Forceful Inlaws

[Peace]

I also think it's important to point out that when/if you start setting firm boundaries their manipulation and toxic behavior WILL escalate. You can count on it. So don't let their reactions and behavior determine your decisions. This is about you and your family and what you will or will not allow.

[mcdaddy]

Ok I'm getting confuzzed. Ive been on like 3 or 4 diff threads talking about people's crazy in law problems. We got a major case of fundy insanity going on today.

[norton65ca]

Most of the advice already given covers my thoughts, but I do wish to emphasize the idea of cutting them RIGHT OUT for at least a significant period of time to recharge your batteries for what is going to be your Battle of the Somme. Get as far away from these incredibly manipulative people as you possibly can, and keep your children away from them, what I am reading is simply unreal. I wish you and your husband nothing but the best in all of this but Crow it's definitely time to get ready to go over the top of the trench you're in and be ready to take some hostile fire. Your life together is at stake. No more compromises, stand up for yourself and your wife man. fix bayonets. (with the utmost respect)

[Crow]

While in a perfect world I agree that it would be best to just cut them out, here are some factors I'm struggling with:

 

1. We are not financially able to move at this time or at any time in the forseeable future.

Unless we accept foreclosure, live in our car and head out to who know's where, we're not going to be able to change states. We just barely squeaked by on the loan. We'll probably not be able to do it again.

 

2. They probably have the ability to get me fired. (Lots of high end corporate contacts)

I don't know that they would, but they might. I do know that they've prayed for us to have "hardship" so that we would do what is "right".

 

3. They love to use carrot and stick, especially carrot until you are trapped.

They used a lot more stick with me as I was growing up, it kind of blew up in their faces for a while. More about that in a minute. They changed tactics with my sister and she is now a pretty good drone. She's unhappy with a lot of her life, but is even more trapped than we are.

 

4. This would be an open declaration of war. It would be their "god-given duty" to save our youngest son (call him junior). We would be obstacles in their way.

They've already asked for names of teachers and principal, we haven't given them to my family. Before we moved, the principal of junior's school was a cousin, her husband was a preacher. Junior went through hell there. We changed him to a public school, and they talked to his teachers and caused a lot of grief. One specific instance, junior was struggling in class. He didn't like the teacher, she didn't like him. She hinted at medication, then my family mentioned it shortly after. No way to prove anything but my aunt and the teacher were good friends.

 

5. They are preparing a college fund for junior, they will use this with him to draw him back into their ways. (carrot)

 

I realize this sounds batshit insane, hard to believe and paranoid. Maybe some of you have witnessed this kind of behavior before and realize that this kind of thing really goes on.

 

For example. I started college 2 weeks before I graduated highschool, I wanted out of the house that bad. I had academic scholarships, and a good college fund. I get to college and freak all the way out. Don't go to class, party, no rules. I drop out and come back home.

 

Working nights as a pizza guy. One Saturday night I get home at around 2:00AM. They wake me up at 6:30AM to tell me to get ready for church. I tell them no, I'm tired, have a headache, worked all night. Giant fight, ends with me standing on the front porch cussing them out. My mother says "Quiet, the neighbors will hear." They dump my stuff outside and I leave.

 

I get a skid row apartment, funny thing is I feel like people are following me late at night, espescially this SUV. I haven't talked to my parents in months. Made contact with them again when Luna became pregnant with junior. (They apparently expected me to come crawling back quickly)

 

Years later my mother makes the comment: "I was so glad when you moved out of that ghetto, I felt you were much safer living with Luna. I would have your father drive to her parking lot and see if you were still there." WTF. Crazy thing is, the vehicle that I thought was following me was not one they owned. Again, I can't prove it, but it would not surprise me if they hired a P.I. to track me down. I even changed jobs during all this.

 

Here's the problem, I do want to tell them to go away. I'm scared of the consequences for us. Nothing we can prove, but we don't trust them.

