Lignification

[hereticzero]

I do not have to acknowledge any kind of religious description or recognize anything about Christianity, your version nor anyone else's.

[LivingLife]

End

 

I have read more on your explanations and if I were still a xian, I wood applaud with amens and hallelujahs because it seems a perfect analogy.

 

It is however not. When I first read the OP I envisioned a connect the dots piece of paper and there is only one dot (starting point) on the page and the rest is like a kids scribbling and no cohesive representation of anything.

 

I have cut down enough trees in my day to know the wet shit (sap) is on the inside where the new growth is taking place and the outer bark a protection from the elements and critters that wood do harm to the tree like ants and woodpeckers. Hell put a stump on the ground, leave it and see where the termites eat first, the centre.

 

Branches die and bear no foliage or fruit. In nature they will remain until they fall off. Humans prune a tree of dead wood.

 

I could just as easily make a case here for atheism but that would be moot as it is not a pure philosophy and has no hidden meaning to life.

 

Realists would make better comparisons to the ape family and how they interact and draw conclusions they are not that much different to us. We sure as hell wood not use trees to draw any parallels.

 

My misspellings are deliberate.

[Antlerman]

End

 

I have read more on your explanations and if I were still a xian, I wood applaud with amens and hallelujahs because it seems a perfect analogy.

 

It is however not. When I first read the OP I envisioned a connect the dots piece of paper and there is only one dot (starting point) on the page and the rest is like a kids scribbling and no cohesive representation of anything.

 

I have cut down enough trees in my day to know the wet shit (sap) is on the inside where the new growth is taking place and the outer bark a protection from the elements and critters that wood do harm to the tree like ants and woodpeckers. Hell put a stump on the ground, leave it and see where the termites eat first, the centre.

 

Branches die and bear no foliage or fruit. In nature they will remain until they fall off. Humans prune a tree of dead wood.

 

I could just as easily make a case here for atheism but that would be moot as it is not a pure philosophy and has no hidden meaning to life.

 

Realists would make better comparisons to the ape family and how they interact and draw conclusions they are not that much different to us. We sure as hell wood not use trees to draw any parallels.

 

My misspellings are deliberate.

I'm glad you went through the exercise in showing the flaws in his analogy. I felt to do that, but didn't put forth that effort - besides your analysis was better than what I was thinking. I appreciate End trying to find metaphors to try to describe how he sees things, but then he goes it one step further to try to say that it is a truism and that the Bible had it right, so therefore this proves the supernatural wisdom of the Bible to tell us truth about life. It's like trying to find evidence for God that is scientifically acceptable in order to validate it. That's a misguided approach to the whole affair.

 

Metaphors are fine and dandy for people to use as loose example. But the minute you make them literal, then you open them to scrutiny and they fall apart as examples. In other words trying to prove God exists like you would in researching out whether or not Bigfoot exists, brings God down to earth as just another object of scientific inquiry like an amino acid or something. It ceases to be God at that point.

 

Again to my question for End, why do you need to prove the Bible as some book of supernatural wisdom? Why do you need external validation through propping up some supernatural authority? Why are you making God a matter of rational proofs? What is lacking in you that you need to do this? Those are the questions you should be asking yourself.

[Guest end3]

End

 

I have read more on your explanations and if I were still a xian, I wood applaud with amens and hallelujahs because it seems a perfect analogy.

 

It is however not. When I first read the OP I envisioned a connect the dots piece of paper and there is only one dot (starting point) on the page and the rest is like a kids scribbling and no cohesive representation of anything.

 

I have cut down enough trees in my day to know the wet shit (sap) is on the inside where the new growth is taking place and the outer bark a protection from the elements and critters that wood do harm to the tree like ants and woodpeckers. Hell put a stump on the ground, leave it and see where the termites eat first, the centre.

 

Branches die and bear no foliage or fruit. In nature they will remain until they fall off. Humans prune a tree of dead wood.

 

I could just as easily make a case here for atheism but that would be moot as it is not a pure philosophy and has no hidden meaning to life.

