The Virgin Of Fatima

[florduh]

I wish I could help, but you say your irrationality is overruling your rationality. All I can do is point out that there are thousands of wacky things that could seem they just MIGHT be true to the irrational mind - Islamic miracles, Hindu miracles, Voodoo magic, the witch's curse, alien abduction, Xenu, leprechauns. No doubt you easily dismiss most, if not all, of those claims. Why? How is what you're concerned about any different from those other fantastic claims? Be specific (in your own mind. We don't need to pry!).

[suzie]

I wish I could help, but you say your irrationality is overruling your rationality. All I can do is point out that there are thousands of wacky things that could seem they just MIGHT be true to the irrational mind - Islamic miracles, Hindu miracles, Voodoo magic, the witch's curse, alien abduction, Xenu, leprechauns. No doubt you easily dismiss most, if not all, of those claims. Why? How is what you're concerned about any different from those other fantastic claims? Be specific (in your own mind. We don't need to pry!).

I think the main reason that I am so freaked out by this (rather than any of the other things you mentioned) is because of the fear of punishment if i don't believe... the kids mentioned specific images of hell in the visions... if you've read some of my previous posts you will know that i have a HUGE fear of hell the fact that something happened at the time that they said it would also freaked me out- another thing i have a big fear of is (supposedly) fulfilled prophecies. I don't think i fear miracles in other religions because i wasn't indoctrinated into those religions... i know thats a silly reason.

and i don't fear things like unicorns, leprechauns or UFO's because nobody has ever told me that if i don't believe in them i will suffer eternal punishment

[suzie]

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

 

this made me feel a bit better, until i read the comments lol

[Guest Valk0010]

Break down this a little, a crazy miracle happens in front of 70,000 people. It involves children. Yet you have starving children and crap like that. That is really contradictory if there is a god.

 

And according to the wiki.

 

Our Lady of Fátima (Portuguese: Nossa Senhora de Fátima, European Portuguese: [ˈnɔsɐ sɨˈɲɔɾɐ dɨ ˈfatimɐ]^[1]) is a famous title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary as she appeared in apparitions reported by three shepherd children at Fátima in Portugal. These occurred on the 13th day of six consecutive months in 1917, starting on May 13. The three children were Lúcia dos Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto.

That sounds like a set up, to be honest. To convenient.

 

The events at Fátima gained particular fame due to their elements of prophecy and eschatology, particularly with regard to possible world war and the conversion of Soviet Russia.^[2] The reported apparitions at Fátima were officially declared "worthy of belief" by the Catholic Church.

This was 1917, Soviet Russia had just came into power, and scared alot of people in the west shitless particularly in Europe. Another reason to believe to spite evidence. Prophecy and eschatology, particularly in devout parts of the world, would most likely be common knowledge to anybody going to mass every sunday.

 

No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was registered by scientists at the time.^[3] According to contemporary reports from poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita, the solar phenomenon was visible from up to forty kilometers away. Not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.^[13][14]

That makes it sound even more like a conspiracy or at least a will to believe on steroids. Don't you think if it actually happened, people would be seeing the same fracking thing.

 

In addition to the Miracle of the Sun, the seers at Fátima indicated that the lady prophesied a great sign in the night sky which would precede a second great war.^[16][17] On January 25, 1938, bright lights, an aurora borealis appeared all over the northern hemisphere, including in places as far south as North Africa, Bermuda and California.^[16][17] It was the widest occurrence of the aurora since 1709^[18] and people in Paris and elsewhere believed a great fire was burning and fire departments were called.^[19] Lúcia, the sole surviving seer at the time, indicated that it was the sign foretold and so apprised her superior and the bishop in letters the following day.^[16][17] Just over a month later, Hitler seized Austria and eight months later invaded Czechoslovakia.^[16][17]

Coincidence

 

Two of the secrets were revealed in 1941 in a document written by Lúcia, at the request of José da Silva, Bishop of Leiria, to assist with the publication of a new edition of a book on Jacinta.^[1] When asked by the Bishop of Leiria in 1943 to reveal the third secret, Lúcia struggled for a short period, being "not yet convinced that God had clearly authorized her to act."^[2] However, in October 1943 the bishop of Leiria ordered her to put it in writing.^[3] Lúcia then wrote the secret down and sealed it in an envelope not to be opened until 1960, when "it will appear clearer."^[4] The text of the third secret was officially released by Pope John Paul II in 2000, although some claim that it was not the entire secret revealed by Lúcia, despite repeated assertions from the Vatican to the contrary.

