Refuting Evidence For Bible's Truth--Help!

[Akheia]

"Vote for Jesus! He'll do better next time."

[Lilith666]

Archaeology has demonstrated that Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole 40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the

Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true,

there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old

Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)?

 

One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer-reviewed, scientifically-responsible

sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be

aware of it, okay?

 

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

[mcdaddy]

Archaeology has demonstrated that Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole 40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the

Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true,

there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old

Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)?

 

One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer-reviewed, scientifically-responsible

sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be

aware of it, okay?

 

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

 

Jews and Xians have been digging up "Sinai" for 100 years trying to find archaeological proof of the Exodus.

 

How much have you heard of?

 

EXACTLY.

[Guest Valk0010]

Archaeology has demonstrated that Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole 40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the

Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true,

there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old

Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)?

 

One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer-reviewed, scientifically-responsible

sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be

aware of it, okay?

 

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

I recommend the book Israel Finklestein wrote on the subject. Unless I am a real moron, a lot of the stuff he shows to prove the exodus didn't happen seems rock solid.

[Akheia]

Lilith, the link should give you a lot to go on if you're curious about tracking down that info. I can categorically state with the heaviest of emphasis that there has never been a record of thousands and thousands of Jews wandering around the desert. There were forts out there run by their enemies, yet in all their records not one giant horde of Jews has ever been noted. Nor have we ever picked up any archaeological proof of their wanderings--this despite a desert being a nice place to preserve stuff like that. It's certainly not for lack of digging, either.

 

But just remember: BURDEN OF PROOF. It's not on you to disprove them. It's on them to prove themselves to you. I know how it feels when you have those niggling doubts. But Christianity's a supremely manipulative religion. It's had 2000 years to figure out how to package itself best and scare people into converting and staying in the ranks. Shifting the burden of proof is one way they do that, and so is making people second-guess themselves and not trust their own judgment. Learn for your own benefit, but your not knowing every single in and out of Judean archaeology DOES NOT imply that Christianity is true. "I don't know" doesn't mean the other guy wins by default. It's okay for you NOT to know something. It's still on them to prove beyond all doubt that they're right. And they can't. Simply put, the resources just don't exist.

 

Until Christians have some compelling, airtight, peer-reviewed scientific data for their claims, then you may feel perfectly free to disregard their demands.

[Overcame Faith]

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

 

This is an interesting video about the archaeological evidence concerning the exodus. Hint: the Biblical account does not square with the actual evidence.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDDs8HgOZ4o&feature=related

[NeverAgainV]

....Jesus' own disciples were perhaps retarded. They lived with Jesus who taught them his gospel for over three years and yet when he had died and resurrected only three days later, no one could identify him on sight when he appeared to everyone. They had to be told who he was. If that ain't special, what is?....

Thank you so much for reminding me of this HZ!!! I heard that preached in a sermon, reading the verses in the buybull...I remember thinking..."they didn't recognize Jeezus??"

just wow... It was explained away the jeezus was so glorified in this glorified body that people didn't know who he was???

 

I would want to recognize my supposed "savior"...why would he hide himself, to confuse people, to keep people guessing..?

It just makes NO sense, but it does if we see the bible was written by snakes & superstitious & controlling people who were willing

to lie & die for their cultic religion.

 

I used to know the bible better than most in the church cult I escaped...but I tried to put the buybull out of my mind over the years, preferring to fill my mind with worthwhile & positive thoughts.

Too much emotional trauma associated with buybull, but at times I wish I would have kept that thing with all of it's highlighted areas & notes written in it over the years. oh well

[hereticzero]

....Jesus' own disciples were perhaps retarded. They lived with Jesus who taught them his gospel for over three years and yet when he had died and resurrected only three days later, no one could identify him on sight when he appeared to everyone. They had to be told who he was. If that ain't special, what is?....

Thank you so much for reminding me of this HZ!!! I heard that preached in a sermon, reading the verses in the buybull...I remember thinking..."they didn't recognize Jeezus??"

just wow... It was explained away the jeezus was so glorified in this glorified body that people didn't know who he was???

 

I would want to recognize my supposed "savior"...why would he hide himself, to confuse people, to keep people guessing..?

It just makes NO sense, but it does if we see the bible was written by snakes & superstitious & controlling people who were willing

to lie & die for their cultic religion.

 

I used to know the bible better than most in the church cult I escaped...but I tried to put the buybull out of my mind over the years, preferring to fill my mind with worthwhile & positive thoughts.