 

Realists would make better comparisons to the ape family and how they interact and draw conclusions they are not that much different to us. We sure as hell wood not use trees to draw any parallels.

 

My misspellings are deliberate.

 

Both you and AM need to revisit biology class and read up on how the tree grows. Me thinks you are misrepresting the process.....severely.

 

 

Edit: And besides, the natural tree nor the family tree would be subject to infestations, disease, storms, in a perfect world (Gan)(Heaven), but they Do happen in a fallen world.

 

Watching a movie last night....one of the last lines was, "sometimes you have to be turned upside down to learn to live rightside up".

[LivingLife]

Both you and AM need to revisit biology class and read up on how the tree grows. Me thinks you are misrepresting the process.....severely.

No need to, a sapling expands as it ages the youngest rings are on the inside. Unless trees now grow differently to 40 years ago when I did biology.

Edit: And besides, the natural tree nor the family tree would be subject to infestations, disease, storms, in a perfect world (Gan)(Heaven), but they Do happen in a fallen world.

Yeah anything is possible in la la land. No arguments there.

Watching a movie last night....one of the last lines was, "sometimes you have to be turned upside down to learn to live rightside up".

Sometimes you need to read up and fact check before making incorrect analogies.

[Guest end3]

O gheeze dude. check your science. Thank goodness science updates itself...

[Antlerman]

Yes my science is right, therefore the Bible is God's word! Right?

[florduh]

Analogies (accurate to varying degrees) can be made between many things. I don't get the point of comparing a tree to Biblical mythology.

[ConureDelSol]

As hard as I try to read the OP and make sense of it, all I get out of it is "Blah blah blah Jesus." Not to be rude, just stating what me and maybe some other Ex-C's might see in this thread.

[Guest end3]

Yes my science is right, therefore the Bible is God's word! Right?

 

Why not? You asked me for my motivation. Let's see,

 

My father is an arrogant, condescending phD chemist that belittled us as children and then adulterously left our family....the children without a father.

I spend 25 years trying to figure out why I am that same way....finally understanding that I grew a tree of hate rather than a tree of love because of being fatherless.....hurt turning to anger and then hate.

 

Would it be unlike God to step in and be the father? Isn't that what Lee Strobel witnesses?

 

And then I stumble on this site......full of the same types. And you wonder why I am here "fighting"?

 

But, sir, what I have learned through relationships with people here, are that there are some truly good people that have been hurt.....and that I also fight for the truth as I know it for them.

 

So my motivations are mixed......truthfully. LL would be the former, but I expect after we get to know each other, he will be the latter.....

 

Need I pull all the Bible verses to support every thing I just said.

[Legion]

That was an awesome post in my opinion End.

 

In your vulnerability, your power and vitality shine through. Bravo.

[Ouroboros]

Analogies (accurate to varying degrees) can be made between many things. I don't get the point of comparing a tree to Biblical mythology.

Or claiming that the Biblical mythology is a "verbatim" analogy (?) of a biochemical process in the cell membranes.

 

The Journey of Odysseus is a verbatim analogy of the intestinal process of breaking down food to nutrients with the use of enzymes. Odysseus coming back home and everything has gone down the crapper, is just an literal illustration of a figure of speech (with beans) of an analogy of the symbol that we need to litter a #2 on a daily basis in a verbatim way. So there we have it. This verifies that Homer was inspired by Zeus.

 

I still don't get it. Is the Ark of the covenant a verbal instruction for infusion of intrinsic binary data of a block-signal modulator for a MMDB? I have no clue. But it sounds good.

[Antlerman]

Yes my science is right, therefore the Bible is God's word! Right?

 

Why not? You asked me for my motivation. Let's see,

 

My father is an arrogant, condescending phD chemist that belittled us as children and then adulterously left our family....the children without a father.

I spend 25 years trying to figure out why I am that same way....finally understanding that I grew a tree of hate rather than a tree of love because of being fatherless.....hurt turning to anger and then hate.

 

Would it be unlike God to step in and be the father? Isn't that what Lee Strobel witnesses?

 

And then I stumble on this site......full of the same types. And you wonder why I am here "fighting"?