These secrets had along time to simmer in these children's brains, and to for them to change and morph into either things more catholic, or more reactionary.

 

The burden of proof isn't on you. You don't have to prove every claim the religious make wrong, you just can say, for various difference reasons, I am not convinced, and that is is.

 

Source for all those quotes: The wikipedia articles all related to this subject.

[suzie]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/joe_nickell/miracles.html

 

http://www.miraclesceptic.com/fatimafraud.html

[freeasabird]

Suzie,

 

I just wanted to follow up after my little tyrade earlier. I get upset about these things not because of what people believe, but because of what religion demands we believe. Religion has poisoned your mind. I mean think about it, let's just give Christianity the benefit of the doubt for one minute (and that is really too long) and presume that it is the correct religion and Yahweh is the one and only real god. The only way to simultaneously enter heaven and also avoid hell is to pick the right religion out of thousands and then get the right interpretation of that one religion. And then after you've done that you must live your live according to that one correct interpretation of the one correct religion. And oh yeah one more thing, there is absolutely zero evidence given directly to you for you to come up with all the correct answers.

 

I think someone would have a better chance of winning the lottery to be completely honest. It's this us/them right/wrong black/white thinking, mindset, and worldview which I cannot believe I ever adhered to. Some religions are quite wonderful and open, as well as are many Christians. But that is not biblical, and it's not humane, and in my opinion it's one of the most toxic and destructive ideas ever created by man. And yes, it was most definitely created by man. There may be a god, but he is surely not this capricious. I sincerely wish you the best in your process of breaking out of your chains.

[suzie]

Break down this a little, a crazy miracle happens in front of 70,000 people. It involves children. Yet you have starving children and crap like that. That is really contradictory if there is a god.

 

And according to the wiki.

 

Our Lady of Fátima (Portuguese: Nossa Senhora de Fátima, European Portuguese: [ˈnɔsɐ sɨˈɲɔɾɐ dɨ ˈfatimɐ]^[1]) is a famous title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary as she appeared in apparitions reported by three shepherd children at Fátima in Portugal. These occurred on the 13th day of six consecutive months in 1917, starting on May 13. The three children were Lúcia dos Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto.

That sounds like a set up, to be honest. To convenient.

 

The events at Fátima gained particular fame due to their elements of prophecy and eschatology, particularly with regard to possible world war and the conversion of Soviet Russia.^[2] The reported apparitions at Fátima were officially declared "worthy of belief" by the Catholic Church.

This was 1917, Soviet Russia had just came into power, and scared alot of people in the west shitless particularly in Europe. Another reason to believe to spite evidence. Prophecy and eschatology, particularly in devout parts of the world, would most likely be common knowledge to anybody going to mass every sunday.

 

No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was registered by scientists at the time.^[3] According to contemporary reports from poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita, the solar phenomenon was visible from up to forty kilometers away. Not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.^[13][14]

That makes it sound even more like a conspiracy or at least a will to believe on steroids. Don't you think if it actually happened, people would be seeing the same fracking thing.

 

In addition to the Miracle of the Sun, the seers at Fátima indicated that the lady prophesied a great sign in the night sky which would precede a second great war.^[16][17] On January 25, 1938, bright lights, an aurora borealis appeared all over the northern hemisphere, including in places as far south as North Africa, Bermuda and California.^[16][17] It was the widest occurrence of the aurora since 1709^[18] and people in Paris and elsewhere believed a great fire was burning and fire departments were called.^[19] Lúcia, the sole surviving seer at the time, indicated that it was the sign foretold and so apprised her superior and the bishop in letters the following day.^[16][17] Just over a month later, Hitler seized Austria and eight months later invaded Czechoslovakia.^[16][17]

Coincidence

 

Two of the secrets were revealed in 1941 in a document written by Lúcia, at the request of José da Silva, Bishop of Leiria, to assist with the publication of a new edition of a book on Jacinta.^[1] When asked by the Bishop of Leiria in 1943 to reveal the third secret, Lúcia struggled for a short period, being "not yet convinced that God had clearly authorized her to act."^[2] However, in October 1943 the bishop of Leiria ordered her to put it in writing.^[3] Lúcia then wrote the secret down and sealed it in an envelope not to be opened until 1960, when "it will appear clearer."^[4] The text of the third secret was officially released by Pope John Paul II in 2000, although some claim that it was not the entire secret revealed by Lúcia, despite repeated assertions from the Vatican to the contrary.

