Super Moderator florduh Posted May 4, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2012 Sightings and bleeding statues to prove yourself as a god? Jesus fucking christ that's the stupidest thing I've ever fucking heard. If I were a god worth two shits and I wanted to prove myself I'd contact the media to have their cameras ready and then drop a million fucking tons of food out of the sky onto Africa. Then EVERYONE in the whole world would worship me. I mean that would really be my ultimate goal right? To have as many of my creation worship me. Fuck, this is the kind of religious shit that drives me up a wall, and is going to be grating my last nerve all day. Of course, that's a very good point. But, people see what they want to see. Sometimes I guess we just like to be scared and awed. Logic doesn't enter into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Dear Suzie, As an amateur astronomer, please let me reassure you that the so-called miracle of Fatima is just an example of mass hallucination, induced by religious fervor. I can say this with total confidence and certainty because the Sun has been carefully monitored and watched on a day-to-day basis since the the early 1800's, decades before this 1917 event. If you go here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunspot ...you'll see that astronomers have been measuring and recording the daily number and movement of sunspots for a very long time. Now, please look closely at this diagram. http://en.wikipedia....erfly_graph.gif You'll see that daily records of the Sun's activity have been kept since about 1870. To make this kind of accurate measurement astronomers use large telescopes that track the Sun across the sky as the Earth rotates. (No! They don't look thru the 'scopes - that would mean instant blindness! Instead, special instruments do all the recording.) Now for the big question. So why is it that no observatory reported the Sun moving crazily on that day in 1917? The reason is that it didn't. Crazy movements and weird changes of color and brightness would have been clearly recorded in dozens of observatories across the sunlight side of the world at that time. There's no record of such things happening. There's no mention of the Sun behaving oddly to be found in any scientific journals for that year, nor in the meticulously kept records of each observatory. Also, please consider this. It's not difficult to fool a person about what they think they're seeing, but it's impossible to fool a camera about what it records. That's why CCTV footage will always trump a person's sworn testimony in a court of law. People can lie or be mistaken about something. A camera cannot. It simply records whatever's in it's field of view. On that day, dozens of telescopes and cameras in many different countries would have been trained upon the Sun. They saw nothing unusual. Therefore, since cameras cannot lie or be mistaken, what the people in Portugal saw back in 1917 cannot have been anything real. Most likely it was a mass hallucination. Another point to consider is this. All the planets, the asteroids, the comets and clouds of interplanetary dust in our solar system orbit the most massive object that sits in the center... the Sun. The Sun's immense gravity keeps all of these orbits constrained and in good order. If the Sun had suddenly zipped around from it's proper place, wouldn't the orbits of the Earth, the Moon, Mars, Venus and every other planet, etc. been totally disrupted? Human history should have finished in 1917, with the total destruction of our solar system, caused by the Sun's erratic dance across the sky. But it didn't, did it? Nor is there any record from any astronomical observatory in the world of any gravitational disruption to the planets, the asteroids, the comets or anything else in our solar system. I find that v-e-r-y significant. So was there something else in the sky that could have fooled everyone there? This article seems to suggest the possibility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun Also, if you go to Google Images and put in these words... Parry Arc Sundog Lowitz Arc ...you'll see the wide variety of atmospheric displays that ice crystals in the upper air can create. All of these can be keenly observed with the human eye for long periods, without any harm - unlike directly looking at the Sun. Isn't that what some of the Fatima witnesses said? They watched a dimmed Sun without hurting their eyes? Finally, there's the story of Constantine the Great http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I who was the first Roman Emporer to convert to Christianity. This link... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_hoc_signo_vinces ...describes how he (supposedly) saw a miraculous sign above the Sun. He went on to conquer and found a Christian Roman empire. Does that therefore mean it was a sign from God? Unlikely. What is more likely is that he saw an ice crystal display that he interpreted as meaningful and then this version of the events was the one written down for posterity. If a camera had been pointed up to where Constantine was looking, would it have recorded the sign of the cross and those words? Sadly, we'll never know. However Suzie, my point is this. People have been seeing miraculous signs associated with the Sun for centuries. Only since the invention of the camera have we had any independent, unbiased way of verifying what they think they've seen. Strange, don't you think, that cameras NEVER record these religious messages? That tells me it's all in people's heads. So please get the notion that there's anything significant about Fatima out of your head. Unscrupulous, immoral people are trying to put these toxic ideas into your imagination for their own selfish ends. Please pay attention only to the hard facts, the data and the evidence. If you do that, your mind will be at rest and you'll be at peace. Thanks, BAA. Thanks BAA This just all seems so logical... but part