I Am So Stupid: I Prayed Today And Guess What? Nothing Happened!

[NeverAgainV]

So I prayed again (see? I told you I was a slow learner ), saying “You know God, this is why so many don’t believe in you. I’m not asking you to heal my friend’s cancer or something big like that. I’m just asking you to bring a dog to my sight line. I'll do the rest!! I just don’t see why it’s so damn difficult to answer the little teeny weeny prayers like this. .....

 

Gawd, I am so stupid.

........Just remember - if you do happen to find the dog, it was YOU who found it, not "god". Don't fall into the "God made this happen in his perfect timing" shit that we all used to fool ourselves into.

 

Total Wreck nailed it. Even if you found the dog, it would have been YOU finding the dog or chance that he came back. It's hard to undo the "God made it happen" thinking that was so much a part of us for all of those years.

 

I am very sorry to hear about your friend & his cancer. I do not understand why this world has so much suffering.

BTW I don't think you are stupid!! I think you are a kind & compassionate person who sure helps me on this forum.

I don't know if any "god" exists, but sometimes I find myself praying too...but I try to end it with a "I will do what I can to change this...." or whatever.

You can probably relate to this during those years of being the dutiful "believer" I prayed & believed...but it seemed it was always my efforts or the efforts

of others or just plain ole chance that would make a difference. Don't beat yourself up because you are wonderful!!

[♦ ficino ♦]

I am very sorry to hear of these three cases of suffering, Positivist (I'm assuming the dog is suffering, but maybe it was adopted by someone else...?).

 

Has anyone plastered nearby telephone poles or whatever with signs? Near me a few years ago I saw signs on telephone poles that a little dog, Harley, was lost. About ten days later he was found cowering in a field and was returned to his overjoyed family.

 

I too had a 28 year old friend with cancer. Everyone was praying, including children at a nearby Episcopalian school who did not know Rod. He died anyway. This was one of the things that prepared me to stop believing.

 

Norton, as a life-long human friend of cats I join KittyPaws in expressing my heartfelt sympathy about Tigger and Ginger. And I join you in disbelieving in a God who, if he existed, sentenced Tigger to such a fate.

 

Akheia, as so often, you are like the poet Horace, writing "what oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed."

[NeverAgainV]

It's probably not the right time for me to suggest a HIPSTER MACRO THREAD, ROLL! derail.......

 

If God's a husband and his followers are the Bride, then I don't understand why the Bride doesn't divorce his ass for being so distant and quiet. I sure as hell wouldn't put up with a husband who never talked, punished me for stuff I didn't even know about and had to figure out on my own was in need of fixing, and tried to "teach" me using the yes/no/wait method God uses on his people. For a friend and lover, he's a piss-poor one.......

Made my day!!! Thanx!!

[mcdaddy]

Here's the thing...you were asking for God to bring the dog to you. Great. So what would you have done if he literally existed and did that? Would you do as so many have said on here, and just chalk it up to your own efforts? If we ask, and it's actually answered, why even ask if we're going to disregard it anyway if it's answered?

[Positivist]

Thanks everyone for helping me unpack my thoughts on this.

 

As for the presence or absence of posters, I urged these acquaintances to do this. However, being of a fundagelical ilk, they place human concerns and needs far above that of their animal kin....so no posters or other efforts.

 

I'm having a hard time not being completely judgmental about why my acquaintance defied all reason and intelligence and let the dog (that barely knew him) off leash. I mean, this guy never listens to anybody and he's not too bright I guess. I feel like severing the relationship entirely (passively) because why should this stupid guy's bad decision cost us all 100s of hours of searching and heartache? I have a day job that takes way too much time and as of last week, a husband who is suddenly very ill and in/out of hospital. I am maxed out but tormented day and night about this dog.

 

I think I am a really evil and judgmental person. I feel way too strongly about animals. I am actually furious at this idiot because I am so tormented about the dog, more than he is.

[Positivist]

...as Carl S posted today on the site, we skeptics are sensitive folks... we care greatly for the suffering of others.

I printed off Carl S's piece because it really hit home for me. I have always been deeply affected by the suffering of others....especially non-human life forms (animals and plants).