 

But, sir, what I have learned through relationships with people here, are that there are some truly good people that have been hurt.....and that I also fight for the truth as I know it for them.

 

So my motivations are mixed......truthfully. LL would be the former, but I expect after we get to know each other, he will be the latter.....

 

Need I pull all the Bible verses to support every thing I just said.

I respect what you say here and where you are at in your process. But I am stressing that simply replacing one external authority for another, in this case a good one for a bad one, ultimately should have the goal of being that good adult yourself. You no longer look to a parent, but become a man in yourself. Doing that can only come through a personal, inner transformation.

 

When I see you attempt to bolster the Bible up to some of a miracle book, I see that as a deflection away from looking within. By all means use your faith, look to God in however that resonates with you, but the goal should be maturity in yourself. To me it should be the goal of any Christian to call Jesus brother, and not Lord. The church denies believers that transformation, saying only Jesus realized that. Seriously, wouldn't seeing Jesus as a peer be far more valuable, to you and everyone else? I believe you already realize this in yourself beyond your Christian friends, but for some reason (fear), you don't push off from that shore.

 

I see you still looking to 'fix' the ego from within it. Sometimes it takes just 'good enough' in order to move to the next stage, not 'fixed'. You're hanging on, when you in fact may very well be ready to dive in. That's what I believe about you anyway.

[Guest end3]

Yes my science is right, therefore the Bible is God's word! Right?

 

Why not? You asked me for my motivation. Let's see,

 

My father is an arrogant, condescending phD chemist that belittled us as children and then adulterously left our family....the children without a father.

I spend 25 years trying to figure out why I am that same way....finally understanding that I grew a tree of hate rather than a tree of love because of being fatherless.....hurt turning to anger and then hate.

 

Would it be unlike God to step in and be the father? Isn't that what Lee Strobel witnesses?

 

And then I stumble on this site......full of the same types. And you wonder why I am here "fighting"?

 

But, sir, what I have learned through relationships with people here, are that there are some truly good people that have been hurt.....and that I also fight for the truth as I know it for them.

 

So my motivations are mixed......truthfully. LL would be the former, but I expect after we get to know each other, he will be the latter.....

 

Need I pull all the Bible verses to support every thing I just said.

I respect what you say here and where you are at in your process. But I am stressing that simply replacing one external authority for another, in this case a good one for a bad one, ultimately should have the goal of being that good adult yourself. You no longer look to a parent, but become a man in yourself. Doing that can only come through a personal, inner transformation.

 

When I see you attempt to bolster the Bible up to some of a miracle book, I see that as a deflection away from looking within. By all means use your faith, look to God in however that resonates with you, but the goal should be maturity in yourself. To me it should be the goal of any Christian to call Jesus brother, and not Lord. The church denies believers that transformation, saying only Jesus realized that. Seriously, wouldn't seeing Jesus as a peer be far more valuable, to you and everyone else? I believe you already realize this in yourself beyond your Christian friends, but for some reason (fear), you don't push off from that shore.

 

I see you still looking to 'fix' the ego from within it. Sometimes it takes just 'good enough' in order to move to the next stage, not 'fixed'. You're hanging on, when you in fact may very well be ready to dive in. That's what I believe about you anyway.

 

I see me looking to find a balance between love for my dad and love of God. Ultimately, the Bible says love, period, is the answer....but I struggle with hate vs grace for dad routinely which manifests itself here.......or have you not noticed....lol.

 

i don't want to keep arguing, but the church doesn't deny, but rather facilitates the transformation with acceptance of making oneself part of the tree that promotes life. Again, the analogy is rather direct.

 

You know, LL makes a valid point. I don't know if a sapling expands, but if it does, at that stage, it also follows the analogy in that there is no telling which direction the sapling will take, or live. < insert seeds scripture here>

 

And I am trying to fix the ego.....the ego is detrimental in my case. I am not really smart like Hans, but am smart enough to hurt people with my mind.

 

Thinking back, my father would do that at the table while we were eating. It would make you feel rotten about taking another bite. It was not a terrible circumstance, and far from severe abuse, but nonetheless, it didn't work for me.

