertarian bent to you. But thanks for the attempt. Now here's my take on liberalism - it's a philosophy which embraces the concept of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for ALL people leaving NO ONE behind.....

 

Would you say that people can achieve success in life for themselves if they are merely given the opportunity to do so?

[raoul]

I'm not mad. I'm tired.

You give new meaning to the word misanthrope. I say that caringly. Not every fucking person who says they are a liberal or voted for obama is your enemy. People are people.

Actually I voted for him and the night he won the election I cried like a baby - so happy, hoping that he would keep his word. Now I feel like crying because I was such a gullible asshole. I'll probably never vote again unless a viable 3rd party comes along.

[3DollarBill]

I never expected this to be so easy. Individual freedom? Isn't that sorta like what necons and teaparty morons (teabaggers as I call them) rant all of the time? Not that I'm against individual freedom per se but when individual freedom becomes 'rugged individualism where only the strong survive' as is the case in my country then sorry, it then becomes nothing more than a facade for capitalist abuse. Your second statement merely buttesses the first. Sounds like you have a libertarian bent to you. But thanks for the attempt. Now here's my take on liberalism - it's a philosophy which embraces the concept of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for ALL people leaving NO ONE behind.....

 

The only way NO ONE gets left behind is if NO ONE gets ahead. Catering to the lowest common denominator is not ok.

[raoul]

]A run for her money? Sorry but no cigar. Challenging a FACT is not giving anyone a run but shows something else which is the reason for the apathy in this country and a reason why corporatists get away with anything.

And I don't think you or anybody else has sufficiently demonstrated any FACTS. You sure can bitch and whine a lot, but back it up with some evidence...I just don't see it.

 

Another funny thing about liberals... you all talk about corporations as "evil" or "greedy" then make fun of the poor ol' Romster for saying that corporations are people. Seems to me you guys are the ones doing the anthropomorphism. (And for the record, no I do not support Romney for president, but that doesn't mean I disagree with everything he says.)

What fucking planet are you living on? Haven't you seen the crap they've caused on regular working stiffs over here? The 2 TRILLION that they're hoarding instead of investing in America - any comment about that? Isn't that evil intent? Oh, I guess for an apologist it;s considered 'good business' acumen right? They are fucking evil. I know because I worked in the corporate world for decades and all they wanted to do was make an 'excessive' (keyword - excessive) profit at the cost of people's living standards and lives. I've seen lives destroyed by them without a thought on their part. Jobs eliminated merely to INCREASE the bottom line. Decades ago there was a implied moral agreement between them and workers. IE - if you gave them a good day's work and some loyalty, they would ensure you had a job practically for life. Now it's basically fuck the worker but give out incredible money to CEOs. It's so bad over here that CEOs from other countries shake their head and are amazed. Example - a few years ago a Japanese auto exec lamented about the disparity between CEO pay and worker's wages. He said that he would be embarrassed and even ashamed to be compensated on that level. M. Scott Peck, a psychiatrist who wrote extensively on evil defined it as 'the destruction of hope'. Corporations have done that to our workers and to me they are evil. And people who support them are...well I'll refrain from saying it but I believe you get the drift.

[raoul]

I never expected this to be so easy. Individual freedom? Isn't that sorta like what necons and teaparty morons (teabaggers as I call them) rant all of the time? Not that I'm against individual freedom per se but when individual freedom becomes 'rugged individualism where only the strong survive' as is the case in my country then sorry, it then becomes nothing more than a facade for capitalist abuse. Your second statement merely buttesses the first. Sounds like you have a libertarian bent to you. But thanks for the attempt. Now here's my take on liberalism - it's a philosophy which embraces the concept of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for ALL people leaving NO ONE behind.....

 

The only way NO ONE gets left behind is if NO ONE gets ahead. Catering to the lowest common denominator is not ok.

You know what? Please take your libertarian garbage somewhere else because it's a sick joke based on unachievable goals.. And Ayn Rand was a complete asshole too. I read most of her works and studied her insane philosophy. I found it as lacking as Christianity. Almost forgot something - you and Legion oughta get a room. ROFL

[Legion]

Are you going to try and answer my question Raoul?

 

I was civil enough to try and answer yours.

[raoul]

Are you going to try and answer my question Raoul?

 

I was civil enough to try and answer yours.

Sorry, I didn't realize I was obligated to answer everything you've posited including absurdity. Case in point - your question ended with the assumption 'if everyone is given the opportunity'. And THAT is EXACTLY what Jensam, me, and others have been screaming about. YES, if everyone did have the same chance - no problem - I'd be waving the flag myself. But in this country they are NOT. Haven't you heard about the one percenters over here? See, this is the problem with people like you who don't even live here but expound on things you are clueless about regarding us. For the majority of people over here the doors are CLOSED and have been for decades. If I were inclined, which I'm not since it would be a waste of time, I couild tell you stories about the stock market over here and my experience with the way the markets REALLY work. When they say 'free markets' I wanna throw up because it's all fixed and rigged in favor of the very few upper rich. Just like everything else here. You have to have lived in oiur shoes for decades to see what has happened. You have not but yet feel compelled to issue forth god knows what.

