Lignification

[midniterider]

 

 

I think I saw the show with that guy in it. lulz. The cave paintings show something of a generic round shape in the sky so it must have been a spaceship.

[Legion]

We'll make great pets.

[Antlerman]

So, discussing the kenosis as Asaner described, the inner strength was the only clue to the weirdness currently residing in me. Later, again, as you and I had discussed, I ran into a fringe evangelical crowd. Types, shadows, Chuck Swindol, and a new Father to boot. So, the inner strength was reconciled to Christ and there you are.

I'm confused by what you mean here. When I read what Asanerman posted and how he concluded it with you finding your Kenosis, I got what he meant. In fact, when I read him it is like reading what I would post, just older and wiser than me. But when I read what you said, something doesn't jibe right. What do you mean by kenosis? What you do you mean by inner strength? I hear more that to mean "self-reliance", take pride in yourself, be strong in your ego structures. When I say inner truth, I don't mean that. When I hear Asaner say kenosis, I understand it in the way of self-emptying to find your true nature - one where our paltry ego strength is but an ant in the face of the infinite.

 

And I do find peace with my own relationship with Christ, real comfort, not make believe.....actual rest.

Rest in what way? Describe that to me.

 

Again K, the only clue I have to launching a new boat is the inner strength thing.

Describe what that inner strength looks like and/or is experienced by you? What is that? Before when I told you to look within you balked at that.

[Guest end3]

We'll make great pets.

 

I love that glass half full kind of thinking.

[Guest end3]

I'm confused by what you mean here. When I read what Asanerman posted and how he concluded it with you finding your Kenosis, I got what he meant. In fact, when I read him it is like reading what I would post, just older and wiser than me. But when I read what you said, something doesn't jibe right. What do you mean by kenosis? What you do you mean by inner strength? I hear more that to mean "self-reliance", take pride in yourself, be strong in your ego structures. When I say inner truth, I don't mean that. When I hear Asaner say kenosis, I understand it in the way of self-emptying to find your true nature - one where our paltry ego strength is but an ant in the face of the infinite.

Those were my memories from childhood. I don't reconcile them to ego-centric, but I am no expert. Perhaps a 5 to ten year old is capable? If so, ego would have been genuine and without condemnation. Why would the joy to climb or the drive to win be wrong with no alterior motives. I had none, just emotion to do so.

Rest in what way? Describe that to me.

I can do rote prayer....specifically the Lord's prayer, and move to physiological calmness. I can get a new revelatiion and feel like it is specific to me. These things calm me. The latter, I can rationalize away like many here, but some are so specific, they are hard for me to dismiss.

 

Describe what that inner strength looks like and/or is experienced by you? What is that? Before when I tell you to look within you balked at that.

 

Kind of like, I can do all things through God who strengthens me. Strength without fear.

 

Edit: And Linus doing his verbal dissertation....A Charlie Brown Christmas seemed to resonate....Luke 2:12.

[Guest end3]

So when I got into Christianity, there was the fundamental take on, you have to be "x" before you can have the Holy Spirit. Which I thought and argued to be incorrect......which left people scratching their heads. When you walk into a church with an idea of correct doctrine and have no past doctrine, then it leaves people bewildered. As a child, we were taken to church, but I was not cognizant. Maybe I did retain something, but not with any understanding. I remember Methodists can leave pieces of soggy bread in the grape juice whilst dipping the bread.

[midniterider]

So where does the lumberjack and the chainsaw fall in this tree analogy?

[Guest end3]

So where does the lumberjack and the chainsaw fall in this tree analogy?

 

Could be twofold depending on the tree being cut. If you are looking at the family tree, I would assume there could be things that are destructive to that tree.....divorce, adultry, etc. I had metioned high certainty in this regard....that I am unaware of anyone not having something destructive within their families.

 

If we are discussing the re-unification, or the church tree, then a myriad of things can be destructive to that.....but the Bible calls for faith and perserverence and grace for others in order to keep that tree standing.

[Ouroboros]

The point is, here we have a natural, physical process that is described verbatim in the Bible, but happens to humanity.

 

No. It's not "verbatim". Look up the word verbatim and read what it means. Can you provide the Bible verses where this supposed physical process is described verbatim?

 

No, but it sure seems analogously exact.

Exactly which part? I don't get it. I'm not even sure I understand how something can be "analogously exact."

