Number One Reason For Not Believing?

[Zaphod]

That milk-jug analogy at GodIsImaginary.com.

[Guest Valk0010]

Hypocrisy regarding war.

 

When I was a young'un, we in the USA had a terrible problem called the Vietnam syndrome. This was caused by the public revulsion for war and especially getting out asses run out of Vietnam on a rail, and caused by most americans being disgusted by the idiot proposition that we should just nuke all the de-humanized Vietnamese to hell. The Vietnam syndrome lasted from approximately 1975-1992.

 

So in this time, Christianity was shoveled down my throat in rather a totalitarian manner. I was made to memorize the ten commandments and attend sunday (brainwashing) school and church every week which was horribly traumatic for me since I had to miss reruns of Star Trek. But I was a good soldier and did as I was told.

 

During this time I came to really love and appreciate the anti-war philosophy of religious people like Martin Luther King, Phil and Daniel Berrigan, Father John Dear and Father Roy Bourgeois (who is still trying to close the school of the americas).

 

Then 1992 came around and Bush 1 who was elected in a racist campaign that mobilized the vote of "Christians" in the Republican party. Then the campaign (built on lies - whoa surprise there, no?) to launch a murderous blood and guts theater of gore and butchery festival in Iraq. And in this time all the good fundy christian folks I knew, who shoved the ten commandments down my throat until I gagged, they did absolutely nothing, swallowed the kool-aid, sat on their asses, shut their mouths and watched as several thousand Iraqis were killed using weapons purchased with American tax dollars.

 

To put it mildly, I was horrified and pissed off that I would be subjected to these 10 rules and then watch as all the "good" christians I knew just pissed the all down the drain in full public view. I watched Billy Graham up in the White House with Bush 1 "praying" for peace (praying to Satan?).

 

The whole situation was so traumatic and disgusting to me that my view of church and the doctrine was destroyed utterly. When I brought up the hypocrisy, no christian i ever met wanted to talk about it.

 

I ended up eventually hooking up with some African Americans who had the only church with guts to call BS on the war.

Since my family are a bunch of hillbilly closet racists, they were mystified and horrified that I would stoop to this level.

They criticized me to no end. From then on my course was set.

 

So I started to feel that Religion was all about inducing trauma and fostering denial.

I was traumatized first by having the doctrine shoved down my throat, second by the denial and hypocrisy about war, third by racism. And even after that things just got worse and worse.

 

I think the Gulf war was a nessesary event to maintain peace in the middle east, and yes i think some things where unnessesary like the highway of death but most Iraqis where treated kindly and given full quarter. Saddam was a madman who shot those at his own table and invaded kuwait to maintain his oversized army that he was going to latter use to invade Saudi Arabia now. he killed his own people by the thousandes and im sure by his phsycology he would of killed people by the hundreds of thousands in the lands of others. War is a horrible thing and must be avoided but when you are dealing with a person who thinks his own death is his own gain diplomacy has failed.

 

I kinda follow Christiphor Hitchens opinion on Sadam.

My view on Iraq. Right idea, wrong timing. We didn't have the resources to do the job properly, so we shouldn't have done it.

[Kaiser01]

All our efforts in Iraq and Afgahanstan have been poorly planned but doing nothing in my opinion would of been far worse, i mean leaving a mad man to create a new middle east empire and own our oil? I think not.

[Guest Valk0010]

All our efforts in Iraq and Afgahanstan have been poorly planned but doing nothing in my opinion would of been far worse, i mean leaving a mad man to create a new middle east empire and own our oil? I think not.

The ONLY reason we went into afghanistan was revenge. It would have existed like it did for 30 years or more. It was a middle east somalia in the most critical light.

 

The ONLY reason we went into Iraq was it was a manufactured threat, and bush wanted to spread US empire, sure it could have even been trying to get nukes. But that in 2003 would have made it not much different then pakistan. If anything we should have left Saddam in power, because that would have kept Iran in check from trying anything stupid. But anyway, if you want to debate this, maybe a different thread would be called for.

 

And the own our own oil, bit, if shit got thick and the oil thing was a question, they would drill in alaska in a heartbeat.

[★ Citsonga ★]

the bible

 

Same here.

 

I'll third this one. After years of reading and studying the Bible in order to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and to "always be prepared to give an answer," I finally started seeing the inconsistencies and problems that I had been indoctrinally programmed against. Contradictions between the Gospels started my doubting, but what really sunk the ship was studying the so-called "christological prophecies" and realizing that time after time after time the New Testament takes quotes from the Hebrew Scriptures (aka the Old Testament) completely out of context in order to fabricate fulfilled prophecies. Nobody with a true story to tell would need to stoop to such underhanded tactics. I was familiar with the "dual prophecy" or "double meaning" patch-work apologetics, but I could see right through the charade. Christianity is a myth, plain and simple, and all one has to do to see it is to study the Bible objectively.