I hope I answered your question....

[Guest Valk0010]

I never expected this to be so easy. Individual freedom? Isn't that sorta like what necons and teaparty morons (teabaggers as I call them) rant all of the time? Not that I'm against individual freedom per se but when individual freedom becomes 'rugged individualism where only the strong survive' as is the case in my country then sorry, it then becomes nothing more than a facade for capitalist abuse. Your second statement merely buttesses the first. Sounds like you have a libertarian bent to you. But thanks for the attempt. Now here's my take on liberalism - it's a philosophy which embraces the concept of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for ALL people leaving NO ONE behind.....

 

The only way NO ONE gets left behind is if NO ONE gets ahead. Catering to the lowest common denominator is not ok.

Teaching those to fish who don't know how to fish is not catering to them. Just continually giving them fish is.

[jensjam]

I do know what Free Market Capitalism and I see destroying our election system! There is the idea of free markets which Canada and Western europe enjoys and we people get rich and successful WITHOUT crushing the middle class. Thanks to citizens united which made "money"=to "Free Speech" we are seeing this country fall apart and the working poor/middle class be crushed. We are seeing people struggling to put food on the table clothes on their back and buy medicine forget about having money to enjoy life-i.e. vacations, entertainment etc.

 

Look at how much people are willing to spend this election to win.

 

Apparently you don't, else you wouldn't be whining about "free markets" and "citizens united" in the same sentence. One is an economic system (and also the natural state when you leave out the government) and one was poor judgment on the part of the Supreme Court.

 

I do understand how the issues become muddied though..."free markets" is often the talking point when somebody is trying to push any right wing agenda. Those people don't really know what it means either. An actual free market system is actually pretty tough on those corporations you so despise. The bailouts which occurred in the auto and banking industries were not market capitalism, that was socialism. Market capitalism would have allowed companies which are inefficient and incompetently run to die so that new people with new ideas could have a shot.

 

That's true. I just thought... You know the old joke about assumeing you make an ASS out of U and ME. My bad for thinking one could have a diverse thought and be able to state it without all this.

You come on here talking public policy, then lets do it. As you said in your intro, you're a fighter. So don't get all pissy when somebody wants to give you a run for your money.

 

I'm not getting pissy. I figure this thread would let people know where I stand. I however won't get involve in Petty arguements attacking me personally and not a TRUE debate on the issues.

[raoul]

Legion...ignore your critics. They do not define you...only you do. Continue to speak.

I seem to remember cheney telling bush that same thing... LOL

But spoken as a fellow libertarian I suppose, right? (Based on your description)....

[jensjam]

Jensjam, you're a tool. Like a shovel.

 

For you to call yourself a "liberal" is to sully the meaning of the word.

 

Okay... how do I sully the name? How does this idea you have of me contribute to the debate? You want to say I am a shovel. I'll use that as nickname with PRIDE

[jensjam]

That's true. I just thought... You know the old joke about assumeing you make an ASS out of U and ME. My bad for thinking one could have a diverse thought and be able to state it without all this.

You come on here talking public policy, then lets do it. As you said in your intro, you're a fighter. So don't get all pissy when somebody wants to give you a run for your money.

So true.

 

Having the freedom to express an opinion includes the freedom of others to express their opinion too. There's no freedom of opinion if only one side is allowed to express them.

 

I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to express themselves I just didn't realize it would be more insults than real debate. Silly me for forgetting my "Think Skin".

[Guest Valk0010]

Politics is just mental masturbation just a interesting method of understanding society like it is for me. However it gets religious for some.

[Legion]

Raoul, I am going to overlook your sarcasm and disrespect, but please don't mistake that for lack of noticing it.

 

YES, if everyone did have the same chance - no problem -

 

What do you think of the idea that those who use opportunities to the maximum benefit of all, are given even more opportunities? And what of the idea that those who squander opportunity, fewer opportunites are provided to them?

[raoul]

Raoul, I am going to overlook your sarcasm and disrespect, but please don't mistake that for lack of noticing it.

 

YES, if everyone did have the same chance - no problem -

 

What do you think of the idea that those who use opportunities to the maximum benefit of all, are given even more opportunities? And what of the idea that those who squander opportunity, fewer opportunites are provided to them?