[Legion]

Many psychologists believe that emotional abuse is the worst form of abuse.

 

My stepdad fucked me up. I see that now. He used my natural longing for his acceptance and approval against me.

 

When I see him now, it's such a complex thing. I don't really fault him too much. He was fucked up himself by his own father. He's probably not even consciously aware of it all.

 

sigh

[LivingLife]

End I think you confuse me with someone that was hurt. I was not. Yeah my dad did weird things but he knew no better, he was perpetuating what he learned as a kid. We made our peace and I forgave him for the shit he did but even the shit he did was not like serious abuse. I am no fucking squeamish fucktard but the run in with teh lard and his followers made these issues to be mortal spiritual scars. Like sleeping with 30 odd women before I got married. Fuck many guys did better than me and some dudes would love to have had all that exposure. The ones suggesting this was a scar did not get too much pussy and married young.

 

I had to pray away these memories. Fuck that. No regrets there.

 

My old man beat the crap out of me and I probably deserved it in his eyes. Not his fault he fathered and inquisitive child. I nearly became my father but common sense prevailed and I stopped giving my kids the belt and started to sit down and talk and apply other punishments. They turned out OK. They are not supposed to be clones of me or my wife.

 

The real hurt if you want to call it that was being conned out of over USD300k in tithes. You know at the time I could have bought at least 10-15 houses cash in my town, they were that cheap. The income from rent or resale a decade later would have me on easy street right now. That is where my anger is focussed, on me for being so fucking gullible. Hard times kicked long before I deconverted and teh church clearly had no more use for me as a non thither. They even started pushing me out of the P&W team as I no longer needed to be up there with all my smoking, and mild beer drinking. While the money flowed, the other shit was of no consequence. And I really though this was mhai ministry.

 

Questions led to research and seeking answers and here I am years later. The why never got answered but the what certainly did. [/rant over]

 

Now as to samplings expanding doh! How else to trees get big trunks? Of course they expand. The direction is up and outwards and that is because trees reach for the sun to get what they need. This is what happens in forests and trees with only high altitude foliage.

 

You common garden variety tree like a peach tree will spread horizontally and not gain much altitude. This is to gather as much sun and CO₂ for bearing more fruit so that it can propagate itself. All trees act differently. The only thing in common is that the girth of the trunks increase annually. Some trees need animals to eat the fruit and spread the seed that way, other's make use of the wind. Some trees replicate themselves by simply shooting forth a new shoot from a common root system and spread by expansion. There are so many varieties I can think of. There is no constant way they do it.

 

Lots of saplings don't make it to adulthood as they are eaten as juicy morsels by herbivores.

 

I know a shitload more than this jesus fella ever did so no way could he be god and so uninformed.

 

One should not have to make excuses to my challenges. All I do is hold your god to a far higher standard than you do. He is after all god that instapoofed everything into existence. he could have simply used the sky as a display and made pikchas appear and explained everything. No he had to revert to sheep, wheat and weeds to convey a point. that makes him very human and only human IMO. Everything else allegedly was mere embellishments. He fails as admirably as all the pantheon gods the other folk had invented.

[Kurari]

I think this process is a pretty good example of how science works as God does.

 

So in nature there is lignification:

 

lignification

the process of turning into wood or becoming woodlike.

 

The plant grows and through the process, green stems and leaves are formed and converted into wood and the plant structure gets stronger. The structure then us used to support the transference of the water and nutrients to subsequent new growth. Basically, I am also understanding that it from latin root word. I am also understanding latin goes back maybe 100 years BC.

 

And being a Christian, the process seems relevant comparatively.

 

So let's move it to a family scenario....we have a family "tree"....let's say the parents are the trunk and the children are the leaves that become limbs, and then parents/trunks themselves some day.

 

Per the fallen/broken world scenario presented in the Bible...the limbs perhaps get broken by a strong wind or storm or maybe they become too heavy for the trunk structure to support. So inevitably, leaves and branchs, or even the entire tree can be injured or broken and will die.

