Carolorado Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Lilith, I have been a non-believer for so long, but I do remember the stage you are in. I couldn't quite let go of the bible and I couldn't quite get my answers straight to a few true religious scholars. But over time, start reading more of other views. Read the Tao to find peace, not religion, and study science from the rest. Just watch shows on the Science Channel like 'Through the Wormhole' with Morgan Freeman if you are not up on science. My point is, after a while, when you get a more firm grip in sanity --rather than insanity--you will consider the bible as a group of stories passed from generation to generation. And, it is pretty obvious a lot of it is made up. You won't care what the bible scholars say, because they might as well be talking about a cookbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxh0pC6CT7Q What is this? Why won't it play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Archaeology has demonstrated that '>Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole exodus-from-egypt-never-happened'>40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true, there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)? One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer- reviewed, scientifically-responsible sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be aware of it, okay? Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen? I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it. I recommend the book Israel Finklestein wrote on the subject. Unless I am a real moron, a lot of the stuff he shows to prove the exodus didn't happen seems rock solid. Is the book called The Bible Unearthed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Lilith, the link should give you a lot to go on if you're curious about tracking down that info. I can categorically state with the heaviest of emphasis that there has never been a record of thousands and thousands of Jews wandering around the desert. There were forts out there run by their enemies, yet in all their records not one giant horde of Jews has ever been noted. Nor have we ever picked up any archaeological proof of their wanderings--this despite a desert being a nice place to preserve stuff like that. It's certainly not for lack of digging, either. But just remember: BURDEN OF PROOF. It's not on you to disprove them. It's on them to prove themselves to you. I know how it feels when you have those niggling doubts. But Christianity's a supremely manipulative religion. It's had 2000 years to figure out how to package itself best and scare people into converting and staying in the ranks. Shifting the burden of proof is one way they do that, and so is making people second-guess themselves and not trust their own judgment. Learn for your own benefit, but your not knowing every single in and out of Judean archaeology DOES NOT imply that Christianity is true. "I don't know" doesn't mean the other guy wins by default. It's okay for you NOT to know something. It's still on them to prove beyond all doubt that they're right. And they can't. Simply put, the resources just don't exist. Until Christians have some compelling, airtight, peer-reviewed scientific data for their claims, then you may feel perfectly free to disregard their demands. Maybe this is stupid and it probably sounds arrogant, but I want to know everything there is to know about it. I want to be smarter than they are, since they think that the reason people aren't Xians is because they are ignorant of Xianity. It would feel great to make them look foolish, after all the time they spend shoving their crap down other people's throats. I want revenge on X and his minions, I guess. (mwahahahaha...) You are right, though. By arguing with them, I'm letting them control me. Thanks for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Lilith, the link should give you a lot to go on if you're curious about tracking down that info. I can categorically state with the heaviest of emphasis that there has never been a record of thousands and thousands of Jews wandering around the desert. There were forts out there run by their enemies, yet in all their records not one giant horde of Jews has ever been noted. Nor have we ever picked up any archaeological proof of their wanderings--this despite a desert being a nice place to preserve stuff like that. It's certainly not for lack of digging, either. But just remember: BURDEN OF PROOF. It's not on you to disprove them. It's on them to prove themselves to you. I know how it feels when you have those niggling doubts. But Christianity's a supremely manipulative religion. It's had 2000 years to figure out how to package itself best and scare people into converting and staying in the ranks. Shifting the burden of proof is one way they do that, and so is making people second-guess themselves and not trust their own judgment. Learn for your own benefit, but your not knowing every single in and out of Judean archaeology DOES NOT imply that Christianity is true. "I don't know" doesn't mean the other guy wins by default. It's okay for you NOT to know something. It's still on them to prove beyond all doubt that they're right. And they can't. Simply put, the resources just don't exist. Until Christians have some compelling, airtight, peer-reviewed scientific data for their claims, then you may feel perfectly free to disregard their demands. Maybe this is stupid and it probably sounds arrogant, but I want to know everything there is to know about it. I want to be smarter than they are, since they think that the reason people aren't Xians is because they are ignorant of Xianity. It would feel great to make them look foolish, after all the time they spend shoving their crap down other people's throats. I want revenge on X and his minions, I guess. (mwahahahaha...) You are right, though. By arguing with them, I'm letting them control me. Thanks for your advice. You could be the greatest, most well renowned biblical scholar ever to walk the earth. If you're not a believer of the same denomination they are, you're a fool and they are above you. It's futile. You can't enlighten bulbs that aren't screwed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well, there is something to be said for being well-informed and educated about a topic. It's good to know things just for your own sake. Knowing that there isn't any evidence for an idiot's claims