Is This World Just A Big Game Of Pretend?

[Deva]

Bravo BAA! Very good post.

 

I have watched "The Devil's Advocate" more than once, and I never picked up on the details about the main character. Especially at the end - I sort of missed that.

 

Don't you love Al Pacino's speech about the 20th century? I loved that part. Other than being too long, I thought the movie was very good.

 

I have seen some lawyers that were purely ego-driven. It is a sad sight.

[Guest end3]

Isolation is death BAA. If that's what you choose, I don't think it to be the wise choice. Inclusion is life. In my last post, I just offered MM a chance throw away our bad conversation for a new one, i.e. what's bugging him, I don't really care the specifics of our individual beliefs, rather the fact that the man is OK.

 

Again, isolation is death.

 

Think about it.

 

Edit: Even you suggestion that people JOIN you in your isolation or by isolating me speaks to this......Let's be alive in our union and let him die in his isolation, or let us die in our isolation.

[mymistake]

If it's NO, then we ignore him, for good.

 

I didn't promise to ignore End3 forever. However End3 has challenged me to ignore him forever. Challenge definitely accepted.

 

Reading your comments, BAA, makes me think I miscommunicated. My hang up isn't specific to End3. It's generalized to stupid bullies. As you well know the Body of Christ has very few hands, very few feet but a great multitude of exit points on its digestive tract. (Do they volunteer for it or what?) So what should we do regarding the next good Christian asshole who visits? And the next one . . . and the next one.

[Guest end3]

If it's NO, then we ignore him, for good.

 

I didn't promise to ignore End3 forever. However End3 has challenged me to ignore him forever. Challenge definitely accepted.

 

However reading your comments makes me think I miscommunicated. My hang up isn't specific to End3. It's generalized to stupid bullies. As you well know the Body of Christ has very few hands, very few feet but a great multitude of exit points on its digestive tract. (Do they volunteer for it or what?) So what should we do regarding the next good Christian

 

asshole who visits? And the next one . . . and the next one.

 

Stupid bully kind of oxymoronic don't you think, since your intellect was the victim?

[bornagainathiest]

Isolation is death BAA. If that's what you choose, I don't think it to be the wise choice. Inclusion is life. In my last post, I just offered MM a chance throw away our bad conversation for a new one, i.e. what's bugging him, I don't really care the specifics of our individual beliefs, rather the fact that the man is OK.

 

Again, isolation is death.

 

Think about it.

 

Edit: Even you suggestion that people JOIN you in your isolation or by isolating me speaks to this......Let's be alive in our union and let him die in his isolation, or let us die in our isolation.

 

Ok End, if isolation is death, why are you choosing to isolate yourself?

 

Yes. That's what you're doing here.

 

We are not cutting ourselves off from anyone else but you.

Why? Because your win-at-all-costs attitude consistently make it impossible for us to have a proper dialog with you. You sometimes start off a thread in a thoughtful way, but it pretty soon devolves into a game of last-man-standing and/or 'winning' every last point, no matter what the cost. Is that not the usual pattern? And doesn't it take two to tango? So, it can't always be everyone else's fault and not yours as well?

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to include you - but not as you are.

Right now, the End3 in this thread isn't someone I can hold a decent dialog with.

He isn't someone I want to waste my time banging heads with.

 

If you want to stay as you are End, that's your choice. Go ahead and cut yourself off. Slowly wither away and die in your self-imposed isolation. Or you could make today different and decide to change. Why don't you act on something we've talked about in the past? Why don't you leave today's End behind and...

 

Take yourself up to the next level.

 

Don't you want to become a better person or to bear better spiritual fruit, phrasing the same thing in either a secular way a religious way? Or is the angry, foul-mouthed, never-give-an-inch, always-has-to-win End3 the way you want to stay?

 

As I said before, we aren't cutting ourselves off from each other - only you.

And then only because your behavior has forced us to. We aren't the ones killing ourselves by slow degrees - you are.

 

Well, if that's the way you want it...

 

...I feel sorry that your ego forces you to choose solitude over inclusion. Death over life.

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

Isolation is death BAA. If that's what you choose, I don't think it to be the wise choice. Inclusion is life. In my last post, I just offered MM a chance throw away our bad conversation for a new one, i.e. what's bugging him, I don't really care the specifics of our individual beliefs, rather the fact that the man is OK.

 

Again, isolation is death.

 

Think about it.

 

Edit: Even you suggestion that people JOIN you in your isolation or by isolating me speaks to this......Let's be alive in our union and let him die in his isolation, or let us die in our isolation.

 

Ok End, if isolation is death, why are you choosing to isolate yourself?

 

Yes. That's what you're doing here.

 

We are not cutting ourselves off from anyone else but you.

Why? Because your win-at-all-costs attitude consistently make it impossible for us to have a proper dialog with you. You sometimes start off a thread in a thoughtful way, but it pretty soon devolves into a game of last-man-standing and/or 'winning' every last point, no matter what the cost. Is that not the usual pattern? And doesn't it take two to tango? So, it can't always be everyone else's fault and not yours as well?