Too much emotional trauma associated with buybull, but at times I wish I would have kept that thing with all of it's highlighted areas & notes written in it over the years. oh well

I wish I could wash it all out of my head but I had to grow up in a very fundy household and had the babble drilled into my head 24/7. i was a minister before I found my sanity again, sort of, and have had to appologize to people I insulted over Heyzus and for teaching them fairy tales as truth. I never quit saying I am sorry.

[Ouroboros]

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

Supposedly there were 3 million people (with children) walking through that desert for 40 years without leaving any shit-piles, bones of deceased, food remnants, tools, artifacts, ... anything. Imagine if half of New York lived, ate, worked, and took bathroom breaks for pretty the life of one person in those days, and not leaving one single trace of evidence... That's the only miracle that God performed in the desert.

[Suzy]

Archaeology has demonstrated that Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole 40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the

Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true,

there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old

Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)?

 

One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer-reviewed, scientifically-responsible

sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be

aware of it, okay?

 

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

 

Jews and Xians have been digging up "Sinai" for 100 years trying to find archaeological proof of the Exodus.

 

How much have you heard of?

 

EXACTLY.

 

Also one would think there would be trace in Egyptian records of an event where the pharaos army and the pharao himself got destroyed by a divided and then returning water in the Red Sea. Something like that would be a pretty traumatic and memorable event in Egyptian history. Yet, there was not a single record of it ever found.

[Guest Valk0010]

Archaeology has demonstrated that Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole 40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the

Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true,

there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old

Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)?

 

One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer-reviewed, scientifically-responsible

sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be

aware of it, okay?

 

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

 

Jews and Xians have been digging up "Sinai" for 100 years trying to find archaeological proof of the Exodus.

 

How much have you heard of?

 

EXACTLY.

 

Also one would think there would be trace in Egyptian records of an event where the pharaos army and the pharao himself got destroyed by a divided and then returning water in the Red Sea. Something like that would be a pretty traumatic and memorable event in Egyptian history. Yet, there was not a single record of it ever found.

Even if one buys the apologetic that Egypt didn't record defeats for the sake of their theology, one should still expect to see something as described in exodus to have some sort of documentation, even if its just pure spin control and manipulation of the events. But as far as I am aware there isn't even that.

[Overcame Faith]

Lilith, I will address one of the issues you bring up in the OP. I may address others later if you would like. But for now, I want to address the issue of the Messiah being a direct descendant from David and to refute Jesus as qualifying to be the Messiah based on the Old Testament.

 

Let's look at this requirement as expressed in parts of the OT. First, the Messiah must be from the line of David. Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 23:5-6. Second, the Messiah must not just be of the line of David, but specifically must also be through the line of Solomon, David's son (not one of David's other sons, but from Solomon). 2 Samuel 7:12-16; 1 Chronicles 28:5-7. Finally, there must be direct lineage from father to son directly tracing lineage from David to Solomon to Solomon's son then to his son to his son right through to the Messiah.

 

The first problem with Jesus being the Messiah is patently obvious. Even if we accept that Joseph was a direct descendant from David and Solomon, Jesus does not qualify because both Matthew and Luke make it abundantly clear that Joseph was not Jesus' father since Jesus was allegedly born of a virgin and conceived by the Holy Spirit. Jesus fails automatically and with this very first test does not qualify as the Messiah.

 

Even if we get past the insurmountable hurdle of Jesus not being a direct descendant of David through Solomon, the geneology in Luke automatically makes Jesus fail again. If you look at that geneology you will find that it traces the ancestry not from David to Solomon, but from David to Nathan. Another fail based on Luke's geneology.

 

So then let's look at Matthew's geneology and maybe it works despite the obvious problem of Joseph not being Jesus' father. However, if you look at that geneology you will see that Jeconiah is one of Joseph's alleged ancestors. This is another automatic fail for Jesus because Jeconiah was under a curse and thus the Messiah could not pass through his lineage. Here is the passage from which the curse comes:

 

³⁰ This is what the Lord says:

“Record this man as if childless,

a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,

for none of his offspring will prosper,

none will sit on the throne of David

or rule anymore in Judah.”

 

Jeremiah 22:30

 

"This man" was Jehoichin which is rendered also in the Hebrew as Jeconiah.

 

So any way one looks at it, Jesus did not qualify as the Messiah because (1) he was allegedly born to a virgin and thus not a direct descendent of David through Solomon; (2) under Luke's geneology Joseph did not descend through Solomon; and (3) through Luke because of the curse on Jeconiah (aka Jehoichin).

 

And that's just part of it. There is a lot more reasons why Jesus could not have been the Messiah as prophesied through the OT. The Jews have seen through the charade of the gospels and that is why they, as a people, utterly and totally (and correctly) reject Jesus as the Messiah.