I believe YOU began this sordid journey by denigrating lefties (which I am proudly one of) and actually comparing their alleged extremism to that of the far right wing. If it weren't for lefties throughout the world, NOTHING would be changed. But enough of the political speech. You, once more, make a question which is slanted in a way to your own bias. To wit: 'use opportunities to the MAXIMUM benefit of all (caps used for emphasis)'

And once more, THAT is exactly what they are NOT doing in my country! The elite, 1 percent are using opportunities that ONLY they get to benefit a MINORITY of people - other super rich people like them. Nothing they do benefits the regular, ordinary American which you obviously have NO knowlege about. And amusingly, you once more shoot yourself in the foot with the rest of your question in which you ask my opinion about those who have squandered the opportunity and should have fewer ones offered to them. To wit:

1. the poor and lower middle classe in this country, as I and others have attempted to show you and the other libertarian type person, 3dollar, DON'T get those opportunities on any level as you and he suggest they do. but MORE importantly

2. Yes, there WERE people who'd done that very thing - squandered opportunities. They're called bankers, hedge fund managers, et.al. Did they have future opportunities closed off to them? Or did they get BILLIONS of dollars in bailouts which ordinary Americans are excluded from?

 

Another example of these so called opportunities you seem to think are open to all Americans. A billionare businessperson in this country is able to get billions in loans with practically NO interest or less than 1%. I remember one such person actually bragging about it, saying "I could get 1 or 2 billion tomorrow at practically zero percent interest. But what would I do with it? I have no interest in investing it"

 

Now, regarding the regular working stiff in my country - do they get the same offers? Answer - no. I consider myself lucky in that I have a credit card which charges 13% interest but for the average person, he/she is lucky if they can get an offer of 18% interest or more.

 

Now, what was that you were exclaiming about? And regarding my lack of respect for you, I plead GUILTY. It's hard to have respect for someone I have contempt for because he continuously posits premises pulled out of his posterier with NO empirical evidence to support bleatings. Now, unless you have something intellectually and/or empirically cohesive to add to this discussion, I am through with you. I have NO time to teach someone the basic facts about what is happening in my country. Just go back in this thread and read the dozens of other member comments which support Jensjam's and my views.

[raoul]

And for anyone else interested - regarding those 'nasty' lefties.

 

As most of you know or should be aware of, the cops have tried every trick in the book to get those occupy folks to do something which will give the states an excuse to clamp down on them even more than what is being done. There have been numerous news reports of cops beating some of them, at least a while back anyway and other odious actions.

 

Well recently there was an incident, I believe in California, in which the occupy people were going to march across a bridge or something similar. The cops, naturally, came in with overwhelming numbers and attempted to block them by the usual intimidation tactics. However, this time, a couple of groups of people calling themselves 'anarchists', aka: lefties, showed up, positioned themselves between the cops and protesters. The cops, seeing that they were almost outnumbered and that these folks meant business by the way they were dressed with masks and carrying defensive devices, shields and whatnot, BACKED off and allowed the occupy folks to peacefully march.

 

The person who was an eyewitness to this was on Current TV and he ended by saying, "I saw something in the cops' eyes I'd never seen before - FEAR"

 

Now, what's that about lefties again? LOL

[Legion]

Who said anything about money Raoul? I couldn't care less about money. Money for me is like... how do I put this? uh... I don't know how to describe it. It's like government, a necessary retardation.

 

I'm talking about opportunity, in all its forms, with respect to responsibility.

 

But I do agree with you on one note. The U.S. has been grossly and criminally mismanaged by the so called "elite" on both the Left and the Right.

[raoul]

Who said anything about money Raoul? I couldn't care less about money. Money for me is like... how do I put this? uh... I don't know how to describe it. It's like government, a necessary retardation.

 

I'm talking about opportunity, in all its forms, with respect to responsibility.

 

But I do agree with you on one note. The U.S. has been grossly and criminally mismanaged by the so called "elite" on both the Left and the Right.

Okay, I get it - whoever gets the LAST word in, wins? LOL

I'll just zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, oops sorry, I fell asleep reading your latest dodge (I know you didn't say anything about $$$ but I was making a point by using an example). Now where was I? Oh yes, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Legion]

Alrighty, I am satisfied that you have disqualified yourself as a reasonable participant Raoul.

 

You may now have the last word, if you wish.

[raoul]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcBSKWnD3HE&list=UUUKpV1m_1VZc4JjbxhGwl0A&index=1&feature=plcp

[norton65ca]

Raoul, I have been on this site since I deconverted in March, and in that relatively short period, I have learned one thing specifically.

Legion is a consummate wind up merchant of the highest order and despises leftists like Christian despise atheists. Don't take it personally, Just recognize it for what it is. I don't bother responding to his anti left wing bile because there's not a lot of sense in doing so for all the riddles, victim games and rubbish that comes next.

He might very well be a nice guy in "meatspace" but here he's just a broken fucking record, to be honest. I can't be bothered.

Hasta la Victoria siempre.

[Legion]

"Life is a gift, and it offers us the priviledge, opportunity, and responsibility to give something back by becoming more." - Tony Robbins

 

"Life entails suffering. Suffering is caused by craving and clinging. There exists an active way to stop suffering." - Buddha, the first three of the Four Noble Truths.

 

"He who sees pratitya-samutpada sees the Dharma, and he who sees the Dharma sees pratitya-samutpada." - Buddha