So Lying And Cheating Is Ok Then?

[Denyoz]

I'm having a hard time with morality issues. Who or what is our source of morality now? It used to be so simple when I was a christian. No lying and no cheating EVER. Jesus was the role model.

 

Who is our role model now? Seems like I have to make up my own moral rules as I go along, and with children to raise, I often wonder what I should teach them?

 

What is the rule concerning lying and cheating? "As long as you don't get caught and don't hurt anyone, it's ok to lie and cheat." Is that it?

[mymistake]

Yeah I had this problem too. It sucks to be brainwashed for all those years.

 

Now I do good things because I want good to happen. I don't need any other reason. It turns out all that Christian propaganda is lies. You decide if you want to do good or evil. You decide if you want to live with the consequences. You decide what kind of footprint you will leave on this world. When you believe you can get away from something and never get caught that is when your true character will be revealed in the choices you make. If you decide to do good in times like that - with no reward - then smile to yourself. Only you really can know what you will do. It's between you and yourself. It turns out that most actions effect others. In turn those results can come back to us. Do you want good things to happen or bad? Even if you don't feel the consequences you know that you made a difference.

 

It's a different mindset. Instead of working for an eternal goal the actions you take right now have much more meaning. However it's a meaning you give them.

[blackpudd1n]

My moral compass is pretty simple: I need to make sure I can look myself in the eyes every day. I need to be able to live with the consequences of every decision I make.

 

You may find the Wiccan Creed helpful: "and it harm none, do what you want." So basically, you can do whatever you want in life, as long as your actions are not intentionally harmful to anyone else.

[Ouroboros]

I'm having a hard time with morality issues. Who or what is our source of morality now? It used to be so simple when I was a christian. No lying and no cheating EVER. Jesus was the role model.

Jesus wasn't completely honest. He says that he talk in riddles because the truth was to be hidden from the Jews. Well, that's a form of lying.

 

Secondly, Jesus cheated when he had his disciples pick food on the field on Sabbath. His excuse was that he was the son of God and could bend the rules. That's cheating.

 

Ergo, Jesus is no role model for "no lying."

[ConureDelSol]

I'm about to sound all sciency:

 

From a evolutionary point of view, what we call morality comes from our social interactions. What we define as "good" is when we get something or we help someone and receive some sort of recognition for what we did. "Bad" is experienced when the people around you don't care for a particular action you perform and often chastise you and may be unwilling to aid you down the road.

 

Even chimpazees show altruism. Some chimps will share rocks they use to open different fruits and nuts. In that situation, both chimps benefit and the chimp that was shared with is more likely to share his/her own rock later with the chimp that shared the rock in the first place.

 

This whole thing I typed made a lot more sense in my head...

[London]

One thing I have learned is "if you think it's wrong, you are probably right". I personally knew that, but when a friend said it out loud to someone else, it just resonated with me.

[Thackerie]

The Golden Rule still works for me. You can use it without fear of slipping back into Christianity. It was invented long before Jesus.

[mymistake]

One thing I have learned is "if you think it's wrong, you are probably right". I personally knew that, but when a friend said it out loud to someone else, it just resonated with me.

 

That doesn't work if you were emotionally abused as a child. Maybe it does for the well adjusted.

[Ouroboros]

The Golden Rule still works for me. You can use it without fear of slipping back into Christianity. It was invented long before Jesus.

Exactly. We also have the "Silver Rule": Don't to to others what you wouldn't want done to you.

 

The Silver Rule is more of a minimalist view. Don't hurt others. The Golden Rule is taking it one step further: Do to others what you want done to you. In other words, help out, support, encourage, heal, feed, ...

 

And then the even more minimal rule is: Don't hurt yourself. And lying, stealing, cheating, destroying other people's property, can all ultimately come back and harm yourself. Lying all the time... people will notice, learn, and start to account for that when dealing with you. They might avoid contact, or simply not include you in prospects and projects since they can't trust you. In other words, lying, stealing, cheating, and destroying can have really bad karma.

[Zephie]

Lying isn't always bad. Sometimes it can save a life...like during genocidal wars....hiding others for their safety and lying about it is okay. Hiding a serial killer and lying about it....not so much. Cheating is something I quite enjoy whilst playing video games but don't do to someone in a relationship. It's all a matter of perspective. Is what you are doing going to hurt someone else? You know what's right and what's not. We've all got a set of universal morals built into us. All that good stuff you did when you were a Christian...you can still do it now just to help someone for their good. No worries about pleasing sky-daddy.

[Ouroboros]

No worries about pleasing sky-daddy.

One aspect that I adopted years ago is the view that I do have a "higher being" to be accountable to. Not God. Not an external power or being. But myself in the future. The person I will be in 10 years from now will look back (if I'm still alive) and wonder "what the Hell did I do that for?" So what I do today will be judged by a future-me. And the future-me will pay the price or get the rewards for what I do now.

[London]

One thing I have learned is "if you think it's wrong, you are probably right". I personally knew that, but when a friend said it out loud to someone else, it just resonated with me.

 

That doesn't work if you were emotionally abused as a child. Maybe it does for the well adjusted.

 

I hear what you are saying MM, but I have to disagree. In some circumstances people, in spite of the abuse, do feel when a situation is wrong. I have a friend who is now a police officer because she felt like the early abuse was not "normal".

[VacuumFlux]

I base my morality on empathy. I'm highly empathetic, so I get upset and feel pain myself when other people are hurting. For people like me, the golden rule comes naturally. The two things I had to learn were to trust my sense of empathy even when authority figures told me that certain people don't deserve my concern (or that I should leave them to suffer because of some abstract greater good), and to recognise that I am morally obligated take care of myself because that's the only way to have something to give to help others instead of being a drain on them.

