norton65ca Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 this thread has given me a headache. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Very well, MM. I will respond to you on a point-by-point basis, in the hope of better communication between us. Putting it simply, I'm not in favor of wasted effort. Then the question becomes "What is the goal?". The goal is not a singular thing. For me at least, it's all of these things. 1. To expose any and all religion-based disinformation. (Christian, Islamic, New Age, whatever.) 2. To help those who need it in the most efficient way possible. 3. To discipline myself and make myself stronger, so that I can do #1 and #2 even better tomorrow. As you read on you'll see that these three inter-linked goals cause me to avoid pointless activities, in favor of successful ones. It's my hope that you'll see what I'm driving at, understand that you can serve others better and make a change in your methods, not your committment or your goal. Are you looking for someone like CatholicKitty who can have adult conversations and take a realistic view of his faith? Christians like him are very rare. Most Christians will act like Thumby and JayL instead. I don't dispute your point. Most Christian apologists are a waste of time. You'll recall that I've written off OrdinaryClay, Thumbelina and Eemaan as hopeless zealots. JayL and DestinyJesus as hopeless trolls. Therefore, I don't waste my time with the trolls unless I absolutely have to and I try to be as accurate and precise as I can be in my opposition to the zealots. Both approaches try to minimize wastage of time and effort. I don't persist in trying to force the zealots to admit to their errors, their lies, their chicanery or anything else - they won't. It's that simple. So, I expose these things for others to see and leave it at that. Nor do I persist in trying to force the zealots to do anything ...anything at all. They won't. It's an impossibility. Force and persistance simply won't work. So, if one of them did do wrong by me I can never expect them to apologize or recant. They just won't do it. But if they do wrong someone else in this forum (which has happened, not so long ago), then I will point this out. Not for my benefit, nor for the benefit of the injured party. No. For the benefit of others (the lurkers, the waverers and the de-converting) who will read and see the harmful actions of the zealots. These religion-obsessed individuals have become so disconnected from reality, real life and genuine human interactions that their usual response to being told that they've hurt someone is, "Huh? How did I do that?" Because they lack the essential human quality of empathy, they fail to see how they could possibly have harmed anyone, especially when they are engaged in the loving and noble cause of saving their souls. So, their usual behavioral pattern of denial quickly re-asserts itself and they either deny wrongdoing at all or they re-dedicate themselves to even more strenuous evangelism. In both cases, the wronged party doesn't receive an apology and so I won't persist in trying to force the zealots to give one. As I said before, it's hopeless. So why do it at all and why persist in it? I'm not helping anyone. I'm not helping the injured third party, whoever they are. I'm not helping the offender - they're beyond help, after all. I'm not helping those who are just silently watching and reading how the thread develops. And I'm not helping myself. In fact, I'm wasting my time and effort seeking an impossible outcome. Where's the sense in that? As for CatholicKitty, I've had no interaction with this person, so I have nothing to say about them. Are you looking to merely discredit the apologetics being put forward at the moment? That is easy enough to do. It's interesting for a while. Q. Am I discrediting these things just because it interests me to do so? A. No. This isn't about my interest. It's about helping others in the most efficient way possible. If doing that means not wasting my time pursuing impossible outcomes (like apologies, where none will be forthcoming), then I don't pursue them. Ditto for persistently trying to force certain Theists to admit their skullduggery. If it can't be done, then why waste time and effort chasing it? Just trying to blow off steam or deal with your own feelings regarding Christianity? Easy enough to do. No. I used to angrier when I first joined up. But those days are behind me now. I agree that it's easy enough to get angry and to sound off, but apart from a little all-too-brief, all-too-personal emotional satsifaction, I see little point in indulging myself again and again. I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I consider such repeated bouts of undirected anger as somewhat self-indulgent and undisciplined. That's just how I feel about it, MM. You're not me and I'm not you, so please don't think that I'm calling you self-indulgent and undisciplined. This is how I'd feel about myself, if I acted in that way, ok? Do you recall my earlier message about the status I accord