 

Part of my problem with Christianity has always been its inherent anthropocentrism. I wanted to be an entomologist, microbiologist, or veterinarian when I grew up. But in my late teens I decided that (based on Christian doctrine) people are more important than animals and plants and microorganisms, so I should work with people.

 

And that's what I did, to great and ongoing psychological peril.

 

As I sat in church, up until my deconversion, I was increasingly tormented by the foundational anthropocentrism: how many people the church is going to trick baptize this year, how to get holier and holier (what I call "spiritual masturbation"), how many babies people can have (who cares if the earth can't support them all!) etc. And at this same time I was on numerous boards and committees related to the environment and animal welfare, and I noticed that on all of these committees/boards, there were no believers. At first I thought there was something wrong with me for not wanting to go to a indoctrination session / spiritual masturbation session Bible study.

 

And it dawned on me one day while sitting in church that I was different from most Christians: I am ecocentric, not anthropocentric. I see humans as part of a bigger system, not as rulers of it (the word "dominion" has always made me want to puke). I believe very strongly that we need to value other beings and the earth, not just humans. I believe animals are sentient beings equally entitled to life on this planet. I am passionate about animal welfare, the environment, and responsible/sustainable urban design. When I see a tree cut down I physically hurt inside. When I see an animal suffering I am spurred to action--immediate and lasting.

 

Sometimes I hate being me. But at least I 'get' why I don't fit in in the church.

 

Thanks everyone for your kindness. I am so thankful for Ex-C dot net.

[asanerman]

OK, I admit it: I prayed yesterday.

I felt like an idiot. I certainly am a s-l-o-w l-e-a-r-n-e-r. But I had to try.

Gawd, I am so stupid

 

I can't make intellectual sense of pray. I only catch myself doing it!

 

It's as though my spirit of love, of sorrow, of outrage, of hope mingle and I utter a cry into the deep and empty darkness!

 

Like Sam Keen says, as much as my mind rebels against prayer, my spirit cannot not abide living in a world where science and self-sufficiency are the last word.

 

I catch myself crying out into the darkness when things are falling apart.

 

And I catch myself rejoicing into the darkness when things come together.

 

I'm a flicked sort of fellow. This makes no sense at all when I know from experience that there is no "out there" to listen!

 

Lately I come to understand that what I'm "doing" is connecting with the vividness and the reality of my experiences, whether it be of joy or of pain.

 

I've rediscovered the practice called tonglen, in Tibetan: tong means "sending out" or "letting go" and len means "receiving" or "accepting."

 

I've given up traditional praying for tonglen.

 

In its essence the practice of tonglen is, when anything is painful or undesirable, breath it in.

 

If you think about it, tonglen is the practice of actually breathing one's self into what all beings feel, what beings have felt and what beings will ever feel. It is a way of not only connecting with my own consciousness but with the consciousness of every being that has ever lived, is living and will ever live.

 

That is to say, instead of shouting into the empty darkness we have occasion to connect not only with our own experience but with the experience of all beings.

 

I read the following in Pema Chodron’s book Start Where You Are:

When he was eight years old, Trumgpa Rinpoche saw a whimpering puppy being stoned to death by a laughing, jeering crowd. He said that after that doing tonglen practice was straightforward for him: all he had to do was think of that dog and his heart would start to open instantly. There was nothing complicated about it. He would have done anything to breathe in the suffering of that animal and to breathe out relief. So the idea is to start with something like that, something that activates your heart.

 

So you think of a puppy being stoned and dying in pain and you breath that in. Then it is no longer just a puppy. It is your connection with the realization that there are puppies and people suffering unjustly like that all over the world. p.42

 

Authentic compassion does not die! It does not experience “burn out.”

 

By the same token, when we feel some sense of delight--something inspiring, relieving, relaxing I can breath it out, give it away, not unlike Akheia’s status this morning:

 

A walk in the park to watch the new ducklings learn to swim. Got a new tea to try. Made a baked Brie, roasted garlic, homemade Tuscan bread, tart apples to chase, and curled up with my man to watch a Bruce Campbell movie. I'm not sure life gets better than this.