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to include you - but not as you are.

Right now, the End3 in this thread isn't someone I can hold a decent dialog with.

He isn't someone I want to waste my time banging heads with.

 

If you want to stay as you are End, that's your choice. Go ahead and cut yourself off. Slowly wither away and die in your self-imposed isolation. Or you could make today different and decide to change. Why don't you act on something we've talked about in the past? Why don't you leave today's End behind and...

 

Take yourself up to the next level.

 

Don't you want to become a better person or to bear better spiritual fruit, phrasing the same thing in either a secular way a religious way? Or is the angry, foul-mouthed, never-give-an-inch, always-has-to-win End3 the way you want to stay?

 

As I said before, we aren't cutting ourselves off from each other - only you.

And then only because your behavior has forced us to. We aren't the ones killing ourselves by slow degrees - you are.

 

Well, if that's the way you want it...

 

...I feel sorry that your ego forces you to choose solitude over inclusion. Death over life.

 

BAA.

 

I think you are right in many instances here BAA. We are working from the opposite ends of hurt. The thing that forces my nature is exactly what y'all bear; and I expect that what I bear hurts many here. So I see you as isolating yourselves as non-believers and you see me as isolating myself in my beliefs

 

My view is that each may have to endure "suffering, sacrifice, pain" to create a relationship that brings new life to the group. And I endure plenty of that for the sake of relationships here, but as you say, there are times when I can't endure the pain (typically when I have other stressors in my life) and fall victim to my own nature, i.e. lash out and/or be the ass you mention.

 

Edit: And, there are FEW instances here when I make a post where someone doesn't say "dumb stupid Chrsitian/ Christianity"......few....and then JUSTIFY it because it's an area where abuse is allowed. Additionally, I have made at least three or four attempts to lower the level with MM. A couple at the first of this thread, and now two posts here at the end.....and he remains insulting. So hey, I'm game. Learn the hard way or the easy way, he seems to prefer the former.

[mymistake]

Because your win-at-all-costs attitude consistently make it impossible for us to have a proper dialog with you. You sometimes start off a thread in a thoughtful way, but it pretty soon devolves into a game of last-man-standing and/or 'winning' every last point, no matter what the cost. Is that not the usual pattern? And doesn't it take two to tango? So, it can't always be everyone else's fault and not yours as well?

 

Surely even End3 must realize that making a fool of himself as often as he does will never result in him winning. His attitude is lose at all costs. The question is why does he do this self destructive behavior?

[bornagainathiest]

Ok End, if isolation is death, why are you choosing to isolate yourself?

 

Yes. That's what you're doing here.

 

We are not cutting ourselves off from anyone else but you.

Why? Because your win-at-all-costs attitude consistently make it impossible for us to have a proper dialog with you. You sometimes start off a thread in a thoughtful way, but it pretty soon devolves into a game of last-man-standing and/or 'winning' every last point, no matter what the cost. Is that not the usual pattern? And doesn't it take two to tango? So, it can't always be everyone else's fault and not yours as well?

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd like to include you - but not as you are.

Right now, the End3 in this thread isn't someone I can hold a decent dialog with.

He isn't someone I want to waste my time banging heads with.

 

If you want to stay as you are End, that's your choice. Go ahead and cut yourself off. Slowly wither away and die in your self-imposed isolation. Or you could make today different and decide to change. Why don't you act on something we've talked about in the past? Why don't you leave today's End behind and...

 

Take yourself up to the next level.

 

Don't you want to become a better person or to bear better spiritual fruit, phrasing the same thing in either a secular way a religious way? Or is the angry, foul-mouthed, never-give-an-inch, always-has-to-win End3 the way you want to stay?

 

As I said before, we aren't cutting ourselves off from each other - only you.

And then only because your behavior has forced us to. We aren't the ones killing ourselves by slow degrees - you are.

 

Well, if that's the way you want it...

 

...I feel sorry that your ego forces you to choose solitude over inclusion. Death over life.

 

BAA.

 

I think you are right in many instances here BAA. We are working from the opposite ends of hurt. The thing that forces my nature is exactly what y'all bear; and I expect that what I bear hurts many here. So I see you as isolating yourselves as non-believers and you see me as isolating myself in my beliefs

 

My view is that each may have to endure "suffering, sacrifice, pain" to create a relationship that brings new life to the group. And I endure plenty of that for the sake of relationships here, but as you say, there are times when I can't endure the pain (typically when I have other stressors in my life) and fall victim to my own nature, i.e. lash out and/or be the ass you mention.

 

Edit: And, there are FEW instances here when I make a post where someone doesn't say "dumb stupid Chrsitian/ Christianity"......few....and then JUSTIFY it because it's an area where abuse is allowed. Additionally, I have made at least three or four attempts to lower the level with MM. A couple at the first of this thread, and now two posts here at the end.....and he remains insulting. So hey, I'm game. Learn the hard way or the easy way, he seems to prefer the former.

