par4dcourse Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 What would be beyond a finite universe? Just beyond the last bits of matter and energy? An "out of bounds" marker? Or in another sense, what did the big bang bang into? Is the vacuum emptiness of space infinite and available for matter and energy to appear and make a universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I can't really understand a universe that isn't infinite. How do you even picture "before the beginning of the universe"? To me, it always existed and always will exist. It is infinite backward and forwards. I understand there was an event called The Big Bang, but that says nothing about what was there before, nor does it eliminate the possibility of other universes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I can't really understand a universe that isn't infinite. How do you even picture "before the beginning of the universe"? I tend to agree Deva. What sense does "before the beginning of time" make? What sense does "A location outside of space" make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I am glad you agree, Legion. I have some problems visualizing infinity, but its worse to imagine a beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I have some problems visualizing infinity, but its worse to imagine a beginning. Infinities are very strange things. The history of mathematics bears witness. Many, including me, struggle with it. And I don't know if it can be vizualized; it may be only capable of being conceptualized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 What would be beyond a finite universe? Just beyond the last bits of matter and energy? An "out of bounds" marker? Or in another sense, what did the big bang bang into? Is the vacuum emptiness of space infinite and available for matter and energy to appear and make a universe? I've thought about this a lot. It seems science is finding out that even "empty space" still has "something in it". So "nothing" or "empty space" does not exist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I've thought about this a lot. It seems science is finding out that even "empty space" still has "something in it". So "nothing" or "empty space" does not exist. Or maybe everything is made of nothing, just energy? Just saying. How do we know its not the other way around. It seems like what science is really saying is that deep down, it makes absolutely no intuitive sense right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Everything is relation. Relation is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Everything is relation. Relation is everything. True, But are you saying nothing is something and something is nothing? My head hurts with that logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Everything is relation. Relation is everything. True, But are you saying nothing is something and something is nothing? My head hurts with that logic. I'm saying that "nothing" and "something" only have meaning in relation to other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted June 3, 2012 Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 I have some problems visualizing infinity, but its worse to imagine a beginning. Infinities are very strange things. The history of mathematics bears witness. Many, including me, struggle with it. And I don't know if it can be vizualized; it may be only capable of being conceptualized. I look at infinity as a standard for what can be for example all real numbers are on a infinite chain but numbers 1-10 are a violation of that standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted June 3, 2012 Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 Bang, crunch, bang, crunch, ad infinitum. It is interesting to think that if this was the case then just by statistics i will kill everyone on this website at some point in the future and vis-versa for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skepticalme Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I question if the universe, as a whole, is a legitimate "object" of study. From what vantage are we going to study it? From a very tiny speck in a fraction of it, only studying a small fraction (relatively speaking) of it. However such a definition contradicts what we know about big bang cosmology. We know that the universe had a beggining and that time is a phenomena within the universe. How can a timeline run back to before the big bang? Which is why I'm inclined to believe that our theory for the big bang, what banged, how it banged, etc... is incomplete. The way I see it, either causality is true, or a "first beginning" is not. Or a "first beginning" is true, or causality is not. Not both. "Always", invariably refers to some concept of time, but the universe is larger than time. IMO, I'm inclined to see time as an illusion, something made by people. Also, there is a problem with having a physical time as a dimension, which runs contrary to the concept that the universe has a beginning or an end. Say the beginning is at stage 1, I'm at stage 2, and the end is age stage 3. A stage in this case being a measurement of time. All 3 stages, being a dimension, MUST simultaeneously exist, thereby making the universe always exist. But there's a problem, if it had an absolute beginning, then more information had to have been added, because each stage consists of the same amount of matter (its the same universe,a different time. Just like the 1 inch mark is on the same ruler as the 2 inch mark, but you need double the wood to make 2 inches). The universe had to triple its size to account from going from stage 1 to stage 3. I agree that the big bang theory is incomplete, that is one of the defining principles of a theory. But time being an illusion isn't consistant with what we know. We can measure it to amazing precision, there are atomic clocks that are accurate to within a second over millions of years. The sujective experience of time passing is an illusion, a moment can seem like an eternity and an eternity can seem like a moment; but under that there is a quantifiable property of the universe. As for information being added, the amount of matter and energy in the universe stays the same so the amount of information stays the same, there are physics laws about the conservation of information. When you read a book the quantity of information in it doesn't increase as you read it. It doesn't matter if you are on the first chapter or the last chapter the total information content is constant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I'm saying that "nothing" and "something" only have meaning in relation to other things. O okay lol. I overanalyzed that one. I agree that the big bang theory is incomplete, that is one of the defining principles of a theory. But time being an illusion isn't consistant with what we know. We can measure it to amazing precision, there are atomic clocks that are accurate to within a second over millions of years. The sujective experience of time passing is an illusion, a moment can seem like an eternity and an eternity can seem like a moment; but under that there is a quantifiable property of the universe. As for information being added, the amount of matter and energy in the universe stays the same so the amount of information stays the same, there are physics laws about the conservation of information. When you read a book the quantity of information in it doesn't increase as you read it. It doesn't matter if you are on the first chapter or the last chapter the total information content is constant. In order to have time be a seperate dimension (in the way that height, width, and length are), the universe would either have to be eternal or stuff must be added. Or maybe I misunderstand here. The comparison with the book is a