These secrets had along time to simmer in these children's brains, and to for them to change and morph into either things more catholic, or more reactionary.

 

The burden of proof isn't on you. You don't have to prove every claim the religious make wrong, you just can say, for various difference reasons, I am not convinced, and that is is.

 

Source for all those quotes: The wikipedia articles all related to this subject.

thanks Valk I'm freaking out less now

the second link i posted in my last post was really good- it was saying how some of the "prophesies" that the apparition told to Lucia weren't even revealed until after they events had actually happened... fear slowly dissolving

[florduh]

I don't think i fear miracles in other religions because i wasn't indoctrinated into those religions... i know thats a silly reason.

That's not a silly reason - it's the same for everyone. If you had been born in the Middle East you would fear Allah's wrath. It's all bullshit, but the Biblical fables are the ones you're used to, and you were no doubt lied to your entire life by people claiming that THIS religion is the TRUE religion. That Hell punishment is a particularly nasty part of Abrahamic religion, but it's the hook they catch and hold people with. Their primary tools are fear and guilt. Their primary ally is ignorance. You don't have to be a victim - fight back with reason and facts!!!

[suzie]

Suzie,

 

I just wanted to follow up after my little tyrade earlier. I get upset about these things not because of what people believe, but because of what religion demands we believe. Religion has poisoned your mind. I mean think about it, let's just give Christianity the benefit of the doubt for one minute (and that is really too long) and presume that it is the correct religion and Yahweh is the one and only real god. The only way to simultaneously enter heaven and also avoid hell is to pick the right religion out of thousands and then get the right interpretation of that one religion. And then after you've done that you must live your live according to that one correct interpretation of the one correct religion. And oh yeah one more thing, there is absolutely zero evidence given directly to you for you to come up with all the correct answers.

 

I think someone would have a better chance of winning the lottery to be completely honest. It's this us/them right/wrong black/white thinking, mindset, and worldview which I cannot believe I ever adhered to. Some religions are quite wonderful and open, as well as are many Christians. But that is not biblical, and it's not humane, and in my opinion it's one of the most toxic and destructive ideas ever created by man. And yes, it was most definitely created by man. There may be a god, but he is surely not this capricious. I sincerely wish you the best in your process of breaking out of your chains.

Thanks Freeasabird

I'm thinking of visiting a psycologist or something... i just want some way of dealing with the fear and anxiety this is causing Its always worse when I'm on night duty (I do 4 night duties every 4 weeks). Last night was my first night, I didn't sleep all day today and I'm back at work... By the time I get to bed in the morning I will have been 48 hours without sleep, and will have worked 20 of those... not healthy at all!! I just feel like every time I start breaking free of the chains i'm on night duty again and get stressed out!! I hope that if there is a god it is not the god described in the bible

[suzie]

I don't think i fear miracles in other religions because i wasn't indoctrinated into those religions... i know thats a silly reason.

That's not a silly reason - it's the same for everyone. If you had been born in the Middle East you would fear Allah's wrath. It's all bullshit, but the Biblical fables are the ones you're used to, and you were no doubt lied to your entire life by people claiming that THIS religion is the TRUE religion. That Hell punishment is a particularly nasty part of Abrahamic religion, but it's the hook they catch and hold people with. Their primary tools are fear and guilt. Their primary ally is ignorance. You don't have to be a victim - fight back with reason and facts!!!