 

So, while there are other good reasons given in this thread that have further solidified my disbelief, it was the Bible itself that opened my eyes.

[Kaiser01]

All our efforts in Iraq and Afgahanstan have been poorly planned but doing nothing in my opinion would of been far worse, i mean leaving a mad man to create a new middle east empire and own our oil? I think not.

The ONLY reason we went into afghanistan was revenge. It would have existed like it did for 30 years or more. It was a middle east somalia in the most critical light.

 

The ONLY reason we went into Iraq was it was a manufactured threat, and bush wanted to spread US empire, sure it could have even been trying to get nukes. But that in 2003 would have made it not much different then pakistan. If anything we should have left Saddam in power, because that would have kept Iran in check from trying anything stupid. But anyway, if you want to debate this, maybe a different thread would be called for.

 

And the own our own oil, bit, if shit got thick and the oil thing was a question, they would drill in alaska in a heartbeat.

 

Saddam was no better than Ahmadinejad is and in fact he might of been far worse. I geuss you could say that they could keep each other in check by some mini cold war but Iraq dominated Iran after the Iraq-Iran war, hense the reason for invading Kuwait. I dont support most of Bushes policys incuding an American empire but that madman needed to be stoped in the first gulf war, the second invasion was not really nessesary. We should be working with other nations on these problems rather than building an American empire about it.

 

Also the oil companies dont want to drill in the united states becuase that would lower prices making less profit.

[Guest Valk0010]

All our efforts in Iraq and Afgahanstan have been poorly planned but doing nothing in my opinion would of been far worse, i mean leaving a mad man to create a new middle east empire and own our oil? I think not.

The ONLY reason we went into afghanistan was revenge. It would have existed like it did for 30 years or more. It was a middle east somalia in the most critical light.

 

The ONLY reason we went into Iraq was it was a manufactured threat, and bush wanted to spread US empire, sure it could have even been trying to get nukes. But that in 2003 would have made it not much different then pakistan. If anything we should have left Saddam in power, because that would have kept Iran in check from trying anything stupid. But anyway, if you want to debate this, maybe a different thread would be called for.

 

And the own our own oil, bit, if shit got thick and the oil thing was a question, they would drill in alaska in a heartbeat.

 

Saddam was no better than Ahmadinejad is and in fact he might of been far worse. I geuss you could say that they could keep each other in check by some mini cold war but Iraq dominated Iran after the Iraq-Iran war, hense the reason for invading Kuwait. I dont support most of Bushes policys incuding an American empire but that madman needed to be stoped in the first gulf war, the second invasion was not really nessesary. We should be working with other nations on these problems rather than building an American empire about it.

 

Also the oil companies dont want to drill in the united states becuase that would lower prices making less profit.

Not really true. The Iran Iraq War was a stalemate unless you by state propangda. Oil companies don't want to drill here, because the enviromental movement has thrown up a stink for 30 years about alaska. Worse, then Ahmadinejad, when, 1980. Saddam was not a relevant threat of any worse shape then Iran today in 2003. We didn't hear of mass genocides akin to darfur in Iraq in 2002. He was no worse then burma in that regard, in 2003. It was absurd. To say, we got to kill our economy to get this guy that wasn't really even that much of a threat.

 

I refuse to argue for a war, using other people's blood, unless it was 100 percent neccesary. We didn't need to go into afghanistan or Iraq when we did. We should have appealed to the international community with total honesty in both instances. Iraq should have followed the same path of serbia, but no we are too prideful, so we have to do it ourselves. In fact as far as 9/11 goes, we had muslims support, with clerics coming out and saying, that Bin Laden had no theological right to issue fatwa's and that he was a crank. Yet because we have a ego, we rather drop bombs, then appeal to sympathy. In fact that famous seen of celebration of 9/11 that we saw that day, It was a recycled piece of footage, from iirc, the first intifada.

[Akheia]

I have to say I genuinely think that Dubya charged in there like he wanted sparks to come out purely because his daddy did something similar back in his reign. After 9/11, we wanted a holy war, and he gave us one.

[RankStranger]

This really deserves its own thread.

[Guest Valk0010]

This really deserves its own thread.

I agree, but kaiser didn't start one, some blame him.

[RankStranger]

This really deserves its own thread.

I agree, but kaiser didn't start one, some blame him.

 

Not blaming- just saying it would be an interesting discussion.