of me wonders if god/mary/jesus just made the sun appear to move (but not actually move) and that's why it wasn't recorded by telescopes?? sorry if this sounds crazy but i haven't exactly been my usual sane self lately lol. the whole thing about it happening at the exact time that the "vision" or whatever it was said it would freaks me out too... The miracle of the sun wiki article had a part in it about how a few years later the northern lights appeared,m brighter than usual, and the last surviving "seer" said it was the sign that another war would start... then WWII started a month later. I'm not great with history but i guess people could have forseen a war coming?? I don't know, I just seem to have this fear of fulfilled prophecies, and this seems to be one of those I actually said a prayer a few days ago, asking god if he is out there to give me a sign... then this comes up and i wonder if it is a sign... but if thats the case then why did all those people get a miracle of the sun and i only stumble across a webpage about a "miracle"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 I'm sure I speak for most of us here in saying I appreciate how you share your knowledge in these domains, BAA. Thanks! Could the religionist reply that the miracle consisted precisely in God's intervention in the minds of the onlookers? I.e. that God produced the same hallucination in many at once, in order to stimulate faith? My guess is that such an apologetical move would be another of the many unfalsifiable hypotheses that apologists put out there. So it would help believers justify their belief to themselves but would not help establish the mass hallucination as evidence of anything about a god or a virgin mother of god. See, that's what I'm freaking out at the moment, as illogical as it is!! My boyfriend (an atheist) did point out that even if it DID happen, and they did actually see it, then it doesn't mean that it was God that caused it. Lol maybe it was the devil!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 can you fill me in on the lack of evidence??? Since neither you nor anyone else has (or can) provide any evidence, then there is a lack of evidence. Jesus appeared on a taco and Mary appeared on an office building window. Can you prove those events are not genuine miracles? Logic, critical thinking, evidence, burden of proof........... See, I can accept things like Jesus appearing on toast etc as just a coincidence, its not like we even know what the guy looked like (if he even existed), its just that 70000 eyewitnesses to something that happened at the exact time it was predicted does seem kinda convincing to me... maybe i'm just gullible!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Sightings and bleeding statues to prove yourself as a god? Jesus fucking christ that's the stupidest thing I've ever fucking heard. If I were a god worth two shits and I wanted to prove myself I'd contact the media to have their cameras ready and then drop a million fucking tons of food out of the sky onto Africa. Then EVERYONE in the whole world would worship me. I mean that would really be my ultimate goal right? To have as many of my creation worship me. Fuck, this is the kind of religious shit that drives me up a wall, and is going to be grating my last nerve all day. It does seem kinda silly hey, you'd think an all powerful god would do more than show 70000 people the sun moving... when i think about it 70000 isn't really that many people- the earth's population is 7billion now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I was raised a Catholic too, but i'd never even heard of this before now... it just decided to pop up right as i started to feel happy again after months of immense fear and guilt... need to go back to being a happy agnostic I was raised a Catholic too, and have always witnessed the Virgin Mary being worshipped more than God himself. I know about all of the Virgin Mary's apparitions. The most convincing ones happened in Medjugorje, Bosnia. They started in 1981 and it has been reported that Our Lady of Međugorje has been appearing daily to three of these visionaries ever since! My parents, brother and sisters even went there in the 1990's to see it. They came back reporting having seen miracles and "something divine in the air." There is so much documentation on this, that I don't know where to start, but you can look into it if you are interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 can you fill me in on the lack of evidence??? Since neither you nor anyone else has (or can) provide any evidence, then there is a lack of evidence. Jesus appeared on a taco and Mary appeared on an office building window. Can you prove those events are not genuine miracles? Logic, critical thinking, evidence, burden of proof........... See, I can accept things like Jesus appearing on toast etc as just a coincidence, its not like we even know what the guy looked like (if he even existed), its just that 70000 eyewitnesses to something that happened at the exact time it was predicted does seem kinda convincing to me... maybe i'm just gullible!! Suzie, would you mind providing a link to whatever it is you are reading? I'd like to take a look at it so maybe I could make some comments. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Sightings and bleeding statues to prove yourself as a god? Jesus fucking christ that's the stupidest thing I've ever fucking heard. If I were a god worth two shits and I wanted to prove myself I'd contact the media to have their cameras ready and then drop a million fucking tons of food out of the sky onto Africa. Then EVERYONE in the whole world would worship me. I mean that would really be my ultimate goal right? To have as many of my creation worship me. Fuck, this is the kind of religious shit that drives me up a wall, and is going to be grating my last nerve all day. Of course, that's a very good point. But, people see what they want to see. Sometimes I guess we just like to be scared and awed. Logic doesn't enter into it. But how come they all saw the same (or similar) things?? i definitely don't like being scared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 I was raised a Catholic too, but i'd never even heard of this before now... it just decided to pop up right as i started to feel happy again after months of immense fear and guilt... need to go back to being a happy agnostic I was raised a Catholic too, and have always witnessed the Virgin Mary being worshipped more than God himself. I know about all of the Virgin Mary's apparitions. The most convincing ones happened in Medjugorje, Bosnia. They started in 1981 and it has been reported that Our Lady of Međugorje has been appearing daily to three of these visionaries ever since! My parents, brother and sisters even went there in the 1990's to see it. They came back reporting having seen miracles and "something divine in the air." There is so much documentation on this, that I don't know where to start, but you can look into it if you are interested. i don't think i should look into it, it will probably just scare me more i'm more interested in proof that its not true lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 can you fill me in on the lack of evidence??? Since neither you nor anyone else has (or can) provide any evidence, then there is a lack of evidence. Jesus appeared on a taco and Mary appeared on an office building window. Can you prove those events are not genuine miracles? Logic, critical thinking, evidence, burden of proof........... See, I can accept things like Jesus appearing on toast etc as just a coincidence, its not like we even know what the guy looked like (if he even existed), its just that 70000 eyewitnesses to something that happened at the exact time it was predicted does seem kinda convincing to me... maybe i'm just gullible!! Suzie, would you mind providing a link to whatever it is you are reading? I'd like to take a look at it so maybe I could make some comments. Thanks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I know about all of the Virgin Mary's apparitions. The most convincing ones happened in Medjugorje, Bosnia. They started in 1981 and it has been reported that Our Lady of Međugorje has been appearing daily to three of these visionaries ever since! Everyday, at the same time, the apparition would happen and the 5 kids would go into a trance, the five of them at the same time. Afterwards, they would report what the Virgin said. Thousands of people witnessed this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 I know about all of the Virgin Mary's apparitions. The most convincing ones happened in Medjugorje, Bosnia. They started in 1981 and it has been reported that Our Lady of Međugorje has been appearing daily to three of these visionaries ever since! Everyday, at the same time, the apparition would happen and the 5 kids would go into a trance, the five of them at the same time. Afterwards, they would report what the Virgin said. Thousands of people witnessed this. this isn't convincing me that its not true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 4, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2012 But how come they all saw the same (or similar) things?? http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=149860 i'm more interested in proof that its not true lol One can't prove a negative. Prove to me that Santa didn't leave those presents under my Christmas tree. Prove that fairies don't exist. Science can present plausible scenarios with real causes, but the bottom line it is a Catholic fable with no proof beyond "they said so." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Sooo an update, I told my boyfriend that I'd started freaking out again this afternoon... he got quite upset and told me he feels like he's losing me to religion. he says all i ever do now is obsess over religion... which is true, but because i want to prove to myself that it isn't true. i don't want to live my life believing that something as horrible as hell exists. I can feel myself spiralling back down into the panic that i had months ago, all because of some silly post i found on a facebook page!! I wish i could dismiss it as bullsh*t as easily as he does (he's atheist) but i just can't i don't know what to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 But how come they all saw the same (or similar) things?? http://www.physicsfo...ad.php?t=149860 i'm more interested in proof that its not true lol One can't prove a negative. Prove to me that Santa didn't leave those presents under my Christmas tree. Prove that fairies don't exist. Science can present plausible scenarios with real causes, but the bottom line it is a Catholic fable with no proof beyond "they said so." I actually read the above link before... it didn't really help... once i get into this panicked state i only see the bad things and can't focus on the logical things which i should be focusing on!! I know this is crazy... can anyone tell me about other "miracles" in other religions?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 4, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2012 can anyone tell me about other "miracles" in other religions?? Google it, you'll have plenty to look at. People want their gods and religions to be true, so they invent proofs that satisfy that need for them. Examples, proofs, logic and evidence won't make any impact on a made up mind. Yours is an irrational fear, and that can be hard to overcome without help. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Then I don't know how you will survive in this world. What happens when you read about UFO's, the abominable snowman, Santa Claus, witches, spontaneous human combustion, ghosts, etc.? Come on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 can anyone tell me about other "miracles" in other religions?? Google it, you'll have plenty to look at. People want their gods and religions to be true, so they invent proofs that satisfy that need for them. Examples, proofs, logic and evidence won't make any impact on a made up mind. Yours is an irrational fear, and that can be hard to overcome without help. Good luck. very irrational i might wait until i've calmed down a bit to google it, knowing my luck i will stumble across another christian miracle and freak myself out more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Then I don't know how you will survive in this world. What happens when you read about UFO's, the abominable snowman, Santa Claus, witches, spontaneous combustion, ghosts, etc.? Come on... you sound like my boyfriend lol. he actually brought this up, and he does have a point... there are that many "eyewitness accounts" of UFO's/people who got "beamed up" by aliens etc on the internet... and i'm sure that there are heaps of other mysterious things written about on the net that are completely untrue... and most of me thinks that this whole miracle of the sun thing is just a hoax.... but i'm scared that its not. i'm pretty sure i sound crazy, i am really freaking out here sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denyoz Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Then I don't know how you will survive in this world. What happens when you read about UFO's, the abominable snowman, Santa Claus, witches, spontaneous combustion, ghosts, etc.? Come on... you sound like my boyfriend lol. he actually brought this up, and he does have a point... there are that many "eyewitness accounts" of UFO's/people who got "beamed up" by aliens etc on the internet... and i'm sure that there are heaps of other mysterious things written about on the net that are completely untrue... and most of me thinks that this whole miracle of the sun thing is just a hoax.... but i'm scared that its not. i'm pretty sure i sound crazy, i am really freaking out here sorry Suzie, you sound like my girlfriend Maybe you suffer from anxiety disorder? Many people do. It's ok, there is good medication out there. I don't know what else to say. Relax, YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Whatever is true, we are all in this together. You won't be left behind. We will all go through it together and have a ball! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Then I don't know how you will survive in this world. What happens when you read about UFO's, the abominable snowman, Santa Claus, witches, spontaneous combustion, ghosts, etc.? Come on... you sound like my boyfriend lol. he actually brought this up, and he does have a point... there are that many "eyewitness accounts" of UFO's/people who got "beamed up" by aliens etc on the internet... and i'm sure that there are heaps of other mysterious things written about on the net that are completely untrue... and most of me thinks that this whole miracle of the sun thing is just a hoax.... but i'm scared that its not. i'm pretty sure i sound crazy, i am really freaking out here sorry Suzie, you sound like my girlfriend Maybe you suffer from anxiety disorder? Many people do. It's ok, there is good medication out there. I don't know what else to say. Relax, YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Whatever is true, we are all in this together. You won't be left behind. We will all go through it together and have a ball! haha now you are really sounding like my boyfriend- he mentioned a month or so ago that he thinks i am suffering from anxiety... then a few things happened, i started reading more, started posting on this forum, then met blackpudd1n off this forum (who lives a few blocks from me in our small town!! Crazy that i would find someone on a site with less than 10000 members worldwide who lives in my town!!) did more reading, basically went back to being agnostic, started to get back to normal with my relationship... then i read about fatima go away anxiety!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 can anyone tell me about other "miracles" in other religions?? I can give you a reference to a "miracle" in the scientific field. The Mystery of Blondlot and N-Rays. They call it a self-induced visual hallucination. That's the only explanation to how it happened. I think it's an area that hasn't been studied enough, but I do think it's possible. People working up a frenzy, based on a strong belief, will "see" things that aren't really there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 So I've been thinking about it, trying to convince myself that: 1) The children made up the fact that they saw the apparition 2) The 70000 people gathered at Fatima were mostly convinced that they would see a miracle before it had happened 3) They were told what time the miracle would happen, so they were really looking for signs at that time 4) Maybe staring at the sun for a prolonged period would cause it to appear to change colour and "dance" 5) If only a few people "saw" the sun move, their excitement may have convinced the others that "maybe it IS moving... a little bit" 6) It could all just be a hoax cooked up by the Catholic Church??? maybe?? 7) All the photos that seem to be on the internet are only of the people watching the sun, not the actual sun itself despite all those reasons though, i'm still freaking out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 4, 2012 Super Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2012 What's the simplest and most likely explanation? Hint: IT'S NOT A SUPERNATURAL MIRACLE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzie Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 What's the simplest and most likely explanation? Hint: IT'S NOT A SUPERNATURAL MIRACLE. probably one of my reasons above or one of the other reasons given in this thread... the small part of me that thinks "maybe it was a miracle" is overruling the logical, rational part of me though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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