 

So it's not hard to move this to the family tree comparison. For whatever reason, we as limbs pretty much break from the family tree. Our own independence, fights, "storms" if you will. I think we can all attest to this. Or the trunk gets divorced from itself and the tree fails....for whatever reason. <Insert everyone's story here>.

 

So here's the key, the plan of reunification is in the Bible as well. Looking into the audience at church today, or ANYWHERE for that matter, we view a myriad of broken off leaves, broken branches, and spintered trunks in the form of family pieces separated from each other, again, for a myriad of reasons. So now we have a large quantity of broken off people.....limbs, leaves, and splintered trunks unhappy and disgruntled with life. Most, I would think, become part of another organization, but the Christian process is very close to the lignification process in many, many aspects. I will be happy to get the relevant scripture, but for expedience sake.....

 

We are swayed back and forth by the wind being new growth.

We get stronger in our position as older Christians.....becoming heartwood separate from the new growth.

In communion, we don't so much need the nutrients for ourselves (die to self in Christianeze), but are the chruch that is the support mechanism that move the nutrients/water to the new growth.

There is the armor of God as there is the bark of a tree.

The water and nutrients form the roots are similar to the life and Holy Spirit of Christ moving in the sap of the tree.

The process is done "in secret"

Christ hung on a cross (wood), much like the life of the tree is hanging on the exterior of the structure.

And the chemical process of lignification, based on a cursory look, reminds me of the church gathering the Spriit to help the new Christians as the process sequesters carbon to strengthen the cell walls.

 

I could go on.

 

The point is, here we have a natural, physical process that is described verbatim in the Bible, but happens to humanity.

 

And, we have a "re-lignin", or the process that unifies us again in the Tree of Life......broken tree parts that all meet to reform the tree that they were broken from.

 

Basically, Ex-C is a tree of life, but I think the root of the tree belongs to Christ.

 

What say ye.

 

Edit: I just don't see that this was observable to the people of that day in this type detail, yet matches wonderfully with the Biblical account.......which strengthens my belief.

 

Well, this is certainly one of the more interesting analogies I have seen. Trees require care to become strong and healthy, and I've found much better sources to strengthen the wood of my family tree through secular means. Thanks anyway.

[mymistake]

Both you and AM need to revisit biology class and read up on how the tree grows. Me thinks you are misrepresting the process.....severely.

 

Nope. The problem is that you project that onto the Bible and as a "should" on social structures. It isn't so. You are preaching and your preaching doesn't mean a third party doesn't understand science.

[Ouroboros]

Both you and AM need to revisit biology class and read up on how the tree grows. Me thinks you are misrepresting the process.....severely.

 

Nope. The problem is that you project that onto the Bible and as a "should" on social structures. It isn't so. You are preaching and your preaching doesn't mean a third party doesn't understand science.

If he had stuck to the tree analogy and social/family structures, I think I would understand the analogy better. I just can't get over the "verbatim analogy" phraseology in respect of the Bible. Verbatim means literal, direct, exact, word-by-word, and I can't remember (after reading the Bible many times over) that there's any "biochemical lignification process" ever mentioned or described in there. Yes, the Bible talks about strong family, but also that people should give up their family to follow Jesus, i.e. burn the tree down, which is also related to "lignin". More lignin compound, the better it burns (pyrolysis of lignin during combustion of wood). So I guess breaking up and separating families is encouraged from the BIble in a analogous way and supported by science too.

[midniterider]

Seems to me that if I was struggling with anger and hate I wouldnt want to listen to a sermon at church then try to evangelize a group of apostates on ex-c. Unless I got some perverse pleasure by being bitched at. :-) I would either quit the church or quit ex-c. It might be more productive to try saving people who are receptive to the idea. But to each his own.

[Ouroboros]

Seems to me that if I was struggling with anger and hate I wouldnt want to listen to a sermon at church then try to evangelize a group of apostates on ex-c. Unless I got some perverse pleasure by being bitched at. :-) I would either quit the church or quit ex-c. It might be more productive to try saving people who are receptive to the idea. But to each his own.