I'm having trouble finding enough reason and facts to stand up to the amount of fear and guilt I'm experiencing. It gets to the point where I feel physically sick and completely lose my appetite... like I said in my above post though, its usually worse when I'm on nights, so hopefully I'll feel a bit better in a few days

[suzie]

Oh, this sounds crazy, but when I got home from work this morning I made myself stare at the sun for a while, just to see what would happen (apart from the damage to my retinas :/ I figured a bit of damage to my retinas would be better that the psychological damage from all this fear lol) It actually did appear to move, a bit. Pretty sure it was because my eyes couldn't focus on it properly so they kept moving... but anyway, it did appear to dance slightly.... maybe this was what the people at Fatima saw?? It did put my mind at ease slightly lol

[blackpudd1n]

Suzie,

 

I just wanted to follow up after my little tyrade earlier. I get upset about these things not because of what people believe, but because of what religion demands we believe. Religion has poisoned your mind. I mean think about it, let's just give Christianity the benefit of the doubt for one minute (and that is really too long) and presume that it is the correct religion and Yahweh is the one and only real god. The only way to simultaneously enter heaven and also avoid hell is to pick the right religion out of thousands and then get the right interpretation of that one religion. And then after you've done that you must live your live according to that one correct interpretation of the one correct religion. And oh yeah one more thing, there is absolutely zero evidence given directly to you for you to come up with all the correct answers.

 

I think someone would have a better chance of winning the lottery to be completely honest. It's this us/them right/wrong black/white thinking, mindset, and worldview which I cannot believe I ever adhered to. Some religions are quite wonderful and open, as well as are many Christians. But that is not biblical, and it's not humane, and in my opinion it's one of the most toxic and destructive ideas ever created by man. And yes, it was most definitely created by man. There may be a god, but he is surely not this capricious. I sincerely wish you the best in your process of breaking out of your chains.

Thanks Freeasabird

I'm thinking of visiting a psycologist or something... i just want some way of dealing with the fear and anxiety this is causing Its always worse when I'm on night duty (I do 4 night duties every 4 weeks). Last night was my first night, I didn't sleep all day today and I'm back at work... By the time I get to bed in the morning I will have been 48 hours without sleep, and will have worked 20 of those... not healthy at all!! I just feel like every time I start breaking free of the chains i'm on night duty again and get stressed out!! I hope that if there is a god it is not the god described in the bible

 

When your sleep pattern is constantly being disrupted, it's going to be harder to think rationally. Do you have any holiday time up your sleeve? Might be a good idea to take a couple of weeks off and just bum around and get some sleep. Take a break.

 

I know of a great psychologist in town you can get a referral to. I've lost count of how many psychologists I've seen in my life, but this woman is the best I've ever come across. Just let me know when you want her details

[suzie]

Suzie,

 

I just wanted to follow up after my little tyrade earlier. I get upset about these things not because of what people believe, but because of what religion demands we believe. Religion has poisoned your mind. I mean think about it, let's just give Christianity the benefit of the doubt for one minute (and that is really too long) and presume that it is the correct religion and Yahweh is the one and only real god. The only way to simultaneously enter heaven and also avoid hell is to pick the right religion out of thousands and then get the right interpretation of that one religion. And then after you've done that you must live your live according to that one correct interpretation of the one correct religion. And oh yeah one more thing, there is absolutely zero evidence given directly to you for you to come up with all the correct answers.

 

I think someone would have a better chance of winning the lottery to be completely honest. It's this us/them right/wrong black/white thinking, mindset, and worldview which I cannot believe I ever adhered to. Some religions are quite wonderful and open, as well as are many Christians. But that is not biblical, and it's not humane, and in my opinion it's one of the most toxic and destructive ideas ever created by man. And yes, it was most definitely created by man. There may be a god, but he is surely not this capricious. I sincerely wish you the best in your process of breaking out of your chains.

Thanks Freeasabird

I'm thinking of visiting a psycologist or something... i just want some way of dealing with the fear and anxiety this is causing Its always worse when I'm on night duty (I do 4 night duties every 4 weeks). Last night was my first night, I didn't sleep all day today and I'm back at work... By the time I get to bed in the morning I will have been 48 hours without sleep, and will have worked 20 of those... not healthy at all!! I just feel like every time I start breaking free of the chains i'm on night duty again and get stressed out!! I hope that if there is a god it is not the god described in the bible

 

When your sleep pattern is constantly being disrupted, it's going to be harder to think rationally. Do you have any holiday time up your sleeve? Might be a good idea to take a couple of weeks off and just bum around and get some sleep. Take a break.

