Akheia Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Margee--I used to believe that shit wholeheartedly too, that pain and arguments and conflict were perfectly normal in a relationship. I believed deep down that married people went from fight to fight and that everybody went through weeping jags once every few days. It was a shocking eye-opener for me to discover that wasn't the case at all. I've been with my husband now for almost 9 years and we literally haven't had a serious fight or conflict. He's never even raised his voice to me. We've had disagreements, yes, but because we're not bound by the Bronze Age ideal of female subjugation, we can work things out like mature human beings. Christian couples, especially young ones, seem like asexual puppies to me--so cute, and so utterly naive. They charge in absolutely convinced that they can work anything out, and that just isn't true no matter how much you repeat it to yourself. The Biblical model of marriage failed for me, and it failed in great part precisely because I couldn't make myself believe its lies. I tried hard, but in the end I couldn't quite fool myself. Hell, that model has failed for most evangelicals--why else would they be more at risk for divorcing than atheists are? Even End has written that he has to be "dead" to his wife to make his marriage work, so I'm really disinclined to take his word on what a mature relationship looks like. It's when we stop forcing ourselves to believe that crap that we can really grow together as humans, as lovers, as spouses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 How do I accept the Bibles authority and believe? How do I convince myself? You've yet to answer that very simple question. I think you answered yourself a few lines down....compare your experience of true vs. what the Bible says. If it doesn't work for you, hey, it doesn't work. Furthermore, how am I to know if the Bible is an authority? Does not it say that its the sole authority? Does not also the Avesta, Quran, Tanakh, and every other holy book? Surely they all can't be the one and only, but they all claim to be, how do I know which one is? Based on what I know, faith is about all you have just short of Jesus showing up in your living room. How exactly am I to do that? Use what I know is true regarding love to see if the Bible reflects divine origin? See above Well... If I did that, I'd find myself becoming Jesus' personal stalker. Jesus being borderline personality, but loving nobody. And God being the narcissistic psychopath incapable of love, who wants to kill kill kill murder murder murder. I don't find love in the Bible with Jesus nor God. So why did you post? When I was in gradeschool, I relied on the knowledge of others. After my graduation, and when I started into college, I was already above what pastors had to offer me. Actually, even in High School I was above their knowledge, which was part of what did it in for me deconverting. I'll try to find you the old post, but I did try to go on others experience and knowledge, but it didn't get me far. It furthered my deconversion. Great, I'll anticipate reading. I did just that. I'm still testing it. Its not working. Maybe you're not lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 And look, this is not that difficult. Seemingly most here now want a more black and white answer as gray did harm to them. You take the whole of Christianity and subject yourselves to the fundamental end and expect to come out with the complete answer? This would be much like me subjecting myself to a middle school scientist for the unification theory. Stop whining. I just wanted an answer to a very simple question. 2 Christians repeatedly gave me nonanswers to my question. One person actually gave an answer, and even I gave an answer. But neither answers came from christians. Perhaps you didn't choose to believe? Perhaps you believe because your parents said it was so. You have yet to answer that question. You still give reasons why I should believe, but not anything on how to. The unity, the validation, the harmony, God IMO, comes from the "pain", or sacrifice, or suffering, (would all be similar words), so that the other person in a relationship is known. If I am selfish to everyone else knowing me, then there is no balance. Using you and me for example.....if you like knitting and it is integral to your being, and I despise knitting, then it will "pain" me to sacrifice my time while I listen to you talking about knitting. But in doing that, you will feel validated and known.....and you will have a warm fuzzy about END3 from then on. If that would pain someone, then the chances of that person being mentally not ready for a relationship are very high. I have a friend who talks to me about his favorite football team all the time, I don't mind hearing him babble on, despite my finding watching sports to be utterly pointless and a waste of time. If it was anyone else, I would've been annoyed, tried to change the conversation, or left. But being that it is a good friend, I enjoy hearing him talk and spending time with him enough for it not to bother me even in the slightest. That's what a real relationship is. Pain, suffering, sacrifice, etc... in the way the Bible describes it is common in Islamic terrorist relationships, but really has no place in the relationships of sane people. It doesn't have to. Its sick and disgusting. Don't worship God and burn forever, really? Thats a relationship? Maybe to a psychopath but not anything I want to commit to. This is not to say that both sides will end up in this mutual perspective, but ultimately I think the