 

I'm scared talking to them, I'm a tough guy, I work in a bluecollar job. Talking to them, I'm 6 years old again. Got to get over that.

 

However, maybe we'd still be better off cutting them out. I need some time to figure out what to do.

 

I've often told my wife they are like some kind of 15th century aristocratic family. However, no one has tried to poison anyone.

[Akheia]

Sometimes when we're being abused, especially if it's a long-term situation, we convince ourselves that it'll be impossible to get out. Your abusers likely did everything they could to get that idea there. A long as you believe it, their work is much easier. Please believe me when I say that there may be options you can't see from your vantage point in the pit you're in. Your job might have an EAR program, or your pediatrician may have resources. One thing seems clear: your sense of proportion and judgment may be skewed due to the control your toxic parents exert. A decent therapist may be able to haul you out of this pit. Please consider that there are other options that you're just too enslaved to see?

[norton65ca]

under no circumstances do you want to accept that college fund.

Do NOT tell them the names of your son's teachers, principal or anything else about where they attend school.

These people are stalkers, obsessives and abusive control freaks, I am gobsmacked.

Do NOT allow your son to be medicated under any circumstances.

strewth, I am shocked by what you have shared. Frightening stuff, you could make a movie.

[Crow]

Sometimes when we're being abused, especially if it's a long-term situation, we convince ourselves that it'll be impossible to get out. Your abusers likely did everything they could to get that idea there. A long as you believe it, their work is much easier. Please believe me when I say that there may be options you can't see from your vantage point in the pit you're in. Your job might have an EAR program, or your pediatrician may have resources. One thing seems clear: your sense of proportion and judgment may be skewed due to the control your toxic parents exert. A decent therapist may be able to haul you out of this pit. Please consider that there are other options that you're just too enslaved to see?

 

Just a quick follow up on junior. At the new school he has done fantastic, grades are up. He did require some tutoring in math but overall has done very well. We've had a very different experience dealing with the new school and teachers. Totally different attitude. We had a couple of teachers in our old town that he did very well with. I still don't think he needs to be medicated, otherwise we wouldn't have seen such an improvement at the new school. He's always done well with older teachers, he had a string of teachers that were fresh out of college and family friends. Personally, I think it is good if a boy has a certain amount of rambunctiousness. Of course, not all teachers agree. I also worry about the long term effects of medicating young brains with psychotropics.

 

What is an EAR program?

 

I do hope that there are other routes out of this, and Luna and I have discussed possibly getting counseling. We need to find out what our insurance covers. Probably some of my thinking is warped on this, it's hard to deal with.

 

under no circumstances do you want to accept that college fund.

 

It's not really going to be up to me. Junior will turn 18 and there won't be a whole lot I can do at that point. I worry that cutting them off from him will make him want them back when he gets older. They like to buy love with game systems, toys, etc. Several times they have bought a game system that we couldn't afford and kept it at their house so he would want to come over and play it. In fact, they just did it with the new Zelda. That's fucked up, hadn't even thought about that.

[LuNa81]

Ok I'm getting confuzzed. Ive been on like 3 or 4 diff threads talking about people's crazy in law problems. We got a major case of fundy insanity going on today.

 

I noticed that too lol. Seems like it could have it's own section Start a nasty inlaw revolt and I'll lead the pack because I'm really feeling that

 

Seriously though,

 

One thing that I think might help that hasn't been suggested is getting a hold of some information related to this type of abusive dynamic. A couple of books that came to mind are Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud and Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward. It can be very enlightening and empowering to hear advice from someone who is educated in theses kinds of dynamics.

 

Like someone else said, they are abusive. Mentally, emotionally and since they can be, spiritually.

 

I'm sorry for all you have been through and I hope you and Crow can find ways to draw very strong boundaries and uphold them so you and your family can heal.

 

I wanted to ask, you don't have to answer here, why are you keeping them in your life?