 

Sorry End, but that's not right. (Please see the highlight portion above)

 

Perhaps you've genuinely and innocently misunderstood what I wrote or perhaps you are putting your own spin on things as a damage-limitation and face-saving exercise. I don't know which, but the outcome is still the same - you are misrepresenting me. So, I'll clarify things to put the record straight.

 

I do not see you as isolating yourself in your beliefs. That is not so. I never wrote that and never implied it. You can even check back thru this thread and see for yourself that I've always treated your behavior and your beliefs separately.

 

I see you as isolating yourself from us by your behavior, not by your beliefs.

 

These are two separate things. It's your win-at-all-costs behavior that makes me want to isolate myself from you, not your belief in a triune God or anything like that. It's when you become a HUFWOT that makes me want to give up on you, not when you talk about scripture or faith, ok?

 

I hope that's clear now.

 

The flip side of this is that I am not isolating myself from you because I am an un-believer. No. Not at all. I choose to isolate myself from you because of your behavior, not because of my un-belief. See the difference? It's not a case of you-versus-me. The Christian-versus-the Infidel. Nope. It's End3, the ass (your word, btw) and his behavior that forces me away from you.

 

So please don't try and paint this as an issue of belief. It isn't. It's an issue of behavior - your behavior.

 

I hope we are straight on that now.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

I think you are right in many instances here BAA. We are working from the opposite ends of hurt. The thing that forces my nature is exactly what y'all bear; and I expect that what I bear hurts many here. So I see you as isolating yourselves as non-believers and you see me as isolating myself in my beliefs

 

My view is that each may have to endure "suffering, sacrifice, pain" to create a relationship that brings new life to the group. And I endure plenty of that for the sake of relationships here, but as you say, there are times when I can't endure the pain (typically when I have other stressors in my life) and fall victim to my own nature, i.e. lash out and/or be the ass you mention.

 

Edit: And, there are FEW instances here when I make a post where someone doesn't say "dumb stupid Chrsitian/ Christianity"......few....and then JUSTIFY it because it's an area where abuse is allowed. Additionally, I have made at least three or four attempts to lower the level with MM. A couple at the first of this thread, and now two posts here at the end.....and he remains insulting. So hey, I'm game. Learn the hard way or the easy way, he seems to prefer the former.

 

End, I hope this won't come across as preaching, but the highlighted portion of words above does prompt me to say this.

 

Which covenant are you under the authority of? The Old covenant of the Law or the New covenant of Grace?

 

We both know the answer, don't we? As a Christian you are under the New covenant of grace and peace and love... yes?

 

But just look at your words concerning MyMistake!

 

You come across as a hard-line Old Testament Old Covenanteer who's never heard or known of Christ's grace, salvation and love. With you it's an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, etc., etc. Pay back what you a given in equal measure. Do NOT turn the other cheek, but strike back as you've been struck. Do NOT live up to the Christ's teachings but live down to the behavior of your enemy. If he wants it hard, I'll give it to him hard!

 

Is that what Jesus did and thought and felt about his enemies?

Is this really the NEW life that Jesus Christ called you to?

Is this how you should be living and behaving?

 

I won't even bother quoting scripture here because you know, deep down, that such behavior is not Christian. It's not becoming of someone who's been made alive in Christ. No, such behavior indicates a stubborn and unwilling heart. Such behavior displays bad spiritual fruit. Such behavior tells us unbelievers that your beliefs haven't transformed your life.

 

Yes End. Once again it's down to your behavior, not your beliefs.

 

As I said in my previous message, there is a separation between your behavior and your beliefs.

 

But is that how it should be?

Should there be such a huge gap between what you believe and how you behave? Should there be such a glaring contradiction between your beliefs and your actions? I think we both know the answer, don't we?

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

STOP! (Holds up hand to bring you to a dead halt.)

 

Now End, if I were in your shoes I might think and feel like this....

 

1.

Waitaminut! This Born-Again Atheist is telling me, the Christian, how to live like a Christian! I'm not having that!

 

2.

Who the hell is BAA to lecture me, when he denies the existence of God and the truth of scripture?

 

3.

Pot! Kettle! Black!

I've read where BAA comes across just as angry as I do, uses foul-langauge as much as I do and pays back his enemies on an equal basis, just as I do. So what he's explaining to me is just hypocritical.

 

4.

But this is my nature! (In an exasperated tone of voice.)

This is what I am. Can I help it if I get so stressed that the dam bursts and it all comes flooding out? So what BAA's asking is just TOO much.

 

5.

Wait up! I'm the victim here. I take a shitload of abuse, so now BAA's saying that I can't pay any of it back?

 

6.

Or perhaps...?

Dammit! I know he's right but I just don't want to go there and I don't want to do any of this.