the various 'resident' Theists on this forum? There were those that could be safely ignored (JayL and DestinyJesus), those that are dangerous (OrdinaryClay, Thumbelina and Eemaan) and there was End3, in a category of his own. I don't know Eemaan but I dont consider any of the others you mention to have any credibility. I'm more interested in their potential victims. Some people are vulnerable to Christianity due to emotional trauma. When I think something like that might be the case it's worth sticking up for the vulnerable person. Sticking up for them? How? By pursuing the wrongdoers for something they will never give you? Isn't that just an exercise in futility, where both parties (the pursued and the pursuers) are eqaully guilty of acting in a hopelessly futile manner? Wouldn't you be serving the victims better in other ways? Isn't that the smarter, more helpful thing to do? Rather than duking it out for no possible gain? You, on the other hand, MM? Can you honestly say that you communicate, relate and talk meaningfully with him? The honest answer is surely, No. Therefore, I have to ask... what are you doing, wasting your time and energy with him, when you could be doing other, more helpful, smarter stuff elsewhere in this forum? Like I said, I'm not responding to End right now. How did this particular thread develop? He was acting nice and asked for some feedback on his quazi science. I gave him some polite and friendly feedback. It seemed innocent enough but End snowballed it from there. Ok, for the sake of argument MM, let's hypothesize that it's ALL End's fault. What now? Do you really think you'll ever get anywhere trying to force him to admit any of it, let alone all of it? My friend, there is ---> N - O - T - H - I - N - G <--- you can do about it! Please wise up and accept that fact. I know that it rankles. I know that it irritates. I know that it feels wrong and I know that it feels like there should be something you can do about it it ...but you can't! Please accept that and move on. Now, if you really DO want to help the victims and the de-converting and anyone else, you'll stop and use your time and energy more usefully elsewhere. In this case, 'elsewhere' doesn't exclusively mean within this forum. As you know, I'm passionate about Astronomy and I've a general interest in Geology and Physics. When I'm not on-line here, I'm on-line elsewhere. I'm reading up about Cosmology so that I understand it better. The better I grasp it, the stronger I am and the better I can tackle the apologists who come here and try to use science to back up their arguments. Ditto with Plate Tectonics and Palaeontology, so that I can take on the Creationists and win. I also read the Bible and Bible commentaries and anything else that'll help expose the disinformation and crap they try and feed us. That's how I try to help the victims. As I said before, I'm not just in this for my interest. I'm playing the long-game. I intend to be in this forum five years or ten years down the line, helping the victims as best I can. Doing so requires me to think carefully and use my time wisely. That's why I consider your fruitless pursuit of impossible outcomes to be a waste of your obvious committment and talents. I'm sorry if that comes across as a put-down MM. It's not meant to be. I hope you can see that. That's what the burning house metaphor is all about. You can't get back the time you've wasted banging heads with End. When you're wasting your time with him, you're not spending it gainfully somewhere else. Since neither of you looks like backing down, Why do you keep saying that when days ago I stopped responding to him? A little recognition please. Very well. I'm sorry. I apologize for not seeing that. Credit where it's due. this wastage of time and effort is just going to grow and grow. Nobody wins here. Not you, not End, nobody. Do you see it now? Do you get it? The choice is yours of course, but if I were in your shoes and I really wanted to help others by exposing lies and half-truths and disinformation, I wouldn't stay in an un-winnable game of last-man-standing. If putting him on 'ignore' is what it takes for you, I'd do it. I don't get it. You sound like you want me to ignore him but you make it sound like I'm still a bad guy somehow. No MM. What I want you to 'get' is to realize that you aren't going to 'get' anywhere doing what you've been doing and to change. No. You aren't the bad guy. But you aren't doing much 'good' either. Do you want to do more good? If so, drop this struggle and do other, better and more helpful things. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note that this is my best effort at trying to say what I mean as clearly as possible. I won't be spending any more time explaining further. There's work to be done elsewhere. I'd very much like you to be my friend, my fellow soldier and someone I can rely on in this forum. You alone can choose how you go on from here. Please choose wisely. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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