 

Thanks so much, this is turning out to be a big opening for us for sure.... To answer your question of why. Because I can't make that decision for him. I also think he made a good point about our son and the fact that they have a lot to offer monetarily. That's not to say he would decide to go that way, but we do worry that if we take it away from him that eventually we could lose him for quite a while. That's providing the indoctrnation that would ensue doesn't stick. We should have done this early on. We're paying for that now.

 

Then again that could be fear and guilt.

 

I do think counseling would be a good idea.

[SusanStoHeli]

You don't need to move to be free of them - they'd just travel to you anyway. I wouldn't change your house, but I would work hard on savings so you have some cushion if they do do anything. I'd bet they have less power than you think - in a child's eyes parents always seem more powerful than they really are, and I'd bet anything they love to talk up every situation they've had even slight involvement in, to make it seem they had all the power and control. Doesn't make it true.

 

Think about this Crow - you're scared of them, and that fear holds you back from doing what you want - leaving them behind for good. That means the fear owns you, and for this fear, if you continue on, you'll spend your whole life. A bit of pain sooner will eliminate a lifetime of these people messing with you.

 

Can you guys do anything with second jobs, anything that helps you really get back on your feet, and gain a financial cushion faster? That can help make you able to handle anything they care to dish out.

 

Counseling is definitely a good idea. When you're raised by a messed up family, some of the messed up things you realize, others, without realizing it, you assume are normal, and without someone to help you spot those abnormal normals, it can be really hard to realize where they are.

 

Personally - I think 2-3 months of absolutely no contact will do wonders. First they'll likely be begging and offering things - they've trapped you before that way, they'll try again. Then they'll get mad and use threats to try to intimidate you. If any of these work, they'll know they can keep on using it, and you'll have a lifetime of it to look forward to - so stand firm. At the end - think of how your life was during that time, consider if you want another few months, want to make it permanent, or want to see if they'll have a relationship with you that is based on them respecting your rules, now that you've shown them that you are capable of leaving them behind if they don't behave. Personally, I'm not a fan of that last one, given all you've said about them - that type of person is generally not capable of a relationship where they are not in control and dominant.

 

What you said about your sister reminded me of a possible scapegoat and golden child syndrome - it might apply to you. First, the scapegoat - everything they do is not good enough, all criticism, no praise, they're the ones who are responsible for everything that goes wrong in the family. So, the scapegoat grows up desperate for approval, constantly trying to be perfect, to never make a mistake, to finally win some praise. The golden child - they get all of the praise. They're the ideal, they get all of the love and attention.... but.... they see the scapegoat. They know, if parents ever gets pissed at them, they will be removed from their pedestal, and become the scapegoat. It's a constant reminder that they must obey, conform, be what parents want or else. It's a prison with golden chains, but it's a prision, and a small cage at that.

Scapegoats often are lucky in a sense - they've got the better chance to escape - they have to reject all the criticism, and stop seeking what they'll never get from their parents, and what they really wouldn't want if they had it - the chains of being the golden child. The golden child can often have the harder time, because they have to say No to their loving and giving and supporting parents, knowing that doing so, stepping out of the constrains of their prision, will mean they will reject them in the harshest way possible, turn them into the new scapegoat.

[Blue elephant]

I had to cut all contact with my mother to stop her trying to run my life when I was in my thirties. I had no contact with her for about 5 or 6 years.

 

After that she stopped the control tactics.

 

I still can't stand her, but I look after her (she is 89 now, so she does need some assistance). I just minimise the amount of contact and don't allow the conversation to stray in to matters of religion, church or petty conspiracy theories.

 

Once any of that stuff starts, it is time to go. Very busy life I lead - or at least that is what she thinks.

[Crow]

What you said about your sister reminded me of a possible scapegoat and golden child syndrome - it might apply to you. First, the scapegoat - everything they do is not good enough, all criticism, no praise, they're the ones who are responsible for everything that goes wrong in the family. So, the scapegoat grows up desperate for approval, constantly trying to be perfect, to never make a mistake, to finally win some praise. The golden child - they get all of the praise. They're the ideal, they get all of the love and attention.... but.... they see the scapegoat. They know, if parents ever gets pissed at them, they will be removed from their pedestal, and become the scapegoat. It's a constant reminder that they must obey, conform, be what parents want or else. It's a prison with golden chains, but it's a prision, and a small cage at that.