[Ouroboros]

Tell me for real, I won't be hurt, who of you can't actually understand the comparison.

I don't.

 

---

 

The reason is that "lignification" has to do with cells hardening and becoming wood. And this hardening is caused by an incrustation of lignin.

 

In other words, the Bible is talking about how people are hardening their hearts, just like the cell walls, and the sinners become woodlike. Am I getting this right?

 

"lignin , a highly polymerized and complex chemical compound especially common in woody plants. The cellulose walls of the wood become impregnated with lignin, a process called lignification, which greatly increases the strength and hardness of the cell and gives the necessary rigidity to the tree. It is essential to woody plants in order that they stand erect."

(Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th edition)

[Guest end3]

Tell me for real, I won't be hurt, who of you can't actually understand the comparison.

I don't.

 

---

 

The reason is that "lignification" has to do with cells hardening and becoming wood. And this hardening is caused by an incrustation of lignin.

 

In other words, the Bible is talking about how people are hardening their hearts, just like the cell walls, and the sinners become woodlike. Am I getting this right?

 

Not hardening their hearts but strengthening their faith, the church, becoming unified like celluose and essentially dead of their own need like the heartwood.

 

And then you look at the cross with Christ on it. The cross is the tree or the structure, and Christ is the nutrients, sap, "alive in Christ" new leaves. Christ would also be the bark as the armor of God protecting the tree.

[Ouroboros]

Not hardening their hearts but strengthening their faith, the church, becoming unified like celluose and essentially dead of their own need like the heartwood.

 

And then you look at the cross with Christ on it. The cross is the tree or the structure, and Christ is the nutrients, sap, "alive in Christ" new leaves. Christ would also be the bark as the armor of God protecting the tree.

I still don't get it. Have you looked up what "lignification" really is? I added the quote from Columbia Encyclopedia in that post, but I'll do it again here:

 

"lignin , a highly polymerized and complex chemical compound especially common in woody plants. The cellulose walls of the wood become impregnated with lignin, a process called lignification, which greatly increases the strength and hardness of the cell and gives the necessary rigidity to the tree. It is essential to woody plants in order that they stand erect."

 

In other words, "lignification" has to do with the process of the cell walls hardening. So I don't see the analogy with Jesus on the cross... He got hard as wood? (sorry the joke, but I'm trying to see what the correlation here is...)

 

Also, wood with high dose of lignin burns better. Does that reflect any analogy to Christians?

[Deva]

End: I have read this thread, and as usual, I don't understand what you are saying. Yet there is something about you that is just so.. appealing. One thing is for sure - you have some very unusual views. I appreciate that.

[mymistake]

Not hardening their hearts but strengthening their faith, the church, becoming unified like celluose and essentially dead of their own need like the heartwood.

 

And then you look at the cross with Christ on it. The cross is the tree or the structure, and Christ is the nutrients, sap, "alive in Christ" new leaves. Christ would also be the bark as the armor of God protecting the tree.

 

I think you are preaching. I'm not saying that in a negative way. I'm just trying to identify what is going on. You are taking ideas you find from multiple sources and applying the to an ideal you have about how a social group should operate. This is the type of thing a pastor does to make his living.

[hereticzero]

Nope, I don't see the similarity. I could find similarities in the bible by turning it upside down and reading it in the mirror.

[Guest end3]

Not hardening their hearts but strengthening their faith, the church, becoming unified like celluose and essentially dead of their own need like the heartwood.

 

And then you look at the cross with Christ on it. The cross is the tree or the structure, and Christ is the nutrients, sap, "alive in Christ" new leaves. Christ would also be the bark as the armor of God protecting the tree.

 

I think you are preaching. I'm not saying that in a negative way. I'm just trying to identify what is going on. You are taking ideas you find from multiple sources and applying the to an ideal you have about how a social group should operate. This is the type of thing a pastor does to make his living.

 

I am taking the process of lignification and comparing it to the Christian process of maturation. Y'all are stumped, aren't you. Get it, ex-Christians, stumped.

[mymistake]

Not hardening their hearts but strengthening their faith, the church, becoming unified like celluose and essentially dead of their own need like the heartwood.

 

And then you look at the cross with Christ on it. The cross is the tree or the structure, and Christ is the nutrients, sap, "alive in Christ" new leaves. Christ would also be the bark as the armor of God protecting the tree.