 

Although I do not know your 28-year old acquaintance dying of cancer or your canine friend, I do know what it’s like to feel abandoned.

 

I’m acquainted with the grief of standing at the boundaries of another’s life not being able to do anything but shout into the deep impending darkness!

 

My heart breaks!

 

Compassion, kindness and courage are vital here. They give us the resources to be genuine about where we are and to know that life is always in transition-- that the only time is now in which we can express our appreciation and love to another being-- and that the future is completely unpredictable and open!

 

No, I don’t pray anymore. It’s a criminal waste of my time!

 

 

saner

[Guest end3]

I don't know P. The love you feel for the dog and the person with cancer may be God in action. I can't help but think that somehow something knows the good that is done in love. Blessings to you for your efforts. I don't know that I would give up praying.....even if it may be just you.

[Akheia]

That was pathetic. It could have been.. But it also could be just her being a good person and caring about an animal. Or it could be the grace of Hermes. Or Anu. Or Rael. Gosh, it could be anybody--a pity nobody can tell! Do you even believe the weak tripe you're shitting up this thread with? Your god is pathetic, mewling, and weak if he operates that ambiguously. Oh, and he's also evil, his shriveled heart black as soot, for making a world in which a sweet dog can get lost like that and also for ignoring the prayers of anybody who just wants to get a lost dog home.

[Guest end3]

That was pathetic. It could have been.. But it also could be just her being a good person and caring about an animal. Or it could be the grace of Hermes. Or Anu. Or Rael. Gosh, it could be anybody--a pity nobody can tell! Do you even believe the weak tripe you're shitting up this thread with? Your god is pathetic, mewling, and weak if he operates that ambiguously. Oh, and he's also evil, his shriveled heart black as soot, for making a world in which a sweet dog can get lost like that and also for ignoring the prayers of anybody who just wants to get a lost dog home.

 

it all just could be a test hun.

[Djoker]

That was pathetic. It could have been.. But it also could be just her being a good person and caring about an animal. Or it could be the grace of Hermes. Or Anu. Or Rael. Gosh, it could be anybody--a pity nobody can tell! Do you even believe the weak tripe you're shitting up this thread with? Your god is pathetic, mewling, and weak if he operates that ambiguously. Oh, and he's also evil, his shriveled heart black as soot, for making a world in which a sweet dog can get lost like that and also for ignoring the prayers of anybody who just wants to get a lost dog home.

 

it all just could be a test hun.

 

If you don't mind me asking, a test for what? The next hardship? Or is that just a test too? I'm really confused about when the testing ends and what the point of the testing really is...

[Akheia]

That's even more pathetic. A test? No competent teacher in the world would use a "test" like that; no student could ever learn the lesson desired. At this point, it's not even clear what your crazy god would be doing all this for anyway. Is it a test? Or is it a Satanic attack? Or maybe it's angels waging war in the sky? Or maybe it's just bad luck. If it's divinely done, then which god is doing it? Certainly an all-benevolent god wouldn't ever hurt an animal even for a test--even the Bible says God won't blame the innocent for another's sin, except for when he also says a sin will haunt a line for seven generations. Oops, oh, that. But it's not like the situation has a signature over it saying "I DID THIS," much less has a test syllabus on it. The problem with Christians is the same problem with Lotto addicts. You never know just what the hell is going on, so you have to guess blindly and take your chances. And you just can't resist taking your chances.

 

Why can't God do what competent teachers do and outline what the object of the lesson is, and set out guidelines for how the student can evaluate his or her performance? Oh no. Much easier to administer a blind test in the dark with no parameters for success or failure and for infinite stakes. THAT'LL do the trick. Do you even understand how contemptuous it is that you're trying to spin this into some sort of divine plan? Your god, by your theological lights, is the malicious asshole who in control of the whole world to begin with, so it's completely his fault the dog went missing in the first place. If he's going to use something this morally bankrupt as a test, I reject him and his disgusting test.

 

Trying to use something as potentially tragic as a missing dog as a ploy to convert people is more disgusting than anything I've ever seen a Christian do, but it shouldn't surprise me. Preying upon the vulnerable is what that religion encourages. End, I really hope you get your head out of your ass someday. It isn't a test. It's just one of the awful things that can happen in the natural world. Responsible people work with what is real in these situations. Adults don't rely on magic sky fairies or guess at the motives of magic sky fairies when there is serious work to be done finding a lost friend.