[merck]

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

 

Not only is there no proof that they didn't wander the desert for 40 years, there is no evidence the Jews were even enslaved in Egypt. In fact, there is evidence that the people that built the pyramids were actually well payed for their work. Also there is little evidence that King David even existed. Most of the proof people point to are some coins, but the earliest date for old David is about 800 BCE (though it was probably closer to 1000BCE) and the earliest coins were 700BCE. And even if he did exist, he was probably more of a tribal leader than a king over a large empire.

 

Here is a link to profmth's youtube channel. His series on "Jesus was not the Messiah" and "Did the disciples die for a lie?" series are really good.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/profmth

[NeverAgainV]

Deuteronomy 34:5-7 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to his day no one knows where his grave is. Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone.

 

Did Moses write Deuteronomy? how could he have written about his own death & burial?

[Akheia]

The problem also with Jesus is that if the Exodus never occurred, if the Jews were never really slaves to begin with, that invalidates the entire ten plagues thing, which invalidates Passover.

 

The Bible, out of all other religions I can think of, rises and falls based on history, based on real events. Without a real Garden of Eden, without an Adam and Eve, the whole idea of original sin is invalidated. Without the plagues of Egypt, there's no point to having a Passover. Without Jesus' real birth, there's no sin sacrifice. Without a human sacrifice and resurrection, there's no real redemption. Going the liberal route, as most Jews and many Christians do, allows you to see these concepts as metaphorical, but that robs them of a lot of their immediacy and puts you face-to-face with the philosophical concepts themselves, which aren't much better: why DO humans need to placate such a barbaric God at all if there's no real original sin and no real redemption?

[Ouroboros]

Lilith666, also consider that Moses supposedly heard God's voice in the burning bush telling him that no one had know God's name "YHWH before. God is telling Moses that not even Abraham knew God's name was YHWH. But if you read in about Abraham and his story, he knew that name and even more, he named a city after the name YHWH (which is crazy, since we're to assume that the name is too holy to be spoken). The stories are just a bunch of stories. The oral tradition of telling stories as history and with miracles etc were the movies of that time. They didn't have movie theaters or TV, but they could tell fanciful stories.

[NeverAgainV]

Lilith666, also consider that Moses supposedly heard God's voice in the burning bush telling him that no one had know God's name "YHWH before. God is telling Moses that not even Abraham knew God's name was YHWH. But if you read in about Abraham and his story, he knew that name and even more, he named a city after the name YHWH (which is crazy, since we're to assume that the name is too holy to be spoken). The stories are just a bunch of stories. The oral tradition of telling stories as history and with miracles etc were the movies of that time. They didn't have movie theaters or TV, but they could tell fanciful stories.

Well said!

[Shrek7]

Can anyone come up with something to counter these? I need biblical scholars, though anyone else's opinion is good too.

The messiah would be born in Bethlehem: "but thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel..." -Micah 5:2. X claimed to be king and was born in Bethlehem.

 

Have you found any works by biblical scholars? I'm just curious to know where you are looking. Tim Callahan has two very good introductory books, "The secret origins of the Bible", and "Bible prophesy, failure or fulfillment?" Together they help to answer many of the questions you have.

 

For example, your first question is about the "prediction" that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. Callahan starts by explaining the narrative of the Nativity. The story we are all familiar - with the wise men, the angels, and the birth in a manger - is actually completely missing from two of the four caconical gospels. It is only included in Mathew and Luke, and he explains the inconsistencies with each version, and with recorded history. The Romans never required a census that would have forced Joseph and Mary to have traveled to Bethlehem in the first place, so obviously at least parts of the story are completely made up. Who would do that? And why? Those answers are more complicated, but you can probably imagine the gist of it. The authors of the gospels were trying to legitimize the claims about Jesus, and what better to do that than to make sure the "official" story matched up with the "prophesy". Many of the so called prophesies about Jesus are of this variety. But to really appreciate the whole story, you need to do some background reading.

 

Hope that helps. Have fun.

[Akheia]

Hi Shrek! I've seen some of that first book you recommended. There's definitely a lot of history that Bible believers don't know (and indeed cannot know, for the sake of their faith). Welcome to the board!

[♦ ficino ♦]

Archaeology has demonstrated that Jericho was completely abandoned long before the Old Testament had it being destroyed by the Jews. Nor did that whole 40 years in the desert thing really happen. And that's all before we start to wonder if the

Adam-and-Eve myth could possibly be true (if natural selection is true,

there's no damned way). There. We've just disproven three of the Old

Testament's major myths. How many others will we debunk if we dig into it (hint: ALL OF THEM)?