(Because if I did, it might look too much like weakness on my part? Or too great a loss of face? Or it'll look too much like I'm backing down - which I don't want to do because I've never backed down when I've had a chance to get one over on anyone else?)

 

Any of these half dozen on target, End?

If not, I apologize for going too far and putting words in your mouth.

But if you are thinking and/or feeling anything along these lines you might want to get back to me about them and we can talk some more, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Bravo BAA! Very good post.

 

I have watched "The Devil's Advocate" more than once, and I never picked up on the details about the main character. Especially at the end - I sort of missed that.

 

Don't you love Al Pacino's speech about the 20th century? I loved that part. Other than being too long, I thought the movie was very good.

 

I have seen some lawyers that were purely ego-driven. It is a sad sight.

 

Thanks Deva!

 

Personally, I consider "The Devil's Advocate" to be a far more scary movie than anything featuring Freddy Kreuger or Hannibal Lecter. Freddy's fictional and while there are mass murderers like Lecter, our chances of running into one of them are pretty much zero. No, Advocate is brilliantly written and the plot applies to ALL of us, Satan or no Satan. It works because it deals with the choices we all have to make.

 

It works on Atheistic and Theistic levels.

Atheistically, if we let our lives be dominated by our vanities and our baser natures, then we bring harm and misery to ourselves and to those around us. Theistically, it doesn't matter if Satan's got his claws into us or not. Unsaved people are doomed to reap the penalty of their sins anyway. All Satan can do is to increase their suffering in this life.

 

He can still affect the saved thru temptation, causing them to put the fate of their immortal souls in peril. Ok, some Christians hold to a doctrine of Once-Saved-Always-Saved. But even then, Satan can still hurt them. By tempting them to act according to their sinful natures, rather than their spiritual ones. This not only brings suffering in their mortal lives but also stunts and/or poisons the growth of their spiritual fruit, leading to the loss of potential rewards in heaven.

 

Yep! Al Pacino's devilish words about the last century are spot on.

 

Thanks again,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

I hope we are straight on that now.

 

BAA.

 

Yes, thank you.

[Guest end3]

But if you are thinking and/or feeling anything along these lines you might want to get back to me about them and we can talk some more, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to write.

 

Certainly my "dam bursts" on occasion and that nature from my past rushes forth....again. That is a given. So I identify myself two ways basically, the old, aforementioned self and the new "New Covenant" self. They do battle regularly. With that, I don't know what you wish me to say. I could have chosen the New Coventant END to get across my points with MM, but my ideas are met here normally NOT with and open mind that is espoused here, but rather a wonderully closed mind. My analogy was valid.

 

I surely isolate myself through my behavior as an old defense mechanism, but as I was saying, the no consideration, arrogant, condescending attitude is exactly what triggers that response. It in itself is isolationistic, non validating, etc. ....death basically. So I don't agree with it from any standpoint. And then to make it the truth is beyond comprehension for me.

[Guest end3]

When he says that love my be observed (scientifically) through two organisms sacrificing........do y'all want me to NOT relate this to Christianity? Am I supposed to intellectually dismiss this glaring similarity to Christianity?

 

When he says that the Bible and Christianity are different, am I suppose to acknowledge this type of semantic argument?

 

When he doesn't have the expertise, the knowledge, the intellect, to respond adeqately to my analogy, yet stands on an intellectual platform, am I supposed to take another beat down so that he might feel validated in a lie? Yes perhaps, there is always hope that this will yield a change.

 

All I am looking for is a little honesty from that side. I have honest relationships with people here, that I don't mind acknowledging when they have a good point, but I expect the same. It is probably unrealistic of me to expect everyone to be in that stage of acceptance when people are recovering.

 

So I don't feel I am misunderstanding the arguments about behavior, rather that I choose one vs another regardless of my own intellectual argument.

[mymistake]

But just look at your words concerning MyMistake!

 

He is just making up stuff to get me to fail the challenge. There are all kinds of lies there. It's a strategy; a means to reach a goal. If I correct these lies then he gets to laugh at me and declare that he was right and I failed the challenge. It's a rather low tactic but it won't work. He can lie about me till he is blue in the face. I don't have to respond.

[bornagainathiest]

But if you are thinking and/or feeling anything along these lines you might want to get back to me about them and we can talk some more, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to write.

 

That's ok End.

I appreciate your honest responses.

 

Certainly my "dam bursts" on occasion and that nature from my past rushes forth....again. That is a given. So I identify myself two ways basically, the old, aforementioned self and the new "New Covenant" self. They do battle regularly. With that, I don't know what you wish me to say.

 

Well, actually I think you've said it well and said it eloquently enough, End.

 

What I reckon you are saying is that we are ALL at war within ourselves.

Some people talk about it by saying that they're wrestling with their inner 'demons'. Of course, they don't usually mean the unclean spirits who serve Satan. No. They're speaking metaphorically about their inner conflicts and personifying their selfish traits as totally negative beings like demons - that's all. But the analogy works, wouldn't you agree?

 

I could have chosen the New Coventant END to get across my points with MM, but my ideas are met here normally NOT with and open mind that is espoused here, but rather a wonderully closed mind. My analogy was valid.

 

I surely isolate myself through my behavior as an old defense mechanism, but as I was saying, the no consideration, arrogant, condescending attitude is exactly what triggers that response. It in itself is isolationistic, non validating, etc. ....death basically. So I don't agree with it from any standpoint. And then to make it the truth is beyond comprehension for me.

 

Yes, you could have asked the New End to get your point across. And if he was consistently rebuffed, isn't that when the New hands the helm over to the Old? So, the Old End isolates himself via his behavioral defense mechanism, doesn't he? He meets arrogance with arrogance, hostility with hostility and so on? On and on and and on, never quitting, never yielding, always looking for the 'win', just like Kevin Lomax.

 

Ancient Klingon proverb:

"Only a fool fights in a burning house."

 

Isn't that what's happening here End, with you and MyMistake?

 

While both of you are busy fighting each other, the house (i.e., your lives) is burning down around you and you are both getting burned. Ok, this is metaphorical, but the damage you are inflicting on each other is real enough. A cutting comment cuts both ways, hurting the wielder of the blade as much as the victim of the cut. Name calling, slights, spite, negativity, destructive criticism - it all hurts the giver as much as the receiver.

Even the decision not to be the first one to quit is self-destructive, but you already know that, don't you?

Such a choice hardens the heart, but you already know that too, huh?

I don't think I'm writing anything you haven't already considered, deep down, am I?

If that's so, how about this?

 

Who is the smarter, wiser and (dare I say it) the braver man?

The man who stays in the fight to the bitter end, dragging both himself and his opponent down to destruction or the man who wakes up to their folly and the peril they're in and pulls both himself and his enemy out of harms way - while there's still time? (Probably making a new friend and ally in the process.)

 

(Trek again.)

Khan Noonian Singh, attempting to kill James T. Kirk even as he's dying, quotes another 'fight-to-the-death' madman, Captain Ahab.

"From hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"

 

(And again.)

Captain Kirk,talking to Anan 7 about ending the insane war between Eminiar and it's sister planet, Vendikar.

"You admit that you're both predator species. Both killers. But all it takes is for you to say, 'I'm not going to kill today!' That's all it takes to stop."

 

The choice is yours, End.

If MyMistake is foolish enough to persist in this 'war', do you have to be his equal?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

But just look at your words concerning MyMistake!

 

He is just making up stuff to get me to fail the challenge. There are all kinds of lies there. It's a strategy; a means to reach a goal. If I correct these lies then he gets to laugh at me and declare that he was right and I failed the challenge. It's a rather low tactic but it won't work. He can lie about me till he is blue in the face. I don't have to respond.

 

Please read my message to End, MM.

 

Some of it may well be worth your consideration too. I mean that with all due respect and sincerity.

 

While I appreciate that you're keen to fight any and all Christians in this forum, don't you think this particular vendetta has gone on long enough?

 

You must surely know by now that I'm just as keen as you are to expose lies when I see it? But isn't it better for us Ex-Christians to prioritize our efforts and fight 'smarter', not 'harder'? Opposition just for opposition's sake isn't really that helpful, wouldn't you agree?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[mymistake]

But just look at your words concerning MyMistake!

 

He is just making up stuff to get me to fail the challenge. There are all kinds of lies there. It's a strategy; a means to reach a goal. If I correct these lies then he gets to laugh at me and declare that he was right and I failed the challenge. It's a rather low tactic but it won't work. He can lie about me till he is blue in the face. I don't have to respond.

 

Please read my message to End, MM.

 

Some of it may well be worth your consideration too. I mean that with all due respect and sincerity.

 

While I appreciate that you're keen to fight any and all Christians in this forum, don't you think this particular vendetta has gone on long enough?

 

You must surely know by now that I'm just as keen as you are to expose lies when I see it? But isn't it better for us Ex-Christians to prioritize our efforts and fight 'smarter', not 'harder'? Opposition just for opposition's sake isn't really that helpful, wouldn't you agree?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Uh now I'm confused. I thought you wanted me to ignore him. In fact you don't? What exactly are you proposing I do regarding End3? I'm not getting it from your messages to him. I don't see the burning house metaphor working in my case. I don't get it.

[mymistake]

While both of you are busy fighting each other, the house (i.e., your lives) is burning down around you and you are both getting burned. Ok, this is metaphorical, but the damage you are inflicting on each other is real enough.

 

I've read this post over and over and over again. I just don't see it that way.

 

A cutting comment cuts both ways, hurting the wielder of the blade as much as the victim of the cut. Name calling, slights, spite, negativity, destructive criticism - it all hurts the giver as much as the receiver.

 

Have you been taking End seriously when he was bragging about how much he victimized me? It's misinformation. I thought it was funny but I didn't think anybody would take it seriously.

 

Even the decision not to be the first one to quit is self-destructive, but you already know that, don't you?

 

You do realize I have stopped responding to End, right? At the time I thought that was what you were asking me to do but now I'm not sure what you wanted me to do.

 

Such a choice hardens the heart, but you already know that too, huh?

I don't think I'm writing anything you haven't already considered, deep down, am I?

If that's so, how about this?

 

Who is the smarter, wiser and (dare I say it) the braver man?

 

That's an empty question. I can either leave End's slander to sit there or I can correct it. That is the main choice. What he wants me to do is worship his fantasies as if they are valid logic. That's just absurd. I'm not going to worship his ideas. He couldn't even pay me to do that. So he is going to slander and I can either take it or correct it. If I choose to correct it then I can be anywhere from polite to rude. I've tried all strategies on that spectrum and none of them get through to him.

 

The man who stays in the fight to the bitter end, dragging both himself and his opponent down to destruction or the man who wakes up to their folly and the peril they're in and pulls both himself and his enemy out of harms way - while there's still time? (Probably making a new friend and ally in the process.)

 

Oh don't dangle that. There is no way I would trust him. Not going to happen. When he was acting like a stupid bully I slapped him around a bit and rubbed his nose in it but how is that going to result in my destruction? I agree it is a waste of time. Nobody is going to learn from it. But I think you are being melodramatic.

 

(Trek again.)

Khan Noonian Singh, attempting to kill James T. Kirk even as he's dying, quotes another 'fight-to-the-death' madman, Captain Ahab.

"From hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"

 

(And again.)

Captain Kirk,talking to Anan 7 about ending the insane war between Eminiar and it's sister planet, Vendikar.

"You admit that you're both predator species. Both killers. But all it takes is for you to say, 'I'm not going to kill today!' That's all it takes to stop."

 

The choice is yours, End.

If MyMistake is foolish enough to persist in this 'war', do you have to be his equal?

 

I do not hate End. Are you just exaggerating? A couple of days ago I was mad at him for slandering me. I wanted him to withdraw his false statements about me and he made it a point to stand by them instead. Yes I felt angry about that but it wasn't hate. As soon as he got all pathetic I felt sorry for him. I know what hate is and I have hated some people. End isn't one of them.

 

Now with that said I stopped responding to End so what is it you want from me? Do you want me to take him off ignore and then pat him on the head every time he says something stupid and false about me? I will not slurp up his pseudoscience and praise him for being the source of such great validness. Anything short of that and he isn't going to be happy.

[Akheia]

MM, End's a lunatic, but weirdly he's pretty representative of the breed. I can tell you exactly what he isn't: a nice sweet moral Christian. He's an aggressive control freak who just likes thinking he's got a trump card over the rest of humanity. If we were in Pakistan, his trump card would be Allah, and he'd act precisely the same way: barbaric, misogynistic, controlling, taunting, vengeful, and irrational. When finally called to the carpet, he'll mouth some platitude about it just being his "sin nature" or whatever modern touchy-feely Christians say nowadays to justify their hateful spew, but he'll be right back at it five posts later. I don't think these forums are the place for a sinful, failed Christian to hang out to try to convert people, but I don't seriously think he's here to convert people. He can't be, not with that utterly failed testimony. I just think he's here to fight--a peculiarly egotistical reason to be sure, but given what I've read of the guy, that's got to be it. Most of the squabbles with End have next to nothing to do with God, but with his own failed reasoning and logical fallacies, and I rather think that's how he likes it. If there was such a thing as an anti-witness, End is it. 100%.

 

End sure as fuck hasn't been lying just about you. He called me a "man-hater" a few pages ago (utterly without proof, one might mention, though if he works at an ID lab, I'm hardly surprised he's good at making shit up without proof--what's next, slurs about my femininity? Oh wait, he did that too awhile ago). But he's been on ignore for a while, so the only way I see what he says nowadays is if someone quotes him while handing him his ass. I do recommend the approach. End's one of those guys who likes pulling chains to see what reactions he can get, and the worst thing a control freak can face is irrelevance.

[Guest end3]

End's one of those guys who likes pulling chains to see what reactions he can get, and the worst thing a control freak can face is irrelevance.

 

Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby

 

 

 

A Georgia Folktale

 

retold by

 

S.E. Schlosser

 

Well now, that rascal Brer Fox hated Brer Rabbit on account of he was always cutting capers and bossing everyone around. So Brer Fox decided to capture and kill Brer Rabbit if it was the last thing he ever did! He thought and he thought until he came up with a plan. He would make a tar baby! Brer Fox went and got some tar and he mixed it with some turpentine and he sculpted it into the figure of a cute little baby. Then he stuck a hat on the Tar Baby and sat her in the middle of the road.

 

Brer Fox hid himself in the bushes near the road and he waited and waited for Brer Rabbit to come along. At long last, he heard someone whistling and chuckling to himself, and he knew that Brer Rabbit was coming up over the hill. As he reached the top, Brer Rabbit spotted the cute little Tar Baby. Brer Rabbit was surprised. He stopped and stared at this strange creature. He had never seen anything like it before!

 

"Good Morning," said Brer Rabbit, doffing his hat. "Nice weather we're having."

 

The Tar Baby said nothing. Brer Fox laid low and grinned an evil grin.

 

Brer Rabbit tried again. "And how are you feeling this fine day?"

 

The Tar Baby, she said nothing. Brer Fox grinned an evil grin and lay low in the bushes.

 

Brer Rabbit frowned. This strange creature was not very polite. It was beginning to make him mad.

 

"Ahem!" said Brer Rabbit loudly, wondering if the Tar Baby were deaf. "I said 'HOW ARE YOU THIS MORNING?"

 

The Tar Baby said nothing. Brer Fox curled up into a ball to hide his laugher. His plan was working perfectly!

 

"Are you deaf or just rude?" demanded Brer Rabbit, losing his temper. "I can't stand folks that are stuck up! You take off that hat and say 'Howdy-do' or I'm going to give you such a lickin'!"

 

The Tar Baby just sat in the middle of the road looking as cute as a button and saying nothing at all. Brer Fox rolled over and over under the bushes, fit to bust because he didn't dare laugh out loud.

 

"I'll learn ya!" Brer Rabbit yelled. He took a swing at the cute little Tar Baby and his paw got stuck in the tar.

 

"Lemme go or I'll hit you again," shouted Brer Rabbit. The Tar Baby, she said nothing.

 

"Fine! Be that way," said Brer Rabbit, swinging at the Tar Baby with his free paw. Now both his paws were stuck in the tar, and Brer Fox danced with glee behind the bushes.

 

"I'm gonna kick the stuffin' out of you," Brer Rabbit said and pounced on the Tar Baby with both feet. They sank deep into the Tar Baby. Brer Rabbit was so furious he head-butted the cute little creature until he was completely covered with tar and unable to move.

 

Brer Fox leapt out of the bushes and strolled over to Brer Rabbit. "Well, well, what have we here?" he asked, grinning an evil grin.

 

Brer Rabbit gulped. He was stuck fast. He did some fast thinking while Brer Fox rolled about on the road, laughing himself sick over Brer Rabbit's dilemma.

 

"I've got you this time, Brer Rabbit," said Brer Fox, jumping up and shaking off the dust. "You've sassed me for the very last time. Now I wonder what I should do with you?"

 

Brer Rabbit's eyes got very large. "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

 

"Maybe I should roast you over a fire and eat you," mused Brer Fox. "No, that's too much trouble. Maybe I'll hang you instead."

 

"Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

 

"If I'm going to hang you, I'll need some string," said Brer Fox. "And I don't have any string handy. But the stream's not far away, so maybe I'll drown you instead."

 

"Drown me! Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

 

"The briar patch, eh?" said Brer Fox. "What a wonderful idea! You'll be torn into little pieces!"

 

Grabbing up the tar-covered rabbit, Brer Fox swung him around and around and then flung him head over heels into the briar patch. Brer Rabbit let out such a scream as he fell that all of Brer Fox's fur stood straight up. Brer Rabbit fell into the briar bushes with a crash and a mighty thump. Then there was silence.

 

Brer Fox cocked one ear toward the briar patch, listening for whimpers of pain. But he heard nothing. Brer Fox cocked the other ear toward the briar patch, listening for Brer Rabbit's death rattle. He heard nothing.

 

Then Brer Fox heard someone calling his name. He turned around and looked up the hill. Brer Rabbit was sitting on a log combing the tar out of his fur with a wood chip and looking smug.

 

"I was bred and born in the briar patch, Brer Fox," he called. "Born and bred in the briar patch."

 

And Brer Rabbit skipped away as merry as a cricket while Brer Fox ground his teeth in rage and went home.

[mymistake]

End sure as fuck hasn't been lying just about you.

 

I've noticed that. I call this "stupid bully" behavior. I've mentioned it in other posts. However it's not unique to End3. There are many Christians who assert whatever idea pops into their head. I suspect it's a systematic problem arising from the Bible and certain Christian theology. Together they assert myth is the truth which breaks the meaning of the word. Critical thinking is suppressed. The sheep are told that they have part of God inside them feeding them ideas and who will warn them to protect them from what is false. So if they have an idea then naturally it must be true. Why would they need to investigate it before asserting it?

 

 

. . . so the only way I see what he says nowadays is if someone quotes him . . .

 

 

Well, I won't be doing that for a while. At this point I have no idea how long.

[bornagainathiest]

Please read my message to End, MM.

 

Some of it may well be worth your consideration too. I mean that with all due respect and sincerity.

 

While I appreciate that you're keen to fight any and all Christians in this forum, don't you think this particular vendetta has gone on long enough?

 

You must surely know by now that I'm just as keen as you are to expose lies when I see it? But isn't it better for us Ex-Christians to prioritize our efforts and fight 'smarter', not 'harder'? Opposition just for opposition's sake isn't really that helpful, wouldn't you agree?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Uh now I'm confused. I thought you wanted me to ignore him. In fact you don't? What exactly are you proposing I do regarding End3? I'm not getting it from your messages to him. I don't see the burning house metaphor working in my case. I don't get it.

 

Sorry if you're confused, MM.

 

Putting it simply, I'm not in favor of wasted effort.

 

Do you recall my earlier message about the status I accord the various 'resident' Theists on this forum? There were those that could be safely ignored (JayL and DestinyJesus), those that are dangerous (OrdinaryClay, Thumbelina and Eemaan) and there was End3, in a category of his own.

 

This is what I meant about prioritizing our efforts.

Why should I divide my time equally between six theists, when two of them don't even merit my time?

And wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate my efforts and spend that bulk of my time on the most dangerous trio?

 

As for End, I haven't written him off as I've written off the two trolls and the three zealots. We do communicate. We do relate. There is meaning in our words. That's why I'm still talking with him and haven't given up on him.

 

You, on the other hand, MM?

Can you honestly say that you communicate, relate and talk meaningfully with him? The honest answer is surely, No.

Therefore, I have to ask... what are you doing, wasting your time and energy with him, when you could be doing other, more helpful, smarter stuff elsewhere in this forum?

 

That's what the burning house metaphor is all about. You can't get back the time you've wasted banging heads with End. When you're wasting your time with him, you're not spending it gainfully somewhere else. Since neither of you looks like backing down, this wastage of time and effort is just going to grow and grow. Nobody wins here. Not you, not End, nobody.

 

Do you see it now? Do you get it?

 

The choice is yours of course, but if I were in your shoes and I really wanted to help others by exposing lies and half-truths and disinformation, I wouldn't stay in an un-winnable game of last-man-standing.

 

If putting him on 'ignore' is what it takes for you, I'd do it.

 

BAA.

[mymistake]

Putting it simply, I'm not in favor of wasted effort.

 

Then the question becomes "What is the goal?".

 

Are you looking for someone like CatholicKitty who can have adult conversations and take a realistic view of his faith? Christians like him are very rare. Most Christians will act like Thumby and JayL instead.

 

Are you looking to merely discredit the apologetics being put forward at the moment? That is easy enough to do. It's interesting for a while.

 

Just trying to blow off steam or deal with your own feelings regarding Christianity? Easy enough to do.

 

Do you recall my earlier message about the status I accord the various 'resident' Theists on this forum? There were those that could be safely ignored (JayL and DestinyJesus), those that are dangerous (OrdinaryClay, Thumbelina and Eemaan) and there was End3, in a category of his own.

 

I don't know Eemaan but I dont consider any of the others you mention to have any credibility. I'm more interested in their potential victims. Some people are vulnerable to Christianity due to emotional trauma. When I think something like that might be the case it's worth sticking up for the vulnerable person.

 

You, on the other hand, MM?

Can you honestly say that you communicate, relate and talk meaningfully with him? The honest answer is surely, No.

Therefore, I have to ask... what are you doing, wasting your time and energy with him, when you could be doing other, more helpful, smarter stuff elsewhere in this forum?

 

Like I said, I'm not responding to End right now. How did this particular thread develop? He was acting nice and asked for some feedback on his quazi science. I gave him some polite and friendly feedback. It seemed innocent enough but End snowballed it from there.

 

That's what the burning house metaphor is all about. You can't get back the time you've wasted banging heads with End. When you're wasting your time with him, you're not spending it gainfully somewhere else. Since neither of you looks like backing down,

 

Why do you keep saying that when days ago I stopped responding to him? A little recognition please.

 

this wastage of time and effort is just going to grow and grow. Nobody wins here. Not you, not End, nobody.

 

Do you see it now? Do you get it?

 

The choice is yours of course, but if I were in your shoes and I really wanted to help others by exposing lies and half-truths and disinformation, I wouldn't stay in an un-winnable game of last-man-standing.

 

If putting him on 'ignore' is what it takes for you, I'd do it.

 

I don't get it. You sound like you want me to ignore him but you make it sound like I'm still a bad guy somehow.

[Guest end3]

MM, End's a lunatic, but weirdly he's pretty representative of the breed.

 

I'm liking this job of color commentary between their posts. First of all, the rigid definition of lunacy seems relative. Also, she's always beating on me about my misogynic beliefs, but I am a "breed"? Ha. Of course my breed is evil. Maybe I can be and "Evilest" with a green "E" as opposed to an athiest with the red "A". I might like the breed title......"he was his own breed of man"....."a visionary breed"....."he likes to breed...a breeder". Please text "1" if you are in favor and "2" if against. Please, no one under 18 and there will be a $0.99 charge for voting.

 

 

[Guest Valk0010]

End unless you somehow got back to me, on restating your analogy with my criticisms of it answered and I missed it I will eat my hat. Otherwise, I am waiting.