[TotalWreck]

That was pathetic. It could have been.. But it also could be just her being a good person and caring about an animal. Or it could be the grace of Hermes. Or Anu. Or Rael. Gosh, it could be anybody--a pity nobody can tell! Do you even believe the weak tripe you're shitting up this thread with? Your god is pathetic, mewling, and weak if he operates that ambiguously. Oh, and he's also evil, his shriveled heart black as soot, for making a world in which a sweet dog can get lost like that and also for ignoring the prayers of anybody who just wants to get a lost dog home.

 

it all just could be a test hun.

 

[Positivist]

I don't know P. The love you feel for the dog and the person with cancer may be God in action. I can't help but think that somehow something knows the good that is done in love. Blessings to you for your efforts. I don't know that I would give up praying.....even if it may be just you.

Thanks end. I was curious what the Christian perspective on this might be--it is a view with which I am increasingly unacquainted.

 

I have struggled intellectually for a long time with the notion of where we/our experience ends and God begins. How long is God's arm? The Bible says "his arm is not shortened", or, he is not less powerful or less likely to act. And yet I see no evidence of this in daily life (except in the capability of my imagination). When I see suffering, I act. My neighbour was hitting his dog and I ran out and stopped him, for example. Shortly after that I became very involved in animal welfare, motivated by this dog who suffered so much. And yet, I don't see God ever intervening in anything.

 

I could live with the notion that God exists as some entity "out there", but what I cannot live with is the notion that God is supposedly loving and involved in our lives yet chooses to do nothing. The promises in the Bible have proven time and again to be empty. That is the hardest thing to overcome--expectation.

 

I appreciate your thoughts.

[Positivist]

That's even more pathetic. A test? No competent teacher in the world would use a "test" like that; no student could ever learn the lesson desired. At this point, it's not even clear what your crazy god would be doing all this for anyway. Is it a test? Or is it a Satanic attack? Or maybe it's angels waging war in the sky? Or maybe it's just bad luck. If it's divinely done, then which god is doing it? Certainly an all-benevolent god wouldn't ever hurt an animal even for a test--even the Bible says God won't blame the innocent for another's sin, except for when he also says a sin will haunt a line for seven generations.

 

This is what broke my brain as a believer. This kind of analytical retrospective/prospective musing about what God is teaching me through shit that happens because we live in the natural world.

 

It's crazy making! Ack!

[Positivist]

it all just could be a test hun.

If you don't mind me asking, a test for what? The next hardship? Or is that just a test too? I'm really confused about when the testing ends and what the point of the testing really is...

As someone well acquainted with education and educational psychology, I have to admit God is not a very good teacher. I am starting to think that we simply teach ourselves through hardship. Such a shame to say "God taught me" something when it was really an Independent Study.

[Margee]

it all just could be a test hun.

end.....you know you are my friend......you know that...but I have to ask you a question if you wouldn't mind?

 

If one of your loved one's got lost in the woods and the police found your loved one's dead body that was killed by a wild animal......What 'test' do you think god would be testing you for?

Just wanna know.....

 

Sorry - it is a horrible example, but this has happened to other people.......

[Guest end3]

Well here is what originally went through my mind when I read the OP.......is that Positivist believes somewhere in her person while simultaneously bummed on the exterior with God.

 

About the test thing. I won't go look, but am sure there are numerous verses that suggest the whole thing is a test. If it's true, then any and all reality could be test data. It's not really irrational in that if bad things happen or we don't get the answer we are looking for, then what will our faith be. Certainly there are things that cause us to loose our faith. Some horrific. There is no good answer.

 

If we choose to see the evidence for the story as a function of many irrational stances, then there you are....you change your perspective to fit the new set......in other words being "reborn" to another belief.

 

So it's difficult for me at the moment. I can see people doing Godly, and life-choosing things outside of giving credit to some Cause. I just personally think the Cause is the Christian God.

