Looking Forward To Nothing

[Guest Valk0010]

In defense of what Valk0010 is saying:

 

When I was a kid, I asked my Mom what heaven was. She said: "Imagine the most beautifuly things you can. Well heaven is one hundred times better than that."

 

People who say heaven is crap are imagining it as crap, that's all. To me heaven is, by definition, a lot better than anything you can experience on earth.

 

I was brought up to see the world as crap (like probably most of you). I have trained my mind very well to see everything around me as big-time crap. All of the best experiences I have had in this world have turned out to be deceptions. ALL OF THEM! Exactly like my religion predicted. Nothing even comes close to the beauty of what I can imagine. I am very happy for people who can really enjoy this life, I really envy you, I wish I was like you. But I'm not. I can imagine a lot better. Maybe I have too much imagination. I don't get a kick out of smelling flowers (no reference to Margee's post here). Glad for you if you can.

 

Sorry if all of you guys' spiritual experiences were crap. Mine were out of this world blissful. My only desire is to find this bliss again, either in this world or the next. This is what keeps me alive. I call it heaven and I believe in it because I have seen a glimpse of it. I wish I had not, maybe then I could enjoy the things of this world.

 

I feel like a heroin addict. I want my drug back. I can pretend that I don't but I know, deep down, I do, I really do and I want it to last forever. Without this, I suffer. This is the plain truth.

 

Switching out of defense mode.

That is a big reason why I miss the comfort of religion. I miss feeling that everything will be better. I miss that trust. Dare I say I miss the faith aspect. I can't believe, but a big portion of me wants too.

[TrueFreedom]

The questions that I was asking may be too personal. I'm happy to try to help if asked. I hope that you find a way out of your funk.

[Denyoz]

I can relate somewhat, but I have to wonder if you guys are spending too much time isolated in your homes.

 

Deny: remind me of the situation with your wife. Is she a believer? Would you be happier as the primary or at least a contributing bread-winner?

 

I'm a stay-at-home dad. My wife is not a christian by any definition except her own. God is not part of our lives, that's for sure. Of course I spend too much time isolated in my home. When I go out I like it so much I don't want to come back! People say I'm burning out, that I need time off. If I go away for a week I'm afraid I will never come back (I'm serious). Can't do this to my family (like ex-God did to me), I would hate myself for it. Would I be happier as the primary bread-winner? Good question. I don't know. Probably yes. I don't think my vocation (if such a thing exists) is to take care of children. But everyone says I'm good at it.

[TrueFreedom]

Deny: Have you considered putting the kids in childcare or school and going to work? It seems to me that you really need a change, at least until you achieve a more positive state of mind. Sometimes a change, for better or worse, is enough to make a huge difference. Don't do anything stupid, but make a move!

[openpalm45]

Deny: Have you considered putting the kids in childcare or school and going to work? It seems to me that you really need a change, at least until you achieve a more positive state of mind. Sometimes a change, for better or worse, is enough to make a huge difference. Don't do anything stupid, but make a move!

I very much agree. You need a change, my friend.

[TrueFreedom]

A baby step might be to plan some field trips. First thing in the morning, take everyone out for an adventure! A zoo, a museum, a job interview! Maybe just a movie or an ice cream! Go feed the ducks!

[openpalm45]

Or find a parenting group. It might do you some good to be around real life adults.

[Denyoz]

Deny: Have you considered putting the kids in childcare or school and going to work? It seems to me that you really need a change, at least until you achieve a more positive state of mind. Sometimes a change, for better or worse, is enough to make a huge difference. Don't do anything stupid, but make a move!

 

Ha! My wife and I have even considered putting the kids out for adoption, can you imagine! But they only take abandoned kids and we can't abandon them. We're not THAT evil.

 

About me going back to work, there are many problems with that, but it's not totally impossible, but almost.

[TrueFreedom]

Deny: Start a business! Mow lawns! Paint addresses on curbs! Sell junk at the flea market/swap meet (I've done it all)! You've got to move it, move it!!!

[TrueFreedom]

I hope that you find work that works for you.

[Denyoz]

Deny: Start a business! Mow lawns! Paint addresses on curbs! Sell junk at the flea market/swap meet (I've done it all)! You've got to move it, move it!!!

 

Ha! ha! TrueFreedom. Now you are in contradiction with what your profile photo says.

 

Seriously, if I add one more "thing to do" on my list, I will collapse and die.

[TrueFreedom]

Well, you might have to drop something in order to do something else...

[Vigile]

wow again, I am surpised at the optimism here.

 

Gosh you guys must be smart enough and healthy enough to exist. Oh boy, another accomplishment I can't seem to figure out.

 

Mr fuck up I am.

 

Again Valk, you're only 21. That's just a baby as far as I'm concerned. At your age I was stuck in a dead end job and was just as miserable as you claim to be.

 

No one is saying you need to be like the shiny happy people. You don't need to see the glass half empty either. There are other ways to see the world and your current limitations don't have to limit you forever. A life worth living can take time and hard work to achieve, but you have your youth and that means you have the time and energy to take it on. Quite frankly, I don't have my health or the energy to do more at this stage of my life. You have an advantage here whether you think you do or not.

[Vigile]

People who say heaven is crap are imagining it as crap, that's all. To me heaven is, by definition, a lot better than anything you can experience on earth.

 

I agree with that and I dreamed of a heaven that sounds similar to your own.

 

When I deconverted I actually mourned the loss of it. That's probably what's happening with you now. Unlike loss of a loved one though, I completely got over the loss of heaven and could really give a shit now. I don't recall how long it took me to get to this stage. Perhaps a year or more. It's been 20 years now.

[openpalm45]

People who say heaven is crap are imagining it as crap, that's all. To me heaven is, by definition, a lot better than anything you can experience on earth.

 

I agree with that and I dreamed of a heaven that sounds similar to your own.

 

When I deconverted I actually mourned the loss of it. That's probably what's happening with you now. Unlike loss of a loved one though, I completely got over the loss of heaven and could really give a shit now. I don't recall how long it took me to get to this stage. Perhaps a year or more. It's been 20 years now.

I've been mourning the loss of god. Not in a relational sense, because I didn't really feel connected to him (no matter how hard I tried), but more so losing someone who always works everything out for good and is going to take care of me. That is a difficult and scary thing to lose. I'm on my own now.

[florduh]

My wife and I have even considered putting the kids out for adoption, can you imagine!

No, I can't imagine. It's disgusting. Grow up before it's too late for your kids to have any chance at a normal life.

[blackpudd1n]

 

My wife and I have even considered putting the kids out for adoption, can you imagine!

No, I can't imagine. It's disgusting. Grow up before it's too late for your kids to have any chance at a normal life.

 

Yeah, I'm struggling with this, too. I can't fathom how someone can think it's a good idea to have not just one, but two kids, and then talk about getting rid of them later on.

[mcdaddy]

I can relate somewhat, but I have to wonder if you guys are spending too much time isolated in your homes.

 

Deny: remind me of the situation with your wife. Is she a believer? Would you be happier as the primary or at least a contributing bread-winner?

 

I'm a stay-at-home dad. My wife is not a christian by any definition except her own. God is not part of our lives, that's for sure. Of course I spend too much time isolated in my home. When I go out I like it so much I don't want to come back! People say I'm burning out, that I need time off. If I go away for a week I'm afraid I will never come back (I'm serious). Can't do this to my family (like ex-God did to me), I would hate myself for it. Would I be happier as the primary bread-winner? Good question. I don't know. Probably yes. I don't think my vocation (if such a thing exists) is to take care of children. But everyone says I'm good at it.

 

I was basically a SAH dad like you for a couple of years, after I failed out of pharmacy school. I just started working full time as an accountant and yeah, it does make me feel better to bring in some money, albeit only 1/4 of what the wife

Makes. It's just natural. Plus I get to socialize a little bit at work and that's good.

 

Things won't be that way forever guys.

[Denyoz]

My wife and I have even considered putting the kids out for adoption, can you imagine!

No, I can't imagine. It's disgusting. Grow up before it's too late for your kids to have any chance at a normal life.

Yeah, I'm struggling with this, too. I can't fathom how someone can think it's a good idea to have not just one, but two kids, and then talk about getting rid of them later on.

 

Actually the adoption thing was my 8-year-old daughter's request.

 

She kept saying that she wanted new parents who would let her do everything she wants. So I said: "Ok, we can put you up for adoption if you want, and you'll get new parents. Would you like that?" She said yes. Then my 6-year-old son shouted: "Can I go too?" I said: "Ok, I'll call them tomorrow and see how we can do it." (I wanted her to think seriously about what she had just requested.) So the next day I looked into it to see how adoption works. They only take kids who have been abandoned by their parents. So that's what I told my daughter, and since it was winter, I said: "We can't abandon you on the street, you might freeze and die, and what if you get parents who are worse than we are?" She was disappointed, but accepted it. At least she was happy to see that we had tried.

 

The whole discussion was quite amusing and my children learned something from it. Don't be so dramatic, and stop blaming the parents. Kids are not "little angels". And we love them far more than they love us.

[Denyoz]

Study bass, once you can play well enough, study piano, then trumpet, then tenor saxophone...

How did you know I loved bass? And I did study piano. This reminds me of this song I created a couple months ago: I Don't Know - by Denyoz

Great tune! What studio you use?

 

Thanks Midnite! I used Magix Music Maker MX.

[florduh]

And we love them far more than they love us.

Really want that "Father of the Year" award, don't you?

 

I need to leave this thread. Bye.

[asanerman]

...

When I was a kid, I asked my Mom what heaven was. She said: "Imagine the most beautifuly things you can. Well heaven is one hundred times better than that."

 

People who say heaven is crap are imagining it as crap, that's all. To me heaven is, by definition, a lot better than anything you can experience on earth.

.....

Sorry if all of you guys' spiritual experiences were crap. Mine were out of this world blissful. My only desire is to find this bliss again, either in this world or the next. This is what keeps me alive. I call it heaven and I believe in it because I have seen a glimpse of it. I wish I had not, maybe then I could enjoy the things of this world.

 

I feel like a heroin addict. I want my drug back. I can pretend that I don't but I know, deep down, I do, I really do and I want it to last forever. Without this, I suffer. This is the plain truth.

 

Switching out of defense mode.

 

As I read this Denyoz I sense the faint and vital beat of a heart, deeply mired in a "flat land" existence. Pay attention to "that." Stay "open" to the "cadence" of that beat.

 

"Openness is the precondition for disclosure, and its opposite, closed-ness, is the ground for concealment." So say the Existentialist.

 

One can choose to live authentically (true to one's own personality, spirit, or character) discloses, or one can choose to live inauthentically--not listen to what our lives are disclosing--How am I suffering? What "becomes" me--unties me?

 

You've heard this "line" before. My issue has always been "feeling" what I understand in my gut--(as limited as that understanding is, and as unknown and strange as it may seem to the "authorities,"--those "experts" who supposedly hold the "plan" for which to live).

 

Need I mention all the -isms and -ologies that "suck us in" with their promises! We all are contorted and many times victimized by those "golden chains," Whether they be secular or religious.

 

You've heard this "line" before--it's enough to dive one "mad."

 

If a body is "stable," that is, has no "overwhelming" heath issues--is alert, and functional; the freedom to chose exists. There is no less freedom in the one choice (to be authentic) than in the other (not to be), although, consequences are radically different.

 

"Whoever authors your story [life] authorizes you actions. We gain personal authority and power in the measure that we question the myth that is upheld by "the authorities" and discover and create a personal myth that illuminates and informs us," says Sam Keen. (The word myth here is used in its purist sense. He's not talking about a lie or fabrication, mistake, illusion ~Your Mythic Journey 1989). We live our lives surrounded by our stories (myths) of how life is. We "see" everything through our stories (Jean-Paul Sartre).

 

How's the Myth of Progress working for you?--The Myth of Hope?

 

By providing a "view" myth explains, implies consensus, sanctify an order, authorizes maps. Myths are the -isms and -ologies we live by--creatively or destructively. Buried within our Myth are our "theory and/or fact"--the truths--The Truth and The False, The Facts and The Speculation--our Heaven and our Hells, of which only we can decide.

 

I guess, that in that sense, the stories we tell and those told to us, help us "judge" whether life is "a beach" or "a bitch," and to what extent.

 

How is your personal story animating and informing you? How is it a "killing field?"

 

What would an "integral consensus" say? My hunch is you are in the midst of "finding out." And the "disrepair" maybe in managing the "load" you've consciously or unconsciously loaded onto your wagon--the to-dos of life, the "thrown-ness" of it all . A lot of what one decides has its roots in that "cart load." That load reflects prior decisions both the affirming and the toxic.

------------

 

Your mom's explanation came from a deep "archetypical" place within her own unique story. A story, I dare say, that is interwoven in the human fabric of all of us, to some degree--our desires, dreams, wishes, hopes.

 

She was not telling you a "lie" but a "story" of who she, in her "innermost," is. I share with her that Myth of Hope, but "cradled" in a different saga with different words and structures of which are just as limited and flawed--just as human--just as sacred. Notions just as "pregnant" with possibility as they are "latent" with futility, hopelessness, and impracticable --just as dangerous and as "innocent."

 

...I call it heaven and I believe in it because I have seen a glimpse of it. I wish I had not, maybe then I could enjoy the things of this world....I can pretend that I don't but I know, deep down, I do, I really do and I want it to last forever. Without this, I suffer. This is the plain truth.

 

As I read this I'm inclined to reflect on something Abraham Maslow spoke to in his book The Father Reaches of Human Nature, 1971. In this posthumous work Maslow cautions against those who might exalt the "peak experience" as a end in itself or might turn away from the "world" in a romantic search for the Sacred.

 

"The great lesson form the true mystics....that the sacred is

in

the ordinary, that it is to be found in one's daily life,

in one's neighbors, friends, and family, in one's own backyard, and that travel may be a

flight

from confronting the sacred--

this lesson can easily be lost."

 

"....Plateau experiencing can be achieved, learned, earned, by long hard work,,,,,A transient glimpse is certainly possible in the peak experiences which may, after all, come sometime to anyone, But so to speak, to take up residence on the high plateau...that is another matter altogether, That tends to be a lifelong effort.

 

Seems as if Maslow, after recovering from a near-fatal heart attract set about to re-think his contributions to personality theory--(his story). His "Theory Z" postulates a degree of healthiness more "fully human" than any he had described before. But that's just "his" option (act of choosing) !

 

At bottom, what's yours!

 

Is it killing, you to "know," for yourself?

[Denyoz]

I can't fathom how someone can think it's a good idea to have not just one, but two kids, and then talk about getting rid of them later on.

 

Sorry blackpudd, I didn't appreciate your comment at first, but it got me thinking: why did I have four kids, what was I thinking?

 

I remember. I was a Christian. We were using the natural birth control method called Serena, the only one (besides abstinence) accepted by the Catholic Church at the time. The method is almost 100% effective if you follow it by the letter. Every day, my wife had to check whether of not she was fertile, and then let me know, and we only had sex when she was not fertile, as we had agreed.

 

I trusted her and I trusted God. She failed to check and she told me she was not fertile when in fact she was, and she got pregnant. First child.

After the birth of our first child, we didn't have sex for about a year. I had lost trust in her. One day, I got home from work, she raped me. I should have defended myself but I didn't. I just let her do what she wanted (more or less enjoying it) and she got pregnant again. Second child.

 

Then divorce.

 

Second marriage, second wife, still a Christian (but starting to have doubts). We both didn't want kids. She was on the pill and intended to stay on it for the rest of her life. She got pregnant while on the pill (she said). I suggested an abortion but she didn't even want to consider it. Now following this, there was a series of events and coincidences, which I thought were miracles, and led me to believe that God wanted us to have children. I accepted because I didn't want to anger God. Third child (ten years after the birth of the second one).

 

Because of the age gap, we didn't want this kid to be alone, so we decided to have a fourth, so they could play with each other. Fourth child.

 

My severe depression was diagnosed 5 months later. Lost faith in everything.

 

As a Christian, I always thought children were a blessing. It was my fault, I was stupid. Now I live with the consequences.

 

But I tell myself: "Hey, this is cool, I have four great kids, I'm lucky, it's fun, I'm living life to the fullest, this is probably what I wanted deep down, blah blah blah." But on some days, the positive thinking doesn't work and negativity takes over.

[freeasabird]

We were using the natural birth control method called Serena, the only one (besides abstinence) accepted by the Catholic

Church at the time.

 

This seems strangly like these Jewish sabboth products I've learned about recently. Like using technicalities to get out of god's supposed law. Oh the things religious thinking does to you.

[Denyoz]

I also remember my vocational options as a catholic boy:

 

- get married and have kids, or

- become a priest, or

- remain single and fall into temptation.

 

I chose number one. In retrospect, I think any of the two other options would have been better.