And knowing one's own failure, weaknesses, and issues, and then deal with them honestly, is taking a responsible approach to solving it, instead of making references to imaginary friends and analogies that can be interpreted a million ways. I'm not sure I understand the idea of solving problems by creating more vague symbols for things that can be explained more simplistic and directly.

[Guest end3]

Both you and AM need to revisit biology class and read up on how the tree grows. Me thinks you are misrepresting the process.....severely.

 

Nope. The problem is that you project that onto the Bible and as a "should" on social structures. It isn't so. You are preaching and your preaching doesn't mean a third party doesn't understand science.

If he had stuck to the tree analogy and social/family structures, I think I would understand the analogy better. I just can't get over the "verbatim analogy" phraseology in respect of the Bible. Verbatim means literal, direct, exact, word-by-word, and I can't remember (after reading the Bible many times over) that there's any "biochemical lignification process" ever mentioned or described in there. Yes, the Bible talks about strong family, but also that people should give up their family to follow Jesus, i.e. burn the tree down, which is also related to "lignin". More lignin compound, the better it burns (pyrolysis of lignin during combustion of wood). So I guess breaking up and separating families is encouraged from the BIble in a analogous way and supported by science too.

 

I would speculate at this point that there is a physiological process that happens when love is given vs. abuse. I'm willing to wager

[Ouroboros]

I would speculate at this point that there is a physiological process that happens when love is given vs. abuse. I'm willing to wager

So which part do you consider to be the process of "strengthening" family structure? Abuse, love, hate, firmness? There are so many levels and grades of every part, and it's impossible to say exactly what is the best for a certain family and not. Do you know that there is a danger of overprotecting kids out of love? Or that some parents have misguided love for their children (or just one)?

 

I'm with Aristotle that there's a mean, middle, to everything. You have to be strict, out of love. You can't be abusive... but... the exact line for abusive is extremely difficult to set sometimes. Of course, physical abuse is wrong. But some argue that spanking can have positive effects, but is that abuse or strictness out of love? We spanked our first child, mostly because our church told us that it was the right thing to do and the Bible supported it. We realized, however, that it was not working for us. We never spanked our other children. We have other means of punishment, but physical is not one of them. Then you have verbal abuse. Is that abuse or not? What is it really? Is nagging that the kid has to do their own laundry abuse? Is making them do chores? What is abuse and what is not? What is love and what is not? These things are very difficult to define exactly. We have a general opinion, which is very culturally based, and not absolute in time and space. What we consider abuse in society today was not abuse 200 years ago. We have different standards. So what makes a family strong? What is the "lignification" process in a family, to be precise? According to your opening post, this definition is exactly defined in the Bible. I don't see it. Leaving your father and mother to follow Jesus isn't building stronger family ties. I know people who did it... I had friends who left family to follow Jesus in our church. It didn't make their family stronger one single bit. But it was Biblical. Then they got married, had children, and spanked their children into obedience because the Bible said it. Their children rebelled when they got old enough to move out and they never spoke to their parents. So three generations split and never talked, because they followed Biblical principles of "lignification" of family. These things are not "speculations" but real experiences. Luckily, I was never one of them. I never left my family for Jesus, neither did I abuse my kids. My parents never abused me either, so perhaps that's the answer. Abuse breeds abuse... Perhaps only if you're strong enough--You, not Jesus--can you break the ties to this family curse?

[Guest end3]

I would speculate at this point that there is a physiological process that happens when love is given vs. abuse. I'm willing to wager

So which part do you consider to be the process of "strengthening" family structure? Abuse, love, hate, firmness? There are so many levels and grades of every part, and it's impossible to say exactly what is the best for a certain family and not. Do you know that there is a danger of overprotecting kids out of love? Or that some parents have misguided love for their children (or just one)?