 

Although it could be a pretty big topic- not sure how you'd frame it. Maybe just start with Wrester's post as an opener?

[hereticzero]

My number one reason for not believing is the OT prophet Jeremiah who claimed the law was a pack of lies never given to Moses, especially the law of sacrifice. That made the Christian concept of jesus as a perfect sacrifice a moot point, was never god incarnate, never god himself, nothing in prophecy is about jesus. The jews were lead by their noses by the priests and scribes.

 

 

(Jer 7:8) Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot do any good.

 

(Jer 7:22) For I did not speak to your fathers, nor command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

 

(Jer 7:24) But they did not listen, nor bow their ear, but walked in their own plans, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.

 

 

(Jer 5:31) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

[bdp]

It isn't true.

[mcdaddy]

My number one reason for not believing is the OT prophet Jeremiah who claimed the law was a pack of lies never given to Moses, especially the law of sacrifice. That made the Christian concept of jesus as a perfect sacrifice a moot point, was never god incarnate, never god himself, nothing in prophecy is about jesus. The jews were lead by their noses by the priests and scribes.

 

 

(Jer 7:8) Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot do any good.

 

(Jer 7:22) For I did not speak to your fathers, nor command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

 

(Jer 7:24) But they did not listen, nor bow their ear, but walked in their own plans, in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.

 

 

(Jer 5:31) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

 

HOW THE HELL DID I MISS THIS?!?? I mean I've read (most) of Jeremiah before, but damn. It went right over my head!

 

Well actually now that I think about it it does sound familiar, but I never completely put 2 and 2 together. How is Jeremiah part of the OT when he's saying "the OT" is bullshit?!?! Are the jews that fucking careless with their own bible??

 

They have a guy, IN THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES, saying the scriptures are bullshit!?? PRICELESS!!! bwahahahahaha

[atkegar]

For me, what we have learned in Science, from Galileo to Newton to Darwin to Einstein (etc), makes the older ideas of God imposible.

[Ro-bear]

God is too much like a man for me to worship him. In fact, I've known lots of men more worthy of worship. And of course it makes no sense to believe in a god unworthy of worship. For that matter, I have a hard time imagining a god that would have any interest in being worshipped. It seems to me a god would be way beyond that.

[Paine]

i agree with Ro-Bear/

 

God, as I still think I like to understand him----(still in Deist denial,,,,but working thru it... ) is WAY , WAY bigger than some man in a polyester suit can paint him for me between verses of "I'll Live for Him" and passing the plate...

[Eugene39]

Isaiah 1, Jeremiah 7 and James 1:27 -- very interesting.

[mcdaddy]

Isaiah 1, Jeremiah 7 and James 1:27 -- very interesting.

 

What do you see there? What is interesting about those to you?

[Kaiser01]

This really deserves its own thread.

I agree, but kaiser didn't start one, some blame him.

 

Not blaming- just saying it would be an interesting discussion.

 

Although it could be a pretty big topic- not sure how you'd frame it. Maybe just start with Wrester's post as an opener?

 

Ill start one.

[Guest wester]

I think the Gulf war was a nessesary event to maintain peace in the middle east,

 

The Kingdom of Kuwait was slant drilling across its border with Iraq and was stealing the Iraqi's oil.

Would "peace in the middle east" then include allowing Kuwait to thieve another country's resources? And insist that Iraq stand down while their livelihood and sovereignty is being undermined?

 

and yes i think some things where unnessesary like the highway of death but most Iraqis where treated kindly and given full quarter.

Like the 500,000 Iraqi kids who starved to death (Madeline Albright: "We think the price is worth it.") Like littering their country with so much depleted uranium that 2/3 of the American soldiers in country filed for disability?

 

Saddam was a madman who shot those at his own table and invaded kuwait to maintain his oversized army that he was going to latter use to invade Saudi Arabia now.

 

Bollocks. See above. Furthermore, in Iraq's 10 year war with Iran, the 'madman' was America's #1 ally.

 

he killed his own people by the thousandes and im sure by his phsycology he would of killed people by the hundreds of thousands in the lands of others. War is a horrible thing and must be avoided but when you are dealing with a person who thinks his own death is his own gain diplomacy has failed.

 

You are channeling a fantasy full of projections and rationalizations. The standard line that spills from yur TeeVee every hour of every day of the year. As they might say at WIKIPEDIA, Citations please.

Using "Would have" ..... you are attributing motive of which you have almost no knowledge, a shortfall for which you should not be blamed too harshly since this is the standard modus operandi of 'murkan media.