 

I know of a great psychologist in town you can get a referral to. I've lost count of how many psychologists I've seen in my life, but this woman is the best I've ever come across. Just let me know when you want her details

I've got 9+ weeks of holidays up my sleeve, but my ward only allows 2 RN's to be on leave at the same time... and the leave calender is all booked out until November I've got 7 weeks booked in starting in November though I actually checked the calendar the other day hoping there would be some leave soon, guess I've just gotta wait til November!

I'd love to get her details, did she help you with deconversion issues?? I actually went and saw a couple of counsellors at the end of last year, one was really nice, but she seemed to think that all my issues were resolved once I had my mum's permission for Jake to move in with me, and once I mentioned that I'd talked to two of my Christian friends who were both living with their partners. The other one said something along the lines of "I can understand what you're going through, I'm a Catholic", she then went on to ask me if I thought I was being "a little bit precious" ...maybe I was (and I probably am still being a bit precious lol) but it was not what I needed to hear while I was sitting on her couch pretty much inconsolable

[Akheia]

Oh, this sounds crazy, but when I got home from work this morning I made myself stare at the sun for a while, just to see what would happen (apart from the damage to my retinas :/ I figured a bit of damage to my retinas would be better that the psychological damage from all this fear lol) It actually did appear to move, a bit. Pretty sure it was because my eyes couldn't focus on it properly so they kept moving... but anyway, it did appear to dance slightly.... maybe this was what the people at Fatima saw?? It did put my mind at ease slightly lol

You can really hurt your eyes doing that--be careful, ok?

 

And who knows what the people at Fatima saw. That, as well as the weird apocalyptic prophecies that came out of that place, is easily explainable by mass hysteria. As your BF said, even if something did happen, there's absolutely no way to tie anything to the Judeo-Christian god.

[blackpudd1n]

I've got 9+ weeks of holidays up my sleeve, but my ward only allows 2 RN's to be on leave at the same time... and the leave calender is all booked out until November I've got 7 weeks booked in starting in November though I actually checked the calendar the other day hoping there would be some leave soon, guess I've just gotta wait til November!

I'd love to get her details, did she help you with deconversion issues?? I actually went and saw a couple of counsellors at the end of last year, one was really nice, but she seemed to think that all my issues were resolved once I had my mum's permission for Jake to move in with me, and once I mentioned that I'd talked to two of my Christian friends who were both living with their partners. The other one said something along the lines of "I can understand what you're going through, I'm a Catholic", she then went on to ask me if I thought I was being "a little bit precious" ...maybe I was (and I probably am still being a bit precious lol) but it was not what I needed to hear while I was sitting on her couch pretty much inconsolable

 

Damn, that sucks :/

 

She actually did help me with some of my deconversion issues. She doesn't specialise in religious issues, but she is an excellent all-round psychologist. I've got a feeling that I know who you used to see- sounds exactly like something the woman I'm thinking of would say. One girl I knew called her "The Dog". And I have my own reasons for holding a personal grudge against the woman- my name for her was "That Fucking Cow". If it's who I think it is, you weren't being precious, she was being a bitch.

 

Text me later when you get up, and I'll chat to you about it then, and give you the details of this other lady.

[Akheia]

WTF does "precious" mean in this context? Sucks that any psych would be that unhelpful either way.

[Suzy]

I don't think i fear miracles in other religions because i wasn't indoctrinated into those religions...

 

Mostly I'm past freaking out about miracle claims but when I still used to, I only freaked out about claims those related to the type of Christianity I belonged to (very anti-Catholic protestand evangelicals). So interestingly these Catholic claims of Virgin Mary sightings etc. never freaked me out, because I never believed in them, not even as a Christian. It just shows how these fears are just remnants of what we were indoctrinated into and not that they have more merit than claims of miracles by other beliefs and religions.

 

And if God was real instead of all these questionable "sightings" he should rather correct his church. That would be a better sign than these very questionable miracle claims. I mean, if his message is that the Catholic teaching is the truth, shouldn't he put more effort into cleaning it up from pedophilia, greed, political manipulations and make it a good example for the world? Instead the Catholic Church is one of the most despisable organizations on Earth with its covering for criminals (for example pedophile priests).