 

I'm with Aristotle that there's a mean, middle, to everything. You have to be strict, out of love. You can't be abusive... but... the exact line for abusive is extremely difficult to set sometimes. Of course, physical abuse is wrong. But some argue that spanking can have positive effects, but is that abuse or strictness out of love? We spanked our first child, mostly because our church told us that it was the right thing to do and the Bible supported it. We realized, however, that it was not working for us. We never spanked our other children. We have other means of punishment, but physical is not one of them. Then you have verbal abuse. Is that abuse or not? What is it really? Is nagging that the kid has to do their own laundry abuse? Is making them do chores? What is abuse and what is not? What is love and what is not? These things are very difficult to define exactly. We have a general opinion, which is very culturally based, and not absolute in time and space. What we consider abuse in society today was not abuse 200 years ago. We have different standards. So what makes a family strong? What is the "lignification" process in a family, to be precise? According to your opening post, this definition is exactly defined in the Bible. I don't see it. Leaving your father and mother to follow Jesus isn't building stronger family ties. I know people who did it... I had friends who left family to follow Jesus in our church. It didn't make their family stronger one single bit. But it was Biblical. Then they got married, had children, and spanked their children into obedience because the Bible said it. Their children rebelled when they got old enough to move out and they never spoke to their parents. So three generations split and never talked, because they followed Biblical principles of "lignification" of family. These things are not "speculations" but real experiences. Luckily, I was never one of them. I never left my family for Jesus, neither did I abuse my kids. My parents never abused me either, so perhaps that's the answer. Abuse breeds abuse... Perhaps only if you're strong enough--You, not Jesus--can you break the ties to this family curse?

I think you are correct. I don't see any of us being supremely adept at defining the line. I think it takes consideration of the other party to define what is "life" and not symbolic "death" for that person. And, the inabiltiy to do that falls on Jesus instead of shouldering it ourselves. How can we live oursevles if we are constantly burdened. Crap, I don't know, it's a good question.

[midniterider]

I would speculate at this point that there is a physiological process that happens when love is given vs. abuse. I'm willing to wager

So which part do you consider to be the process of "strengthening" family structure? Abuse, love, hate, firmness? There are so many levels and grades of every part, and it's impossible to say exactly what is the best for a certain family and not. Do you know that there is a danger of overprotecting kids out of love? Or that some parents have misguided love for their children (or just one)?

 

I'm with Aristotle that there's a mean, middle, to everything. You have to be strict, out of love. You can't be abusive... but... the exact line for abusive is extremely difficult to set sometimes. Of course, physical abuse is wrong. But some argue that spanking can have positive effects, but is that abuse or strictness out of love? We spanked our first child, mostly because our church told us that it was the right thing to do and the Bible supported it. We realized, however, that it was not working for us. We never spanked our other children. We have other means of punishment, but physical is not one of them. Then you have verbal abuse. Is that abuse or not? What is it really? Is nagging that the kid has to do their own laundry abuse? Is making them do chores? What is abuse and what is not? What is love and what is not? These things are very difficult to define exactly. We have a general opinion, which is very culturally based, and not absolute in time and space. What we consider abuse in society today was not abuse 200 years ago. We have different standards. So what makes a family strong? What is the "lignification" process in a family, to be precise? According to your opening post, this definition is exactly defined in the Bible. I don't see it. Leaving your father and mother to follow Jesus isn't building stronger family ties. I know people who did it... I had friends who left family to follow Jesus in our church. It didn't make their family stronger one single bit. But it was Biblical. Then they got married, had children, and spanked their children into obedience because the Bible said it. Their children rebelled when they got old enough to move out and they never spoke to their parents. So three generations split and never talked, because they followed Biblical principles of "lignification" of family. These things are not "speculations" but real experiences. Luckily, I was never one of them. I never left my family for Jesus, neither did I abuse my kids. My parents never abused me either, so perhaps that's the answer. Abuse breeds abuse... Perhaps only if you're strong enough--You, not Jesus--can you break the ties to this family curse?

I think you are correct. I don't see any of us being supremely adept at defining the line. I think it takes consideration of the other party to define what is "life" and not symbolic "death" for that person. And, the inabiltiy to do that falls on Jesus instead of shouldering it ourselves. How can we live oursevles if we are constantly burdened. Crap, I don't know, it's a good question.

 

 

So , is Jesus handling that anger and hatred for you?