 

I've argued this before. If the story is correct, there was a time when God was immediately present with people......."I will be your God and you will be my people". And then there was a time where Jesus was present and all we have to do is remain faithful.....not even do the rules or die. And then gives the Bible and the HS so that we may see to chose life rather than death.....but says "I'll be back" at some point.

 

So the thing is, why would Jesus or God act in a time where people are to be acting on God's behalf. There were already chances for that time where God did those things for people.....and the story says, "that's ok God, we got this". So now, I don't understand why, because of the time of the story in which we were born, can we not see, that God is us acting......with one provision....that we will have the garden and things we desire BACK provided we remain faithful.

 

It pretty much goes with the story.....you didn't want me once, you didn't want me twice, but here's the handbook and all my love and I will be back to get you if you don't forget me.

 

How really would we teach humanity other than letting them learn on their own. The story sounds remarkably like my life with my teenager at the moment.

 

And call me nuts all yall wish. It's rational. As I was saying before, it's nuts if you are in a transition of teaching yourself that you were nuts before.

[JoeCoastie]

God was only present for a few people in a tiny corner of the world. He'd smite the Babylonians and the Sodomites for not worshiping him, but go to Europe, China, The Americas, Australia, Africa (outside of Egypt), Etc its like he wasn't even there. Its like he didn't even exist! God didn't exist anywhere where there weren't Jews. What's up with that?

[florduh]

And call me nuts all yall wish. It's rational.

How is it rational to attribute the fact that nothing happened to a supernatural being who is doing nothing because people he himself placed on Earth have pissed him off?

 

When nothing happens, God must be (not) doing it. Sheesh.

[Guest end3]

And call me nuts all yall wish. It's rational.

How is it rational to attribute the fact that nothing happened to a supernatural being who is doing nothing because people he himself placed on Earth have pissed him off?

 

When nothing happens, God must be (not) doing it. Sheesh.

 

It's not irrational, it just doesn't go with the story. Again, I don't understand how one misses the fact that God wouldn't be doing anything at the moment except through people. I'm listening.

[florduh]

I don't understand how one misses the fact that God wouldn't be doing anything at the moment except through people. I'm listening.

It's YOUR interpretation of YOUR mythology. I really can't clear that up for you.

 

What I do see in the mythology is a supreme being that had no problem with cruelly drowning every man, woman, child, puppy and bunny on the planet - so why would he give a fuck about someone's cancer or a lost dog today? His eye is on the sparrow......my ass.

[Positivist]

Well here is what originally went through my mind when I read the OP.......is that Positivist believes somewhere in her person while simultaneously bummed on the exterior with God.

~~~~~

And call me nuts all yall wish. It's rational.

Old habits die hard. I was once a sold out slave to Jesus. I thought God even cared about what color socks I wore.

 

For the record, I no longer believe in God. I just thought I'd give Him/Her/It a chance to save me through a tiny miracle, if his eye is on the sparrow and I am (according to one sentence in the Bible) worth so much more than that (something else I no longer believe). I was actually, for a brief second of my lunacy, thinking of how, if I had found the dog, I would have run into the house and posted on this forum my "positive finding" of what may be a miracle. I know this would not have been conclusive evidence of a god, and certainly not any sort of evidence that Jesus is more than a legendary person.

 

Meh. The world continues to unfold just as if God does not exist. What else can I believe?

[mcdaddy]

That's a meme that I feel very attached to. Something like," this world operates exactly as if there were no god at all". Deism......maybe. Theism? Not a F'ing chance.

[Guest end3]

I don't understand how one misses the fact that God wouldn't be doing anything at the moment except through people. I'm listening.

It's YOUR interpretation of YOUR mythology. I really can't clear that up for you.

 

What I do see in the mythology is a supreme being that had no problem with cruelly drowning every man, woman, child, puppy and bunny on the planet - so why would he give a fuck about someone's cancer or a lost dog today? His eye is on the sparrow......my ass.

 

You see this part of the "myth", yet the myth discribes man chosing to see both good and evil.

 

So it would be unreasonable to reset the genetics to someone found "righteous". Be miffed if you want. It's just a flying rock with life on it in your opinion that you miraculously care about by some scientific reason.