more mature position is that of suffering that others may live. Was it you yesterday that said you give a lot of validation points that others may feel good. I doubt that you agree with every point being made, so in that you have "sacrificed", "suffered", "pained" yourself to act on behalf of Love. This is God IMO, and IMO, describes Christ "suffering" that we may be known, validated. This constant need of validation is something found with people suffering from Borderline personality disorder, codependance, or both. I've said this elsewhere. I suppose it won't bother too many if I repeat it. I think Christians are performance artists who have forgotten that they are pretending. Having said that however, I don't believe they are alone in this. Shakespeare said... All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts, As Dawkins has said, we are engaged in the greatest show on Earth. And I think we all imagine ourselves and the stage in a variety of ways. To be honest, it does seem so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Ok, let's do another......cause three out of four of you seem to have conceptual difficulties. If you walk into a place of employment, do you just walk over to your job The place of employment is seen and experienced first hand before doing the work of employment. It's not like you just start performing the tasks and the place of employment suddenly materializes in front of you. The difficulty is conceptual, on your part, in order to come up with an appropriate analogy. A more appropriate analogy would be to think of the magical crystal cube. I have a crystal cube on my desk. It's magical. It has powers beyond anyone's comprehension and reason. First of all, it can heal all sicknesses. It can heal cancer, amputees, common cold, hay fever, you name it. And also, it can help you get things you need, like a car, house, job, spouse, and so on. But it doesn't end there, when you die, your soul goes into the cube and you're transformed into a multidimensional being and you can fly between all galaxies and stars in the universe and explore them all. Fabulous, right? The only catch is that you have to believe the cube can do this, or it won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I think you answered yourself a few lines down....compare your experience of true vs. what the Bible says. If it doesn't work for you, hey, it doesn't work. I didn't answer my question on how you do it. You see if it works for you, not entirely certain what you mean. But it seems like 'if it sounds like it could be right, then it is'. Then Freud is right regarding psychology? He sounds like he could be right, that is, until you find his faulty premises. So why did you post? For the very reasons I said I did. Great, I'll anticipate reading. Great, I'll show it to ya. Maybe you're not lost. You're the only one that thought I was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I think Christians are performance artists who have forgotten that they are pretending. Having said that however, I don't believe they are alone in this. Shakespeare said... Agree. We all are performing. We all have illusions of ourselves, others, the world, reality, etc. We all even carry different levels of delusions as well. The difference though is that some feel the need of at least trying to reach closer to what "really is there" instead of sticking to fairy tales out of comfort. It's easier to stay in the dream zone. And it's not easy to look for the "real" Reality, only to discover that it's illusive and probably never can be fully understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I don't need my husband or friends to be my source of validation. I do that for myself And pain and suffering have no place in any good relationship (I'm talking about the non-kinky non-fun sort of pain here, of course). My best friend just had a baby. She knows I dislike babies and am uncomfortable around children, so it took a little time for me to convince her that it was okay for her to talk about her happiness with her son to me. It doesn't hurt me and I don't suffer listening to her because I know how happy she is and I love her. I even love her son because of my love for her. I wouldn't babysit, but she wouldn't ask because she loves me in turn. That's how mature friendships work. It's funny that none of the Christians actually have a clue what the mechanics of "making yourself believe" involve. Reminds me of a supervisor I once had who told my team that we had to "show urgency" to customers we talked to over the phone, but had no clue how to communicate HOW to do that. I asked several times, "What does showing urgency look like to you?" and she said, "It just sounds urgent." WTF! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 As for my post of when I deconverted, having trouble finding the first post on it, because i have to go page by page. But I did post this one way back in 2010, a year into my being on this forum. Damn I've been here forever already. I've been here since 2009!?!?!? I was just months out of high school must've been. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/36230-any-defining-moments/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Agreed Hans. I think our reality, in some respects, is quite absurd and horrifying. But I think if we each have the courage to try and understand, and see things as they are then our own manifestation in the world will be less absurd and horrifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Sounds like a decent natural explanation....but our hearts say otherwise. Tell that to everyone who has been divorced and also to everyone who is miserable for sticking it out on a marriage after the romance had died. Hey, their experience isn't real because your heart says something. Christian views on marriage are delusional. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Agreed Hans. I think our reality, in some respects, is quite absurd and horrifying. But I think if we each have the courage to try and understand, and see things as they are then our own manifestation in the world will be less absurd and horrifying. Exactly. I think courage is the key word. When I lost my faith, I realized it was all about honesty. Not honesty to other people necessarily, but honesty to myself. I couldn't keep on building arguments and excuses for lies that I couldn't find any natural support for. If the world contradicts the existence of something, then the attempts of deluding oneself is the ultimate dishonesty. And courage is definitely also very important. One has to have the courage to break the lies. Not an easy thing to do, and it has been painful at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 As for my post of when I deconverted, having trouble finding the first post on it, because i have to go page by page. But I did post this one way back in 2010, a year into my being on this forum. Damn I've been here forever already. I've been here since 2009!?!?!? I was just months out of high school must've been. http://www.ex-christ...fining-moments/ Read the OP BD, I don't know what to tell you at this point. I can go over my interpretations of the Bible, but that's about it. From what I gather reading your last post, I don't know that there exists an objective method of "how to believe". All I do, and this is the truth, is weigh both sides, and decide if it makes sense vs. what I see as reality....or the human condition. But my perspective of the Bible is somewhat different than the norm....so there you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Christians can't even tell non-Christians HOW to make ourselves believe something that is just unbelievable to us. Either you do believe, or you just don't. Either you're already inclined to believe, or you're just not going to be able to do so. Either God already is "wooing" you and you're in the In Crowd, or you're going to the hell he specifically designed for his many failed projects. But there is no magic switch I can flip in my head from "off" to "on" to go from disbelief to belief. There is no process or mechanism beyond blind rote repetition and slave-like obedient action to bring me from apostasy to disciple, and it's easy enough to argue that this is hardly a healthy mechanism to force onto a thinking, sentient being; it's easier still to argue that any faith that requires any such mechanism is an invalid one. That's one hell of a failure of a God you Christians have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Read the OP BD, I don't know what to tell you at this point. I can go over my interpretations of the Bible, but that's about it. From what I gather reading your last post, I don't know that there exists an objective method of "how to believe". All I do, and this is the truth, is weigh both sides, and decide if it makes sense vs. what I see as reality....or the human condition. But my perspective of the Bible is somewhat different than the norm....so there you are. I'm weighing both sides when it comes to reality and my magical crystal cube. Since reality doesn't make a lot of sense, the magical crystal cube is real. You just have to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Christians can't even tell non-Christians HOW to make ourselves believe something that is just unbelievable to us. Either you do believe, or you just don't. Either you're already inclined to believe, or you're just not going to be able to do so. Either God already is "wooing" you and you're in the In Crowd, or you're going to the hell he specifically designed for his many failed projects. But there is no magic switch I can flip in my head from "off" to "on" to go from disbelief to belief. There is no process or mechanism beyond blind rote repetition and slave-like obedient action to bring me from apostasy to disciple, and it's easy enough to argue that this is hardly a healthy mechanism to force onto a thinking, sentient being; it's easier still to argue that any faith that requires any such mechanism is an invalid one. That's one hell of a failure of a God you Christians have. The thing that causes adults to adopt Christianity is emotional trauma. When your life is at rock bottom you look for a crutch. People try different crutches. Some try religion. Of those some try Christianity. If your life is hell and trying Christianity improves things then this is the justification to blindly accept whatever Christians tell you. And then you are indoctrinated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Christians can't even tell non-Christians HOW to make ourselves believe something that is just unbelievable to us. Either you do believe, or you just don't. Either you're already inclined to believe, or you're just not going to be able to do so. Either God already is "wooing" you and you're in the In Crowd, or you're going to the hell he specifically designed for his many failed projects. But there is no magic switch I can flip in my head from "off" to "on" to go from disbelief to belief. There is no process or mechanism beyond blind rote repetition and slave-like obedient action to bring me from apostasy to disciple, and it's easy enough to argue that this is hardly a healthy mechanism to force onto a thinking, sentient