 

Scapegoats often are lucky in a sense - they've got the better chance to escape - they have to reject all the criticism, and stop seeking what they'll never get from their parents, and what they really wouldn't want if they had it - the chains of being the golden child. The golden child can often have the harder time, because they have to say No to their loving and giving and supporting parents, knowing that doing so, stepping out of the constrains of their prision, will mean they will reject them in the harshest way possible, turn them into the new scapegoat.

 

That's actually very accurate, though we've been on the good side when in church and doing what was wanted. I feel bad for my sister but no longer trust her. She recently ratted us out on a disagreement my wife had with my aunt (this aunt we keep mentioning is my mother's twin sister). Disagreement is not really the right word, my wife more or less put her in her place.

 

Anyways, she ratted on us to my mother. I felt pretty sure she had been talking about us behind our backs and she (sister) let it slip this time. My wife doesn't really understand why I stayed loyal to my sister. We always had this unspoken understanding, you watch my back, i'll watch yours. There were times when we were kids that we covered each others lies without even knowing what the other had said. Anyhow, the ratting has made me see she is a part of the borg collective and I haven't been talking to her.

 

My sister lately has been trying to one-up Luna on various things she has been doing.

 

Luna finds it very creepy.

 

It is my understanding that most men marry women like their mother. However i married someone that is close to the way my sister used to be, and the guy she was with before her husband was a lot like me. Her husband is a lot like my step father. My sister has mentioned this (ex-boyfriend like me) to Luna several times, I think some part of her regrets her marriage choice.

 

Luna sees it as something incestuous, and in some ways it may be, but really, my sister and I were all each other had a lot of the time when we were growing up.

 

Note, the creepiness is more about the way my sister acts than me.

 

Getting deep now, this stuff looks really ugly when written down. I have a really screwed up family!

[LivingLife]

Dunno how the law and stuff works there, but this sounds like a real solid case for a restraining order.

 

Here, a simple visit to the magistrate's offices is suffice. My son had an issue with an ex GF who claimed he raped and hit her. There was a hearing, I was in attendance, and the town prosecutor issued a retraining order against my son. They had no proof of abuse or rape and this was simply to keep them apart. She got knocked up 6 months later and now lives in another town.

 

The real issue was she had been unceremoniously dumped by my son and she started all sorts of rumours to try get him back. This girl was a tart and "everyone" in town had screwed her, a go to girl if you did not get lucky elsewhere.

 

Back to your situation. Crow, you need to tell your parents off. This manipulation and whatnot is not kosher for you or your family. I really think once they have been served with an RO, they will have no resolution other than to back off. From what you have shared, there is enough of a case for mental abuse and manipulation. I shared my son's scenario simply to illustrate how easy it was to get us to a hearing. You do not have to even hire a lawyer.

 

The only time they can legitimately interfere is if you are abusing anyone yourself. The fact that they may have helped you out in the past, should be their good xian conscience and not a carrot stick scenario. If you are free of that and are on your feet (independent), tell them to take a hike and do it legally. It will be their loss.

 

They will change their tune once cut off from their grand kid.

 

I never had to deal with this so I can only hypothesise how it must be and draw conclusions from the known facts presented.

[Akheia]

Crow - an EAR program (Employee Assistance R-somethingdumpty) is an informal counseling service that a lot of companies have nowadays. If you work for a place with more than 10 or so employees, chances are you have access to one. There may be a poster about it wherever the minimum-wage poster is hung in your breakroom or HR office, or you may have a contact info # for one on your health benefits card (or call the benefits people and just ask). EAR is usually done by phone with a qualified counselor/therapist who can assess the need. Most folks just do a few sessions of phone counseling, but if the need is great the EAR counselor can arrange for you to get face-to-face counseling. EAR is almost always free and you can use it pretty much as much as you want. I can't remember the last employer I had who *didn't* offer something like it.