bad one, because when you start the book, the book doesn't come into existance, it was before the story you read began. It will be after you stop reading it. Let me ask you this, when the universe began, had it already ended? Do you believe that the universe will begin even as it ends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skepticalme Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 The biggest problem with a universe that is infinite and eternal is entropy. An infinite-eternal universe would contain infinite matter and energy. The sky would be white day or night being illuminated by infinite stars both nearby and trillions of lightyears away. The temperature of all matter would be infinite, there wouldn't even be a planet. The entirety of the universe would be an infinitely large, infinitely hot plasma. The fact that the universe hasn't reached entropy tells us that a finite amount of time has elapsed since it formed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skepticalme Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 In order to have time be a seperate dimension (in the way that height, width, and length are), the universe would either have to be eternal or stuff must be added. Or maybe I misunderstand here. The comparison with the book is a bad one, because when you start the book, the book doesn't come into existance, it was before the story you read began. It will be after you stop reading it. Let me ask you this, when the universe began, had it already ended? Do you believe that the universe will begin even as it ends? Well, time is a dimension like length, width and heigth, but we don't experience it in the same way as those dimensions. We experience the first three dimensions spacially, you can take an image and see all of it at the same time, there is no beginning or end to the image from this perspective. We experience time temporally, one point at a time. You cannot see the beginning and the end simultaniously because we only occupy one point of time. I'll post a video that helps explain these concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skepticalme Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I'm saying that "nothing" and "something" only have meaning in relation to other things. O okay lol. I overanalyzed that one. The biggest problem with a universe that is infinite and eternal is entropy. An infinite-eternal universe would contain infinite matter and energy. Would it? Matter comes from energy, and what if the void of space was all energy? Certainly, I see a problem. But having an absolute beginning, and having nothing occur prior to the big bang, wouldn't that also be a problem. Another law of thermodynamics seems to have been broken, that matter nor energy can be created nor destroyed. How do we reconcile either a finite or infinite universe with thermodynamics perfectly? There is evidence, if in doubt, for an infinite universe. Its called the "flatness problem". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Well, time is a dimension like length, width and heigth, but we don't experience it in the same way as those dimensions. We experience the first three dimensions spacially, you can take an image and see all of it at the same time, there is no beginning or end to the image from this perspective. We experience time temporally, one point at a time. You cannot see the beginning and the end simultaniously because we only occupy one point of time. I'll post a video that helps explain these concepts. I get that we don't experience them the same nor at the same time. But do you accept that I am still a baby somewhen in time? Or that I am an old man somewhen in time? That somewhen, the future is already happening, and somewhen, the past is still happening? That was my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Blake Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Skepticalme. The idea that time is a dimension comes from maths trying to project itself into the real world or from watching too much Dr Who. Time is a man made measurement we use so we can cope with the world around us. As to an infinite Universe. how many stars can you see that are just one billion light years away? Why should the Universe be infinitely hot if it is infinite in size? Why should it contain infinite matter and energy? Perhaps you mean infinite in density? Why should it be any different from what we see "locally"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexton Blake Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Babylonian Dream. Some believe that the Universe could have come from literally nothing. We see particles come from nothing, complete with gravity, then normally they vanish again. What if they did not vanish but it could take as little as one to stay and become stable, so now the Universe (or rather void) is out of balance so the rest forms trying to balance it? To explain, +1 and -1 = 0. Also +trillion and -trillion = 0. "Nothing" has infinite potential while both sides balance out, with matter and energy being plus and gravity minus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skepticalme Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Skepticalme. The idea that time is a dimension comes from maths trying to project itself into the real world or from watching too much Dr Who. Time is a man made measurement we use so we can cope with the world around us. Distance is a man made measurement. A mile is a unit someone made up, but it still descibes a real property of the world. If you hit a baseball you can calculate the distance it will travel and the time it will land. Both are distances you can experimentally measure. As to an infinite Universe. how many stars can you see that are just one billion light years away? Why should the Universe be infinitely hot if it is infinite in size? Why should it contain infinite matter and energy? Perhaps you mean infinite in density? Why should it be any different from what we see "locally"? If the universe was infinite, the sky would not only be illuminated by stars a billion lightyears away, it would be illuminated by stars 100 billion lightyears away, 1 trillion LYA out to infinity. Infinite size also means infinite age. Given the laws of entropy, the heat death of the universe would have already happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Babylonian Dream. Some believe that the Universe could have come from literally nothing. We see particles come from nothing, complete with gravity, then normally they vanish again. What if they did not vanish but it could take as little as one to stay and become stable, so now the Universe (or rather void) is out of balance so the rest forms trying to balance it? To explain, +1 and -1 = 0. Also +trillion and -trillion = 0. "Nothing" has infinite potential while both sides balance out, with matter and energy being plus and gravity minus. I get that, but there still is a problem. Whether you see it or not. If time is a dimension, and the past and the present are still the present somewhen else, then the universe is still beginning and has already ended. At least if you follow this to its logical conclusion. Does anyone else see this paradox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I believe the universe is eternal, always creating matter and expanding because of the explosiveness. It will never end. Some people claim it will end but i believe it is self-perpetuating. It will never end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I believe the universe is eternal, always creating matter and expanding because of the explosiveness. It will never end. Some people claim it will end but i believe it is self-perpetuating. It will never end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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