I don't know why I am even wasting my energy to type things like this since I know viscerally that nobody in America gives a rat's bung chute about any of it.....and especially don't give two hoots about no dang brown people who aren't smart enough to live in 'murkah and don't have the decency or intelligence to speak english. Don't rain on my party, buddy. What are you, some kinda commy freak? Murka loveitorleaveit. Ya whatever. I have heard it endlessly for as long as I can remember.

 

Life of Illusion:

youtube.com/watch?v=_tiOMu_Bf8Q

[shadesofgray]

For me the biggest reason for not believing is a toss up between the realization that I've never actually experienced or even observed any evidence whatsoever of god's existence and the fact that hell is the most morally repugnant and reprehensible doctrine in the world. First, I realized that my faith in god was rooted entirely in my trust in what other people claimed about god but that I can only ever know what I actually learn and experience firsthand. God was never actually real for ME, and I was exhausted from trying to live out other people's faith in my own life. And second, once I started making non-Christian friends in college, I could not accept that god would send them to eternal damnation for nothing more than thinking the wrong things. I don't know which of these was the strongest reason, but they're what I keep coming back to when I look back at my deconversion.

[Kaiser01]

I think the Gulf war was a nessesary event to maintain peace in the middle east,

 

The Kingdom of Kuwait was slant drilling across its border with Iraq and was stealing the Iraqi's oil.

Would "peace in the middle east" then include allowing Kuwait to thieve another country's resources? And insist that Iraq stand down while their livelihood and sovereignty is being undermined?

 

and yes i think some things where unnessesary like the highway of death but most Iraqis where treated kindly and given full quarter.

Like the 500,000 Iraqi kids who starved to death (Madeline Albright: "We think the price is worth it.") Like littering their country with so much depleted uranium that 2/3 of the American soldiers in country filed for disability?

 

Saddam was a madman who shot those at his own table and invaded kuwait to maintain his oversized army that he was going to latter use to invade Saudi Arabia now.

 

Bollocks. See above. Furthermore, in Iraq's 10 year war with Iran, the 'madman' was America's #1 ally.

 

he killed his own people by the thousandes and im sure by his phsycology he would of killed people by the hundreds of thousands in the lands of others. War is a horrible thing and must be avoided but when you are dealing with a person who thinks his own death is his own gain diplomacy has failed.

 

You are channeling a fantasy full of projections and rationalizations. The standard line that spills from yur TeeVee every hour of every day of the year. As they might say at WIKIPEDIA, Citations please.

Using "Would have" ..... you are attributing motive of which you have almost no knowledge, a shortfall for which you should not be blamed too harshly since this is the standard modus operandi of 'murkan media.

I don't know why I am even wasting my energy to type things like this since I know viscerally that nobody in America gives a rat's bung chute about any of it.....and especially don't give two hoots about no dang brown people who aren't smart enough to live in 'murkah and don't have the decency or intelligence to speak english. Don't rain on my party, buddy. What are you, some kinda commy freak? Murka loveitorleaveit. Ya whatever. I have heard it endlessly for as long as I can remember.

 

Life of Illusion:

youtube.com/watch?v=_tiOMu_Bf8Q

 

You need to calm the fuck down, this is rational discussion not ad hominem attacks. I find it insulting that in the last part of your past you claim i dont care about the "dang brown people." and im a slave to the media or some stupid unsuported shit.

 

I dont agree with much of what the united states did, all i agree with is the removal of Saddam from power and at least the attempt to establish a stable democracy. What you really think letting Saddam jsut take over Kuwait would of been the best solution? Yes Kuwait should of been reprimanded for stealing oil, peace in the middle east would of ment Saddam working with the international community rather than jumping the gun and not killing his own people.

 

This has been moved to irs own topic.

[openpalm45]

My answer is very similar to shadesofgray.

My reason(s) would be that if bible god wanted me, he could have had me. I sought him so incredibly hard, for as long as I could, and got nothing back. So either he is a dick, or he is not real.

Also, like sog said, I realized that my faith was dependent on what other people had said, and theirs was dependent on what other people had said to them.

I also realized that christianity was incredibly unhealthy, and was inhibiting me from being a free, happy, healthy person.

And, again, I could not accept that very good people I knew were going to hell just because they didn't believe the right thing.

[Positivist]

Years of unanswered prayers and seeing bad things happen to good people on a continuous basis. I couldn't keep turning my head the other way or make excuses anymore.

TW, my first step away from faith was when I stopped making excuses for God. I used to always cover for him and come up with trite reasons why he was reneging on his many promises (promises right outta the Bible, no less!!). I stopped making excuses for him and the whole thing unraveled.

 

Just sayin, I hear ya! And.....here we are....