 

I think you are preaching. I'm not saying that in a negative way. I'm just trying to identify what is going on. You are taking ideas you find from multiple sources and applying the to an ideal you have about how a social group should operate. This is the type of thing a pastor does to make his living.

 

I am taking the process of lignification and comparing it to the Christian process of maturation.

 

Yes, it's something you are doing. It's a connection you make. It's not something found in the Bible. You have every right to call it your own idea.

[Guest end3]

Nope, I don't see the similarity. I could find similarities in the bible by turning it upside down and reading it in the mirror.

 

I'll try one more time for you HZ. I think Hans gets it, he is just a master-patronizer.

 

If we look at a natural tree, the new growth is turned into the older growth, into wood, via lignification. Ultimately the oldest part of the tree is the heart, or heartwood, as generations of the living part of the tree are added annually. The exterior is where the life is....the moving sap, the new limbs, new leaves in need of the nutrients and water. The entire stucture is supported by the roots and the structure that is the trunk and older limbs that really don't need the nutrients themselves, but serve to carry the nutrients and water to the new growth. In a perfect world the tree just grows and grows into a magestic thing and produces fruit.

 

But ultimately, it's not in a perfect world, strong storms, lightning, men with chainsaws, the weight of it's own prosperity.....whatever, serves as a catayst to break a portion of the tree, or uproot it, destroy it. Now you have tree parts that die due to separation, or the tree is not complete, or it has scars that have to heal.....or a tree that doesn't trive as it would do in it's complete form. Also there are infestations the tree to which the tree might succumb.

 

So applying this to the human, family tree model, picture two parents as the trunk, a couple of children as the limbs. Now apply the aforementioned possiblilites to the family tree. The new babies relying on the support of the older limbs and trunk, the structure, being fed and watered as they themselves become parents. So now you have a tree derived of people. The forefathers would be the deep heartwood of the tree, having died, but still a portion of the history of the tree...the foundation. The sapwood would be newer generations of parents, and the limbs and twigs would be today's generation of humanity. So you have layers, generations of humanity, just like the rings of a tree.

 

Now, in our imperfect "fallen" world, we have a myriad of events that can not only destroy a natural tree, but also our family trees. I think we all can attest to this.

 

With that said, we have all kinds of family tree parts here and there, some dying of lonliness(separation), some of infection, some not thriving....etc.

 

Christianity offers a restoration of the tree in that we accept to rejoin in faith to rebuild the tree, not in a physical sense, but a spiritual sense with physical sprinkled in. So you have individual parts coming back together being strengthened (lignified) by the Holy Spirit and fed/watered by the Root, Christ. The structure of the Tree to support the new converts (the twigs and small limbs) and the older converts (the olderconverts) serving the newer converts, and the "dead to self" Christians, those of the heartwood, that are ultimately the foundation of the layers/rings/history of Christianity. They don't need the nutrients, the water for themselves, but ultimately give their life for the structure and life of the tree. The entire thing is given life by Christ's blood and water (life and spirit) circulating through the broken parts. A new tree built of faith/trust.

 

The thing that makes it work is the strenthening of the parts by the faith of the structure.....miraculously like liginfication. The limbs become the foundation. WOOD.

 

Now, picture the cross as the trunk and a crucified Christ on the exterior of the cross, aka "tree". We are all one tree but made of indiviually broken pieces in "re-lignin" A new tree.

 

We all are made a part of the cross, the wood, the tree through faithfully joining in strengthening and life through Christ in sacrifice becoming unified,......keep in mind wood is all one in the end, celluose.

 

Kind of a perfect fit. And I think it is more than a coincedence. How can observation alone do this.

Hope that helps.

[Guest end3]

So we have soft science and hard science with high certainty written under one "textbook" appropriate for the age of the people. My problem is when we read a textbook, do we understand all the stuff being taught at the time we read it?

[hereticzero]

Oh, well that makes all the difference in the world! Uhm, nope, still don't see the significance. The whole Jesus-thingy as a sacrifice sort of makes the whole argument of any cruci-fiction just more fiction no matter how it is symbolized. In my opinion, the OT prophet Jeremiah blew the Christian doctrine of Jesus dying as a sacrifice, out of the water, which means no matter how you look at it, the cruci-fiction just doesn't carry wood.