 

One last thing. DO NOT let them shift the burden of proof. It is upon THEM to prove their fairy tales to YOU, not for YOU to refute their fairy tales. I'm writing all this for your benefit, so you know for your own self why their fairy tale is false and not to be trusted. But don't let them worm out of proving their ideas true using peer-reviewed, scientifically-responsible

sources. It sounds like you may be allowing them to do that, so just be

aware of it, okay?

 

Where did you hear that the Hebrews' 40-year trip through the desert didn't happen?

I am trying to prove to myself that Xianity isn't true. Since I spent so much time believing that all non-Xians will go to hell, I still have tiny, nagging doubts, even though I know it's ridiculous. As long as some people are going "Glory hallelujah, praise the lord!" I'm gonna try to debunk it.

 

Jews and Xians have been digging up "Sinai" for 100 years trying to find archaeological proof of the Exodus.

 

How much have you heard of?

 

EXACTLY.

 

Also one would think there would be trace in Egyptian records of an event where the pharaos army and the pharao himself got destroyed by a divided and then returning water in the Red Sea. Something like that would be a pretty traumatic and memorable event in Egyptian history. Yet, there was not a single record of it ever found.

When i was a fundy this was explained by saying that the Egyptians only recorded their victories, so they buried the memory of this defeat.

[Akheia]

There might be truth to that idea that Egyptians didn't like to record losses (their leaders were considered gods, and we all know how much people like thinking of their gods as fallible), but even if they hadn't discussed the defeat, there's still the matter of the Plagues having destroyed *EVERYTHING* in their fields from plants to cattle, and all the people's deaths (including Pharoah's son). Nor were the Egyptians the only folks keeping records. We have business contract records and all kinds of stuff from that era. Somehow, nobody caught the various supernatural rains of frogs and locusts, a bloody Nile, the huge famine that would have resulted from the plagues, or the huge numbers of hand-offs in businesses and government posts that would have resulted. Somehow all that shit got totally passed. There's NOTHING contemporary with the timeframe claimed in the Bible for the Exodus that corroborates it.

 

Fun site here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

Has a lot of fun citations at the end to investigate for those who want to investigate more closely.

[Ouroboros]

When i was a fundy this was explained by saying that the Egyptians only recorded their victories, so they buried the memory of this defeat.

That's probably true that they did this, but somehow we do know about the Thebans defeating Heracleopolitan Pharaohs around 2055 BC. I wonder what kind of evidence there is for that loss? It's around the same era as Exodus, I think.

[merck]

When i was a fundy this was explained by saying that the Egyptians only recorded their victories, so they buried the memory of this defeat.

That's probably true that they did this, but somehow we do know about the Thebans defeating Heracleopolitan Pharaohs around 2055 BC. I wonder what kind of evidence there is for that loss? It's around the same era as Exodus, I think.

 

It's at best a hypothesis. One that does not have any evidence to support it. There is no evidence to indicate that they didn't keep or destroyed all the records. In fact, the Egyptians were very meticulous record keepers. This wiki has some good info. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

 

 

Also, if you haven't already, I suggest Robert Ingersoll's book "Mistakes of Moses." You can get it for free if you have a kindle or device with the kindle app. He devastates the entire idea of the plagues, the exodus and many other parts of the first 5 books of the old testament.

[Lilith666]

 

Yes! McDaddy makes a great point. Try to read the "prophesies" in their context. Most of them,

you will realize, were in no way talking about a

coming Messiah. And the "fulfillment," where the prophesy is quoted in the NT more than

likely is quoting the prophesy out of context - or

using an inferior translation of the OT.

 

Look up your specific concerns at infidels.org or at the Skeptics Annotated Bible I'll bet you'll find all the

answers you need withing a few minutes.

 

Thanks. I read the Bible a lot, but I'm far from

an actual scholar. I need the extra help.

 

Stop reading the bible, and start reading books on critical biblical scholarship. Bart Ehrman is a

favorite, an while I disagree on some points, he

def knows what he's talking about.

 

I like to read the Bible so the Xians can't tell me anything about it that I don't know. Then when I am the well-informed skeptic and the X-lovers do not know their own book, I can claim skepticism is better. I hate it when biblical scholars tell me little-known facts about Xianity that I can't prove aren't true. They make me look like I don't have perfectly good reasons not to

believe and I feel ignorant.

[mcdaddy]

That's cool. Knowing both is good.