goes a long way toward giving one a sense of peace about rejecting those claims. But don't get all confused about the proper place of burden of proof, that's all. It's their job to show me irrefutable proof of their "savior's" existence and proof of there being heaven and hell and a soul and all that. If they can't do that, it doesn't matter how much fancy arguing they do and how much fancy rhetoric they employ, without actual evidence I don't have to worry about them. I put Christians into the same category as any other conspiracy theorist--they have some wild claims and nothing at all to back their claims up, and ignore all evidence that refutes their claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Archaeology has demonstrated that Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole 40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true, there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)? One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer- reviewed, scientifically-responsible sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be aware of it, okay? Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen? I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it. I recommend the book Israel Finklestein wrote on the subject. Unless I am a real moron,a lot of the stuff he shows to prove the exodus didn't happen seems rock solid. Is the book called The Bible Unearthed? yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well, there is something to be said for being well-informed and educated about a topic. It's good to know things just for your own sake. Knowing that there isn't any evidence for an idiot's claims goes a long way toward giving one a sense of peace about rejecting those claims. But don't get all confused about the proper place of burden of proof, that's all. It's their job to show me irrefutable proof of their "savior's" existence and proof of there being heaven and hell and a soul and all that. If they can't do that, it doesn't matter how much fancy arguing they do and how much fancy rhetoric they employ, without actual evidence I don't have to worry about them. I put Christians into the same category as any other conspiracy theorist--they have some wild claims and nothing at all to back their claims up, and ignore all evidence that refutes their claims. A really classic example of where Christian apologists do this, is the resurrection. They try to say, show how the bible leads to proof of a naturalist, non god, explanation for the experiences of the risen jesus. Forgetting that the burden of proof is on them, to say the god explanation is the best one. Of course they will say, ohhh if the new testament is proven reliable that means jesus had to been the son of god. No it only means we have a reliable account of mystical experiences. It doesn't mean automatically we know the cause of their experiences. You need to prove there could be a god, or a god willing to have a son, before you could ever claim the historical record proves that jesus was the son of god or that he rose from the dead. Till then, if the bible is historically reliable it becomes a case of, the skeptic saying the following. I don't know what caused their experiences, but you Christian don't either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverAgainV Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Maybe this is stupid and it probably sounds arrogant, but I want to know everything there is to know about it. I want to be smarter than they are, since they think that the reason people aren't Xians is because they are ignorant of Xianity. It would feel great to make them look foolish, after all the time they spend shoving their crap down other people's throats. I want revenge on X and his minions, I guess. (mwahahahaha...) Oh I soooo feel like this at times Lilith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Lilith666, one thing to keep in mind is the way many Christian arguments are based on assumptions of biblical and traditional accuracy. Just because the Bible and/or Christian tradition claims something to be true does not make it true. For example, the question of what happened to Jesus' body is irrelevant if the story is made up. Questions about the disciples dying for their beliefs is irrelevant if that is made up too. While I do not consider myself to be a Bible expert, I have undertaken the task of writing a very lengthy, detailed letter to my parents explaining many of the reasons why I no longer believe. The 49-page letter covers a lot of Bible and Christian belief topics, and also addresses some apologetics claims. Though I'm just an "arm-chair scholar," I do believe that I have given a lot of good reasons to not believe Christian claims. If you would like to read that letter, feel free to download it from post #13 here: http://www.ex-christ...istian-parents/ By the way, the second Bible category in the letter is "Fabricated Prophetic Fulfillments," where I show how time after time the NT claims of prophetic fulfillments were made up by taking OT texts completely out of context. Others have mentioned that issue in this thread, but I have given a lot of detail to it in my letter, so if you want to read a more thorough treatment of it, then feel free to read my letter. At any rate, good luck in your studies. Take care.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Merck, you've booked my day solid with RationalWiki. Thank you I thought the evidence against the Exodus was already bad, but this page is downright damning. (I love being alive in this day and age. Iron Chariots, RationalWiki, POCM, Freethoughtblogs, Ex-C, there's just so much info out there now.) Valk, love the new icon. It's perfect. As to the evidence around Jesus, it's weird that finding out that Jesus couldn't have existed in the form the NT posits was what led me to investigate further and discover that there's also no evidence for *ANYTHING* in the OT happening. Proving that the NT Jesus even existed would have been at least a nice step for me in affirming my faith at the time; knowing that the evidence is way stacked high against it told me that there was no way in hell this nonexistent "savior" could be God. I thought that of course there was evidence for Jesus. Of course he really existed. Everybody said he really was a real person. But if we were wrong about that, what else could we be wrong about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts