Is This World Just A Big Game Of Pretend?

[mymistake]

It can be observed under the right circumstances; when one organism sacrifices for another.

 

{snip}

 

Fantasy thoughts would be like shooting Ronald Reagan in order to win the heart of Jodi Foster.

 

 

To the bolded.....how was I to interpret that other than you saying love could be observed through sacrifice.

 

That is exactly what I was saying. If one sacrifices for another then that is evidence of love. If you want to get goose bumps because the Bible says something like that, fine. The Bible was written by men and the did know something about the human condition, even if they got a lot wrong.

 

Edit: And the last sentence....turns out his fantasy turned to reality by his actions, no?

 

No! I'm quite sure Jodi Foster was never impressed by vile acts of violence. When I say it's a fantasy I don't mean that these ideas exist in a deranged person's head without brainwaves or biochemical reactions. I mean the thoughts in question arrive at conclusions that fly in the face of the facts.

[mymistake]

I asked about moral standard. Not that he was a any of the things you mentioned.

 

Same problem. One church holds that Jesus Christ wants us to protest funerals to let everyone know how much God hates. The next holds that Jesus is all love all the time. The next holds that Jesus was something else.

 

These are very simple concepts. If there isn't one standard then it isn't a standard.

[Guest end3]

Please don't forget post 346.

[Guest end3]

That is exactly what I was saying. If one sacrifices for another then that is evidence of love.

 

So love is an emotion that has factual evidence through sacrifice.

 

Hbr 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. '

 

You want me to finish this derivation tomorrow, to flesh it out, or can you make the leap. Obviously no is the answer.

[par4dcourse]

With all due respect, mymistake, I have been here since End arrived and I can say that there is not a question in my mind that you are wasting your time.

 

Yep.

[mymistake]

And yes, when you tell me sacrifice is not central to Christianity, it sure makes me wonder what you were subscribing to.

 

Well lucky for you I have never told you that sacrifice is not central to Christianity. Care to share any other responses to things that never happened?

 

I will never tell you that sacrifice is not central to Christianity. How can you work in a lab if you can't read (or write) basic English?

[mymistake]

You want me to finish this derivation . . .

 

Not interested. Why don't you take it up with Thumby or one of the Christians?

[Guest end3]

You want me to finish this derivation . . .

 

Not interested. Why don't you take it up with Thumby or one of the Christians?

 

Oh you blessed coward.

[mymistake]

You want me to finish this derivation . . .

 

Not interested. Why don't you take it up with Thumby or one of the Christians?

 

Oh you blessed coward.

 

End I'm not afraid. You go around and around in circles and can't comprehend stuff a child can get. What is the point of this exercise? You have a religious belief and you can't seem to wrap your mind around the idea that people here are not interested in your religious beliefs. So around we go with you constantly taking the things I wrote and twisting them into a word salad and not understanding that you even made errors, let alone just how bad they are. How is humoring you not a waste of my time?

 

There are thousands or perhaps even millions of Jesus Christs. Which one is the standard? Why yours of course! Your personal Jesus Christ, just as you alone imagine him, is the one true and only correct Jesus Christ standard, just like every other Christian believes about their own personal Jesus Christ beliefs. Which Bible standard is the real standard? Only yours End! Your personal interpretation of the Bible is the one and only real true interpretation of the Bible implanted in your brain by the voice of God himself, just like every other Christian believes about whichever interpretation they prefer. You are the one Neo. Your beliefs are the one real and true truest Truth.

[norton65ca]

The bible is an old book written by a whole bunch of people we would consider hopelessly ignorant. It is no more the "Word of God" than the Bhagavad-Gita, the Quran, the book of Lao Tzu, the sayings of Zarathustra, the Granth Sahib or the doodlings of my four year old grandson.

Jesus, if he existed at all as a human being within the framework of history, was certainly NOT the "son of any god" whatever that means. He had a mortal father according to the scriptures you choose to adhere to, in his geneology, his father is named Joseph, not Yahweh. He is long dead and whatever nice things he might have had to say have been brutally distorted by people with an agenda. The so-called evidence of any resurrection is derivative and sketchy at best.

and this place on the web is an EX Christian site, of course we do not adhere to your benighted medieval horseshit any more, we've rejected it for what it is, a barbaric ancient fantasy religion without merit. Expect hostility coming in here and calling people stupid for rejecting your relijun. WTF did you expect?

[Guest end3]

MM what is it you would like me to say.

 

I'm not responsible for what you write. That is your call, not mine.

 

You would like me to confess that when you say things like modern science can observe love between organisms that sacrifice for each other, that this is potentially quantification of love, that I should throw away the 2000 year old Bible whose theme is love through sacrifice?

 

The Bible's theme isn't love through sacrifice. This is very basic stuff. It leaves me wondering just what Christianity has done to you.

 

You would like me to say that the patterns I see are totally invalid because very few peopl see make them?

 

An idea's validity doesn't depend on it's popularity but rather on it's merit. What makes nonsense of the ideas you have championed lately isn't that they are unpopular but that you can make no case for their merit and you cannot address criticisms.

 

Lignification and Christianity have been mixed before, before I thought of it.

 

But not by Bible authors/editors.

 

I am unsure about the internal and external standard pattern, but since you have little training in these methods, you would want me to disregard my thoughts as fantasy?

 

What are you assuming? When your thoughts sound like a wild fantasy shouldn't you consider the idea that maybe they are exactly that? You are always welcome to build a case for their merits. If that isn't possible maybe you should ask yourself why.

 

I'm not deranged, more aghast at you logic.....to the point of being deranged....somewhat outraged at the continued denial.

 

If my logic is bad then identify my error(s). The fact that you won't implies that you can't. Demonstrate the error(s). Until you do there is nothing for me to deny. You brought up nothing. You demonstrated nothing. Nothing is what you have.

 

Again this is very basic stuff.

 

To the bolded......weren't these your words? Am I having reading comprehension again?

[Guest end3]

And yes, when you tell me sacrifice is not central to Christianity, it sure makes me wonder what you were subscribing to.

 

Well lucky for you I have never told you that sacrifice is not central to Christianity. Care to share any other responses to things that never happened?

 

I will never tell you that sacrifice is not central to Christianity. How can you work in a lab if you can't read (or write) basic English?

 

And aren't THESE your words also?

[mymistake]

The Bible's theme isn't love through sacrifice. This is very basic stuff. It leaves me wondering just what Christianity has done to you.

 

 

To the bolded......weren't these your words? Am I having reading comprehension again?

 

Yes they are my words and yes you are having comprehension trouble again.

 

Try:

 

Bible begins with a "b".

Christianity begins with a "c".

 

Bible has five letters.

Christianity has twelve letters.

 

Bible ends with an "e".

Christianity ends with a "y".

 

These clues can help you realize that the word Bible is not the word Christianity.

[mymistake]

And yes, when you tell me sacrifice is not central to Christianity, it sure makes me wonder what you were subscribing to.

 

Well lucky for you I have never told you that sacrifice is not central to Christianity. Care to share any other responses to things that never happened?

 

I will never tell you that sacrifice is not central to Christianity. How can you work in a lab if you can't read (or write) basic English?

 

And aren't THESE your words also?

 

Epic fail!

 

Okay try to pay attention. The word "Bible" is not the word "Christianity".

 

 

Edit:

Remind me again just how many times have you handed me my ass in our debates? This stuff is so funny ya can't make it up.

[Galien]

You know End, there are only so many sacrifices we can make, even for christianity. When you spend years of your life ignoring what goes on in the christian church for the sake of social conformity, that is a sacrifice, but also a LIE. But at what point is it exactly when you admit that you are LYING to yourself about what goes on around you? Most Christians would not know what real sacrifice or love was if it crawled up their ass and laid eggs. Some people may be happy with the good old we are only human routine but I'm not. Either there is supernatural love going on in the church or there isn't. I looked and looked for 36 years and all I ever saw was pride, abuse of power and interest in an individual's conformity but no real interest in the individual themself. The good people in church are like that because they were born that way. I just wonder why so many people who say they believe in god and in the truth live their whole lives watching a lie perpetrated and never so much as mention it. Christians are not honest mate, they are just deluded conformists.

[bornagainathiest]

HUFWOT.

 

Kentish?

 

I think the WOT stands for waste of time. H is for hopeless. U is for useless.

 

I wonder what he means by the F?

 

But I have to admit, End, your posts in the last couple of days have sounded like they belong in a Monty Python skit. Just look at the last couple of pages. Are you trying to sound deranged? Scientific theories are faith? Some 2000 year old book seems to do a pretty good job at describing this? The difference between reality and fantasy is a new concept you you?

 

Right on the money, MM.

 

Unlike some (who just have to 'win', every time they post something), I can admit to my mistakes. So yes, it was a mistake for me to get involved here. I just wish I were as wise as Deva, when it comes to these things.

 

Deva, on 16 April 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

With all due respect, mymistake, I have been here since End arrived and I can say that there is not a question in my mind that you are wasting your time.

 

And to lay to rest the F question, HUFWOT is my acronym for a Hopeless Useless Futile Waste Of Time. I use it whenever continued dialog is pointless and will serve no real purpose. Please note MM, that I could use the HUFWOT option with the other 'resident' Christian apologists who come here, but I choose not to. The reason is that they fall into different categories than End.

 

JayL and DestinyJesus are no more than trolls and can be mostly ignored. From time to time they do need to be slapped down, but not often. Encouraging others to 'starve the troll' seems to work too.

 

OrdinaryClay, Thumbelina and Eemaan are different.

As was LNC and Rayskidude. (Before your time, I think?)

These people are highly-intelligent, highly-motivated and persistent zealots for their own particular causes. As such, they require constant opposition, wherever and whenever they post. Their arguments must be dismantled and shown for the falsehoods they really are. Their claims must be exposed as untrue. Their beliefs must be demonstrated to be immoral and cruel - not moral and loving. Even when these things are repeatedly done and their beliefs are shown to be wrong, false and inhumanly cruel, they wilfully refuse to empathize, understand or compromise one inch.

 

So, using the HUFWOT option with them just isn't viable. That would be like handing them a free platform to spout their venom. They will simply go on and on and on and on and on, appearing to prove their arguments just by being the last man standing. That outcome isn't acceptable because of who it'll hurt. Because of who'll be poisoned by their toxic words. These are the lurkers, the waverers and the undecided. This forum is a resource to help them de-convert from Christianity. It's here to help. It's not a platform for teaching about the Bible. It's not a place for aggreived and aggressive Christian apologists to smite the wicked with Bible quotes. Nor is it a place for these 'clever' apologists to fish around, get their hooks into the de-converters and reel them back into Christianity.

 

For that matter, this forum isn't the place for zealots of ANY belief system to gain fresh converts either. You can see how their minds work, here. "Since this forum's for ex-Christians, maybe some of them will embrace what I'm offering." In Thumbelina's case, that would be Seventh Day Adventism and in Eemaan's, that would be her particular brand of Islam.

 

So you see MM, that's why I don't use the HUFWOT for them and do use it for End. Some apologists can be ignored and some must be opposed, but End's just a Hopeless Useless Futile, Waste Of Time. As I said before, I screwed up in getting involved here and must try harder to prioritize my time in this forum.

 

Now, having said that, I'm prompted to ask you a question... if that's ok.

 

Why do you persist with him?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Akheia]

I really do wonder why the Christians even bother with this place when there are so many charitable organizations who could use volunteers. Paul wrote that true religion was helping the poor--but I guess he didn't know about the internet yet.

[mymistake]

Why do you persist with him?

 

My ego. A few pages ago he was bragging about all the times he defeated me. I wanted to stick around until something like this happened. Of course there is nothing nobel about it. Fine, I will put him and Thumby back on ignore.

[Guest end3]

Why do you persist with him?

 

My ego. A few pages ago he was bragging about all the times he defeated me. I wanted to stick around until something like this happened. Of course there is nothing nobel about it. Fine, I will put him and Thumby back on ignore.

 

Until what happened. Your not embarrassed that you said so much about science that you didn't know anthing about. Your not embarrassed about the derivation you refused to accept because of your cowardness? And all this handed to you by a redneck high school dropout? I'd be embarrassed and citing my ego as well. Ignore is kinda your best option at this point.

 

And normally this is where my empathy kicks in, the better half of me. But it hasn't with you sir. That's shocking even for me.

[mymistake]

Why do you persist with him?

 

My ego. A few pages ago he was bragging about all the times he defeated me. I wanted to stick around until something like this happened. Of course there is nothing nobel about it. Fine, I will put him and Thumby back on ignore.

 

Until what happened. Your not embarrassed that you said so much about science that you didn't know anthing about. Your not embarrassed about the derivation you refused to accept because of your cowardness?

 

Those events would have had to actually happen before they could effect me. I'm not embarrassed by Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star either. You bragged about handing me my ass and then when I gave you enough rope you hung yourself when you tried to trap me by pretending "Bible" and "Christianity" are the same words. BAA is pointing out that I should stop tormenting you. That was what really happened, and something I should feel embarrassed about.

 

And all this handed to you by a redneck high school dropout?

 

The only thing you handed me was an opportunity and motive to torment you. Taking it was not nice of me.

 

I'd be embarrassed and citing my ego as well. Ignore is kinda your best option at this point.

 

End you never defended your "Standard" preaching. All of the criticisms about it were left standing. Now what is the point to any of this?

 

If you actually work as a lab tech or something and it's not at an institution specifically devoted to exploring Intelligent Design then please do not share your "Standard" preaching with anybody at your place of work, especially not your supervisors. It would raise questions you don't want raised.

[Guest end3]

If you actually work as a lab tech or something and it's not at an institution specifically devoted to exploring Intelligent Design then please do not share your "Standard" preaching with anybody at your place of work, especially not your supervisors. It would raise questions you don't want raised.

 

The name of the plant where I work is the given name of the founder's "guardian angel"....there you go again with your mouth overloading your ass.

[mymistake]

If you actually work as a lab tech or something and it's not at an institution specifically devoted to exploring Intelligent Design then please do not share your "Standard" preaching with anybody at your place of work, especially not your supervisors. It would raise questions you don't want raised.

 

The name of the plant where I work is the given name of the founder's "guardian angel"....there you go again with your mouth overloading your ass.

 

So your "great victory" is that I didn't know you work for Christian intelligent-desinologists? Do you guys use analytical chemistry to determine the type of saddles Noah used to ride velociraptors? Do you use anti-derivatives to calculate the food storage on the ark? Well, if you do work in such a place feel free to tell them all about your Standards idea. They will love you all the more for it. And of course they will accept it as Gospel Truth because when you say "Jesus" they think the Jesus they imagine is the one and only standard Jesus and when you say "Bible" they think their favorite version of the Bible is the standard Bible.

[Guest end3]

If you actually work as a lab tech or something and it's not at an institution specifically devoted to exploring Intelligent Design then please do not share your "Standard" preaching with anybody at your place of work, especially not your supervisors. It would raise questions you don't want raised.

 

The name of the plant where I work is the given name of the founder's "guardian angel"....there you go again with your mouth overloading your ass.

 

So your "great victory" is that I didn't know you work for Christian intelligent-desinologists? Do you guys use analytical chemistry to determine the type of saddles Noah used to ride velociraptors? Do you use anti-derivatives to calculate the food storage on the ark? Well, if you do work in such a place feel free to tell them all about your Standards idea. They will love you all the more for it. And of course they will accept it as Gospel Truth because when you say "Jesus" they think the Jesus they imagine is the one and only standard Jesus and when you say "Bible" they think their favorite version of the Bible is the standard Bible.

 

I know what it is that bugs me MM. What is it that makes you unhappy. Seems like, as you say, your ego won't let you rest. I don't much give a shit about our converstion, but you seem to have your own issue. Before you say I am no shrink, yes, I am not, but it ain't hard to notice your inablilty to quit responding.....like mine of course.

[Guest Valk0010]

If you actually work as a lab tech or something and it's not at an institution specifically devoted to exploring Intelligent Design then please do not share your "Standard" preaching with anybody at your place of work, especially not your supervisors. It would raise questions you don't want raised.

 

The name of the plant where I work is the given name of the founder's "guardian angel"....there you go again with your mouth overloading your ass.

 

So your "great victory" is that I didn't know you work for Christian intelligent-desinologists? Do you guys use analytical chemistry to determine the type of saddles Noah used to ride velociraptors? Do you use anti-derivatives to calculate the food storage on the ark? Well, if you do work in such a place feel free to tell them all about your Standards idea. They will love you all the more for it. And of course they will accept it as Gospel Truth because when you say "Jesus" they think the Jesus they imagine is the one and only standard Jesus and when you say "Bible" they think their favorite version of the Bible is the standard Bible.

 

I know what it is that bugs me MM. What is it that makes you unhappy. Seems like, as you say, your ego won't let you rest. I don't much give a shit about our converstion, but you seem to have your own issue. Before you say I am no shrink, yes, I am not, but it ain't hard to notice your inablilty to quit responding.....like mine of course.

Pot meet kettle much?

[bornagainathiest]

Why do you persist with him?

 

My ego. A few pages ago he was bragging about all the times he defeated me. I wanted to stick around until something like this happened. Of course there is nothing nobel about it. Fine, I will put him and Thumby back on ignore.

 

Ok MM, thanks for the honest response.

 

Now. as one Ex-Christian to another, may I offer you some friendly (and I hope, constructive) words of advice and caution?

 

I fessed up to making a mistake when I added my voice to this thread. You've also fessed up to the reason why you've persisted with End. In both cases our ego's were involved. Now, what are we going to do about this? As you know, I've decided to take Deva's advice and just ignore him. You've said that you'll do the same. That's cool. But what if we're both tempted to go back and message him just 'one-more-time'? What if he says something that we just can't ignore? What'll we do if there's something in us that just pulls us back to the keyboard again?

 

I reckon you'll know exactly what I mean here.

Not because you're an egocentric or overly-egotistical person. No. Not at all. No more and no less than I am, in all probability. OK, so we both have egos, but one thing we are not is ego-dominated. We are not totally enslaved to our egos. We will not do whatever it takes to keep our ego's satisfied. We can step back and reflect on our motives and our actions and choose to change. Is that not so? I can say this with some certainty because you and I are discussing the topic of exercising control over our egos. We clearly couldn't do this if we were totally dominated and driven solely by our egos. But you and I can do this, so I'm quite sure that we can both understand what's going on inside us, right?

 

Sadly, the Kevin Lomax's of this world are enslaved to their egos.

That's the lesson of 'The Devil's Advocate'. Yes, Keeanu Reeves is the star of the movie, but he's not the hero nor the villain, either. In fact, he's the prime victim. Not of Satan (Al Pacino), but of his own vanity. He's enslaved to his vanity, which is just one aspect of his monumental ego. The Lomax character is flawed from get go, has multiple chances to understand this and redeem himself and he blows every one of them. His vain and egotistical pursuit of the win-at-all-costs costs him his professional integrity. And the life a little girl, killed by the paedophile he get's off the hook. And the life of his wife. And finally, his immortal soul. At the film's climax he tries to thwart Satan's plans by committing suicide. Doing this re-sets the circumstances back to near the beginning, where Lomax is defending the paedo in court. Trying to learn from his ego-driven mistakes, he quits as the man's defense.

 

But then what happens?

Satan appears to him in the guise of another person and appeals directly to Kevin's vanity, making a crafty play to get his hooks into Lomax again. Kevin, being the ego-driven slave he is fucks up again! His ego demands attention and so he's back to square one (again) - firmly in the grip of his vanity. So you see MM, the Kevin Lomax character isn't a hero or even an anti-hero, he's a hopeless serial fuck-up.

 

The $1,000,000 dollar question for you and me is... do we really want to be like him?

 

If it's YES, then we stay and duke it out with End, going nowhere.

 

If it's NO, then we ignore him, for good.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.