[midniterider]

And that's the whole key to your problem End. You need to see the Bible validated as a miracle book. Why??? Why is that important to you? Answer, you're looking to find validation outside yourself. And you will fail, always.

What qualities do we possess that are worthy of self validation? I should punch my own card? I want to get back to this in a minute.

 

We possess

And that's the whole key to your problem End. You need to see the Bible validated as a miracle book. Why??? Why is that important to you? Answer, you're looking to find validation outside yourself. And you will fail, always.

What qualities do we possess that are worthy of self validation? I should punch my own card? I want to get back to this in a minute.

 

Whatever qualities you look for in god are in yourself. The kingdom of god is inside you, right? Just take what you normally call Jesus and change the name to End3, then merge those two parts together. Then cut the 'super' off supernatural and enjoy your natural self! :-)

[Guest end3]

Oh, well that makes all the difference in the world! Uhm, nope, still don't see the significance.

 

I have a hard time understanding that you don't see the significance HZ. Even from a rational standpoint, lignification and rebuilding the "tree" are readily accepted and observable to high degrees of certainty. Crap, Ex-C is it's own tree manifested the same way but can't define Source/Coherence. What more do you want?

[Guest end3]

And that's the whole key to your problem End. You need to see the Bible validated as a miracle book. Why??? Why is that important to you? Answer, you're looking to find validation outside yourself. And you will fail, always.

What qualities do we possess that are worthy of self validation? I should punch my own card? I want to get back to this in a minute.

 

We possess

And that's the whole key to your problem End. You need to see the Bible validated as a miracle book. Why??? Why is that important to you? Answer, you're looking to find validation outside yourself. And you will fail, always.

What qualities do we possess that are worthy of self validation? I should punch my own card? I want to get back to this in a minute.

 

Whatever qualities you look for in god are in yourself. The kingdom of god is inside you, right? Just take what you normally call Jesus and change the name to End3, then merge those two parts together. Then cut the 'super' off supernatural and enjoy your natural self! :-)

 

Thanks MR, I shall consider.

[midniterider]

, but!.....it relies on constant feedings....deny it church time, deny it socialization with other Christians, deny it bible time, deny it the mental feeding of Jesus bullshit that it needs to survive and eventually the sloth of Christianity evaporates. Like addiction to heroin, Christianity is a lifestyle. You become like the people with whom you socialize. Stop socializing with drug users and you remove one of the motivations to use drugs. Stop socializing with Christians and you remove one of the motivations to lock down your mind for Jesus. Just say "No!" Don't feed the Jesus.

 

That's actually funny. I can rationally see your point. I probably won't accept it, but I can see it as a possibility. Thanks.

 

 

Edit: Realistically, I did have a problem with my life.......confirmed with people like Lee Strobel.....bascally the same story that I lived.

 

True, everyone has problems. Some people have severe problems. Let me more precisely word what I said previously to: "Christians like to convince people that they have a problem called sin that only Jesus can solve." There we go, much better. I can still disagree with this new statement... :-) Sin is a false charge against humanity. Jesus is the false solution.

[Guest end3]

, but!.....it relies on constant feedings....deny it church time, deny it socialization with other Christians, deny it bible time, deny it the mental feeding of Jesus bullshit that it needs to survive and eventually the sloth of Christianity evaporates. Like addiction to heroin, Christianity is a lifestyle. You become like the people with whom you socialize. Stop socializing with drug users and you remove one of the motivations to use drugs. Stop socializing with Christians and you remove one of the motivations to lock down your mind for Jesus. Just say "No!" Don't feed the Jesus.

 

That's actually funny. I can rationally see your point. I probably won't accept it, but I can see it as a possibility. Thanks.

 

 

Edit: Realistically, I did have a problem with my life.......confirmed with people like Lee Strobel.....bascally the same story that I lived.

 

True, everyone has problems. Some people have severe problems. Let me more precisely word what I said previously to: "Christians like to convince people that they have a problem called sin that only Jesus can solve." There we go, much better. I can still disagree with this new statement... :-) Sin is a false charge against humanity. Jesus is the false solution.

 

That's ok, but I disagree for this reason. My perspective of sin is those decisions, actions, that fail to produce life, for ourselves or others. I can't see that I am able to adequately choose, and therefore sin. Perhaps if I were smart enough....but I'm not.