[suzie]

Oh, this sounds crazy, but when I got home from work this morning I made myself stare at the sun for a while, just to see what would happen (apart from the damage to my retinas :/ I figured a bit of damage to my retinas would be better that the psychological damage from all this fear lol) It actually did appear to move, a bit. Pretty sure it was because my eyes couldn't focus on it properly so they kept moving... but anyway, it did appear to dance slightly.... maybe this was what the people at Fatima saw?? It did put my mind at ease slightly lol

You can really hurt your eyes doing that--be careful, ok?

 

And who knows what the people at Fatima saw. That, as well as the weird apocalyptic prophecies that came out of that place, is easily explainable by mass hysteria. As your BF said, even if something did happen, there's absolutely no way to tie anything to the Judeo-Christian god.

Lol I know... I was just that freaked out by it all that I felt like I needed to do it to put my mind at ease! And it did, a bit. I find it quite strange that out of all the photos of the event that I have seen, there are none of the actual sun, just of the people looking at the sun... and they don't even look shocked/ surprised... Also, most of the documentation of what people saw was done by a Catholic priest... I'd say he would probably be a little biased in what he wrote

[suzie]

I've got 9+ weeks of holidays up my sleeve, but my ward only allows 2 RN's to be on leave at the same time... and the leave calender is all booked out until November I've got 7 weeks booked in starting in November though I actually checked the calendar the other day hoping there would be some leave soon, guess I've just gotta wait til November!

I'd love to get her details, did she help you with deconversion issues?? I actually went and saw a couple of counsellors at the end of last year, one was really nice, but she seemed to think that all my issues were resolved once I had my mum's permission for Jake to move in with me, and once I mentioned that I'd talked to two of my Christian friends who were both living with their partners. The other one said something along the lines of "I can understand what you're going through, I'm a Catholic", she then went on to ask me if I thought I was being "a little bit precious" ...maybe I was (and I probably am still being a bit precious lol) but it was not what I needed to hear while I was sitting on her couch pretty much inconsolable

 

Damn, that sucks :/

 

She actually did help me with some of my deconversion issues. She doesn't specialise in religious issues, but she is an excellent all-round psychologist. I've got a feeling that I know who you used to see- sounds exactly like something the woman I'm thinking of would say. One girl I knew called her "The Dog". And I have my own reasons for holding a personal grudge against the woman- my name for her was "That Fucking Cow". If it's who I think it is, you weren't being precious, she was being a bitch.

 

Text me later when you get up, and I'll chat to you about it then, and give you the details of this other lady.

She made me feel as though she thought she was better than me... haha "The Dog" suits her... I wonder if we are talking about the same person Lol I'm generally not a "precious" person, so I was shocked that she said that!

The other lady (the nicer one) told me how shocked she was that I was dealing with the kind of issues I was- she feels that religion has all but died out and was surprised that someone could get that upset over religion "in this day and age". Its nice to come on this site and not feel like a freak for having a fear of hell

Text me whenever, I'll be awake until at least 8am lol

[suzie]

WTF does "precious" mean in this context? Sucks that any psych would be that unhelpful either way.

Ummmm.... it kinda means delicate?? Thats the best word I can come up with anyway!! Neither of them were psych's, just counsellors

[suzie]

I don't think i fear miracles in other religions because i wasn't indoctrinated into those religions...

 

Mostly I'm past freaking out about miracle claims but when I still used to, I only freaked out about claims those related to the type of Christianity I belonged to (very anti-Catholic protestand evangelicals). So interestingly these Catholic claims of Virgin Mary sightings etc. never freaked me out, because I never believed in them, not even as a Christian. It just shows how these fears are just remnants of what we were indoctrinated into and not that they have more merit than claims of miracles by other beliefs and religions.

 

And if God was real instead of all these questionable "sightings" he should rather correct his church. That would be a better sign than these very questionable miracle claims. I mean, if his message is that the Catholic teaching is the truth, shouldn't he put more effort into cleaning it up from pedophilia, greed, political manipulations and make it a good example for the world? Instead the Catholic Church is one of the most despisable organizations on Earth with its covering for criminals (for example pedophile priests).