being; it's easier still to argue that any faith that requires any such mechanism is an invalid one. That's one hell of a failure of a God you Christians have. I get your drift, but please turn it around......tell me how to believe something. And specifically, tell me how to believe in emotional truths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 emotional truths. What is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 emotional truths. What is it? emotions.....how do I test or believe in emotions. We give them names, we say they are real, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 emotional truths. What is it? emotions.....how do I test or believe in emotions. We give them names, we say they are real, Yes emotions are real. That doesn't mean that what our emotions are telling us reflects the truth of the real world. Emotions are a real response happening in our own body and mind. Being hungry is a real condition. However when a person is hungry that doesn't say anything about the rest of the world. Emotions work the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 12, 2012 Christians can't even tell non-Christians HOW to make ourselves believe something that is just unbelievable to us. Either you do believe, or you just don't. Either you're already inclined to believe, or you're just not going to be able to do so. Either God already is "wooing" you and you're in the In Crowd, or you're going to the hell he specifically designed for his many failed projects. But there is no magic switch I can flip in my head from "off" to "on" to go from disbelief to belief. There is no process or mechanism beyond blind rote repetition and slave-like obedient action to bring me from apostasy to disciple, and it's easy enough to argue that this is hardly a healthy mechanism to force onto a thinking, sentient being; it's easier still to argue that any faith that requires any such mechanism is an invalid one. That's one hell of a failure of a God you Christians have. this is and has also been my problem all along. Once I started to question everything (even when I was a devoted christian) this 'faith' thing just automatically started to die. I was VERY afraid. I begged and cried for god to 'bless' me with bigger faith. I told him he was losing me!! I was honest with him. I asked and begged him to tell satan to take his hands off me!! I was VERY sincere. Nothing!! no answers from god.... nothing! And I could not get that magical feeling back even if someone offered me a fucking million dollars!! Why give this 'gift' to one and not another??? So how is it that some seem to be blessed with this thing called faith?? they can believe through the worst of what happens here on earth or even in their own personal lives!!!!!!!!! I just know they choose to put blinders on because of fear of knowing what could be the truth. PLUS.... thinking that you are goin' to spend an eternity in hell is not the funnnest way to live either!! One of my greatest fears in coming out of 'pretendland' was learning that I might be here all by myself with no protecting, loving, guiding god..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 emotional truths. What is it? emotions.....how do I test or believe in emotions. We give them names, we say they are real, Grammatically, "emotional truths" means truths that are emotional, not emotions that are true. It's one thing to know that emotions exist, what they mean, how they function, validity, and importance of them, but it's another thing to argue that truths come from emotions, i.e. "I feel like frogs are aliens that have come from Alpha Centauri to our planet to invade and take over the world. I feel it, therefore it's true!" But what you're really are talking about here is not "truth" but "existence of" and "validity of". Do emotions exist? Yes. Do they have a function? Yes. Do they have validity? Most of the time. Do they always point to truth? No. Do they sometimes point to truth? Sure. Are there anything called "emotional truth"? Eh? Perhaps they're related to "emotional never-empty water bottles" or "emotional perfect circles"? I have a bunch of emotional computers. They constantly break down at a whim when they're feeling down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The bible is "historical evidence" and the shroud of Turin is "physical evidence." You just can't argue with stupid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The bible is "historical evidence" and the shroud of Turin is "physical evidence." You just can't argue with stupid. And feelings are "objective truth." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The bible is "historical evidence" and the shroud of Turin is "physical evidence." You just can't argue with stupid. And feelings are "objective truth." And religious beliefs are "the Truth". And the Bible is "the inspired Word of God". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted April 12, 2012 The bible is "historical evidence" and the shroud of Turin is "physical evidence." You just can't argue with stupid. And feelings are "objective truth." The bible is "historical evidence" and the shroud of Turin is "physical evidence." You just can't argue with stupid. And feelings are "objective truth." And religious beliefs are "the Truth". And the Bible is "the inspired Word of God". And man was born from god picking up some dust and breathing life into his nostrils....... (were the 'nostrils' in the dust??? ) and woman were made from one of the ribs of man........... True story!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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