 

Almost all healthcare programs now offer some sort of emotional/mental counseling service, but if yours just doesn't, get out the phone book and do what I did--just start making phone calls to abuse hotlines and mental health service clinics and tell them you need help but can't afford it. I guarantee larger clinics will be able to offer sliding-scale services or at least be able to tell you who offers them. While between jobs and thus uninsured, I got counseling that way in Georgia (not a state famous for its mental health services) for, I kid you not, 10c a session and free meds. Most states are happy to do this because it's way cheaper to treat a potential problem before it gets serious and someone goes and blows up a 7/11.

 

I'm really glad your son is doing better. I realize there may not be much you can do to make him accept or not accept your folks' largesse, but this sounds like a very teachable moment to show him that accepting money beholdens you to people in ways you possibly wouldn't want to be thus enslaved. He has your example to go on, and if you're accepting money or help from people you hate and are thereby enslaved to them, he's going to see that money is worth the sacrifice of his dignity and self-respect. Notice how you internalized that lesson long ago and are now suffering for it? Show him a better way.

 

I've been in a similar situation; I once turned down a very large amount of money that I desperately needed from an in-law because I knew that accepting it would mean I would have to humor the old bat when she hectored me about having kids or, even worse, to let her stay with me and my then-husband when she was in town, and there was no fucking way that crazy, controlling psycho was coming near me. I won't lie--I suffered pretty mightily for the short term--but my conscience was clean. A therapist may be able to help you see that you really do have options. You do not have to be the slave of people who abuse you.

 

PS: My heart goes out to you. You've said a couple times how hard it is to be this big strong tough man and yet be terrified of your parents. I know that must be a difficult thing to reconcile. Now is the time to grab your strength in both hands and use it.

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

Okay, first things first.

 

Don't sweat the college fund. Your son, IF YOU SET THE EXAMPLE NOW, will learn what manipulative abusive behavior is, and will drop them like a hot potato afterwhile. My 17 yr old did!

 

If you don't lay the groundwork for your child, it will be your fault kiddos fall into that kind of numbfuckery. As far as the school goes in general, I am glad he is doin better. My own boy has ADHD, and we only medicate him enough to get through school. He's got an Einstein case of it. Naturally bright, high grades, crazily overwhelmed with handling deadlines and switching gears. With that said, he has a possessive aunt (an inlaw), who has tried everythin she can at times to get in his business about medication, therapies, and schooling. Needless to say, there is this thing called PRIVACY, and it is FEDERALLY enforced. You simply need to fill out the forms at the school making it clear who can/cannot discuss your son's education with teachers. I realize you cannot prove anything, but have it in place anyway, and raise hell anytime you even SUSPECT something is going on. The school staff would rather ignore your extended family despite friendships, than have a pissed off parent at their office everyday. Believe me, it works wonders.

 

The time your parents threw your stuff out on the porch was illegal by the way. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS as a citizen. They can no longer affect your loan since you secured it. They do not have to come on your property if you don't want them to. And research rights of extended family to visit your child! My own inlaws tried that on me on several occasions when I disallowed visits. They hired lawyers and everything! VERY INTIMIDATING, but you know what, judge still supported my side and I didn't have to give a lot of reasons to back myself up. In my state, extended family rights do not exist. Naturally, when your child is older, he will probably branch out to meet these people again, my own daughters did. The honeymoon lasted about 6 months, I did very little to argue with my kids about it, just said I had my reasons, here are a couple. Needless to say, they saw through the facade of the nuttery and do not contact anymore.

 

They wouldn't have walked away from the family if I hadn't laid the groundwork of what normal was though! And that is what you have to do, or yeah, you could very well lose your kids too when they are grown. Try to not cross to many bridges before you get to them, but definitely be prepared!