Haha I actually googled "Virgin of Fatima hoax" to find information to put my mind at ease- came across this Evangelical (I think!) site saying that it was the devil that caused the sun to "move" to decieve all the Catholics gathered there to watch... the page was pretty amusing- saying that Catholics were "evil" because they worship idols etc and how they are going to hell lol. Its crazy how there are so many different religions with such different ideas... which all pretty much stemmed from the same place!

Until I had my freak out I always thought that Christianity was a fairly gentle religion, lately I've been reading up on the history of the Catholic church and have come to the conclusion- its EVIL lol!

[suzie]

Ex-Catholic here, volunteering my services to you. I used to be terrified insane by these things; today, I laugh. I literally laugh like a fool at it ALL- "mortal sin", hellfire, you name it. Parts of my earthly life have been so hellish, that there is nothing that those fucking clowns can say to scare me anymore. I'd be happy to be of assistance to you if you'd like to chat.

Thanks Agord

I grew up going to church, but my mum was always adamant that God was a loving, forgiving god... basically I never worried about hell because I was under the impression from my mum that there is no way I would ever end up there. Even now, after I've told her what I've been going through, she tells me there is no way God could send me to hell, even if I become an atheist. I don't know what made her decide this though, the Bible is pretty adamant on the whole "you have to believe to get to heaven" thing.

I had never even heard of mortal sin until I started researching religion recently- if it does exist then I'm stuffed lol. As is pretty much everyone I know, including my parents lol. The whole thing really freaked me out- I thought god was forgiving... and here I was reading that if you comitted a mortal sin there was no hope for salvation

So how did you get from being "terrified insane" about these things, to laughing?? I'd love to know

Thanks, Suzie

[Denyoz]

Dear suzie,

 

Take a piece of paper and write on it: "If I eat a carrot, my head will explode." Now read it. Does it scare you? Are you scared of eating carrots now? Why not? Because you don't believe what you are reading. Same thing with anything you read. Why do you chose to believe it?

 

You have never seen anyone eat a carrot and watch his head explode. So you don't believe it. Have you ever seen someone die and go to hell? So why should you believe that?

[suzie]

Dear suzie,

 

Take a piece of paper and write on it: "If I eat a carrot, my head will explode." Now read it. Does it scare you? Are you scared of eating carrots now? Why not? Because you don't believe what you are reading. Same thing with anything you read. Why do you chose to believe it?

 

You have never seen anyone eat a carrot and watch his head explode. So you don't believe it. Have you ever seen someone die and go to hell? So why should you believe that?

 

I've seen plenty of people die (I'm a nurse), and I have often thought of what (if anything) happens to us after we die... I probably think about it a lot more than most people my age due to the amount of exposure I have to death. The thing with your carrot example is that we have proof that people who eat carrots DON'T suffer a subsequent head explosion (as far as I know anyway!! I've never read any medical journals or anything about carrot induced head explosions!), but when people die we have no way of knowing what happens to their "soul" (if it exists). I'm scared of the unknown I guess...

[♦ ficino ♦]

Haha I actually googled "Virgin of Fatima hoax" to find information to put my mind at ease- came across this Evangelical (I think!) site saying that it was the devil that caused the sun to "move" to decieve all the Catholics gathered there to watch... the page was pretty amusing- saying that Catholics were "evil" because they worship idols etc and how they are going to hell lol. Its crazy how there are so many different religions with such different ideas... which all pretty much stemmed from the same place!

Until I had my freak out I always thought that Christianity was a fairly gentle religion, lately I've been reading up on the history of the Catholic church and have come to the conclusion- its EVIL lol!

 

This Calvinist guy B.B. Warfield wrote an entire book called Counterfeit Miracles, during most of which he argued that this or that Catholic story of a miracle was in fact an account of a deception by the devil. Christians can't agree on anything.

 

I think there's a level on which people have to say, this is bullshit, fuck it, I'm not going to take this crap anymore. We only have one life, and I would urge you to take the risk of following where your "self" and best judgment lead. There are lots of agencies of control that tell people, don't trust in your own understanding. It then boils down to "trust in OUR/MY understanding instead of your own." The Catholic church can't even manage itself and it's telling other people how to live? Fuck that. That's why I stopped going to mass in 1991, just couldn't continue to support that bigoted outfit (despite the good that some Catholics do).