 

For people who aren't that level of empathetic, "enlightened self interest" seems to work out pretty well. There is no such thing as selfless altruism because we are part of the whole, therefore helping others helps us too. Or at least giving money to help some poor people way over in some other part of the world gives us warm fuzzies. Don't be ashamed of the warm fuzzies, as if your giving would somehow be more pure if it hurt you more.

 

Either way, it boils down to the fact that we are a social species, so a large portion of being good (ie, playing well with other) comes to us naturally. Just encourage what's already there.

 

Who is our role model now? Seems like I have to make up my own moral rules as I go along, and with children to raise, I often wonder what I should teach them?

 

Not being in this situation myself, I don't have much experience with that, but here's a website that I've read one or two things from that I liked:

http://www.parentingbeyondbelief.com/

Oh, the main page there is mostly about the books, but there's links to the blogs along the side, for stuff to just read on the internet.

[Vigile]

Long answer, it's complicated and involved. Short answer, do what you want as long as you don't hurt anyone emotionally or physically.

[blackpudd1n]

No worries about pleasing sky-daddy.

One aspect that I adopted years ago is the view that I do have a "higher being" to be accountable to. Not God. Not an external power or being. But myself in the future. The person I will be in 10 years from now will look back (if I'm still alive) and wonder "what the Hell did I do that for?" So what I do today will be judged by a future-me. And the future-me will pay the price or get the rewards for what I do now.

 

That's kind of the way I look at it, though I said it somewhat differently.

 

Much of my moral inclinations come from the things that I detest others doing. These things include intimidation, greed, manipulation, a sense of entitlement, egotism, injustice, disloyalty, control, and many others. I despise these things, so I do not act that way myself. My mum only said to me yesterday, when I paid back some money I borrowed, that she never worries about when I borrow money, because I always pay back every last cent, when I say I will, and if something happens and I can't, that I'll let them know and work out a new date to repay.

 

I have found, too, that it works in my favour to always be honest. People take you seriously then, and will always be willing to help you out or cut you some slack when you need it.

[Deva]

I like the Buddhist emphasis on compassion. Works for me.

[Overcame Faith]

I look at the issue of morality by first looking at what kind of beings we are. I think we would all agree that we are social beings. But not only are we social, we are tribal. This being the case, then each person must deal with other individuals. And groups of individuals (the tribes) must interact with other groups. We had to learn how to do this so our species would be successful and thrive. In our efforts to survive and thrive, we learned (though far from perfectly) the things we needed to do. Among those were to be honest in our dealings (I know we fail in this all the time). For example, if we are to have successful business relationships, then our agreements (contracts) must be honest and the parties to the agreements must endeavor to do as they promised. We also must not indiscriminately kill, engage in acts of violence, and do other harm to other members of our tribes.

 

The whole thing is most problematic in the inter-tribal relationships. Since our first loyalty is to our tribe (country, state, etc.), we are less prone to have the same high standards when dealing with other tribes. Thus, we have war, trade problems, spying, etc. But even among the tribes, there are rules we have adopted for our tribe's survival. Thus, one tribe may enter into agreements with other tribes (treaties) and, for these inter-tribal agreements, the same rules apply as they do with regard to the inter-personal agreements.

 

So, no, if we as a group of human beings are to survive, we may not cheat and steal indiscriminately, though we do not hold this so high with other tribes that we see as our enemies. Not that I'm endorsing such activities between tribes because I look forward to the day when war is a thing of the past.

[midniterider]

I'm having a hard time with morality issues. Who or what is our source of morality now? It used to be so simple when I was a christian. No lying and no cheating EVER. Jesus was the role model.

 

Who is our role model now? Seems like I have to make up my own moral rules as I go along, and with children to raise, I often wonder what I should teach them?

 

What is the rule concerning lying and cheating? "As long as you don't get caught and don't hurt anyone, it's ok to lie and cheat." Is that it?

 

Be your own role model. Use the golden rule.

 

You never lied to anyone and said, "You look great!" when they looked like hell? Your kid draws a horrible looking stick figure picture on paper and you say, "Oh, what a nice picture!" Liar. lol.

[blackpudd1n]

You never lied to anyone and said, "You look great!" when they looked like hell?

 

Erm... In high school I got in trouble off my friends all the time. We'd go shopping, and they'd ask me if their arse looked big in something. I'd tell them if it did, and then they'd get up me. Why ask if you don't want to know the answer???

[Deva]

There are different types of lies. Some are certainly permissible. Would you tell Nazis at the door you were indeed hiding Jews in the basement? Morality isn't so cut and dried. Yes, under some circumstances when a greater good would result, I can see lying and cheating.

[Denyoz]

Ok, so how we should deal with each other is obviously a no-brainer. We should respect others in order to be respected, therefore lie and cheat as little as possible, if we want to be successful as a group.

 

But my concern was more directed towards institutions, not individuals, I forgot to specify. So I started a new thread, basically asking the same question, but as it pertains to social institutions rather than individuals.

 

Here is the link: Dealing With Immoral Institutions

[Kurari]

What is the rule concerning lying and cheating? "As long as you don't get caught and don't hurt anyone, it's ok to lie and cheat." Is that it?

 

Morality (our sense of right and wrong) is part of who we are as self-aware, thinking beings. Use your head and think about WHY you hold these values. Why IS lying and cheating generally considered wrong? If you look at it from all angles, research from sages and scientific studies, gather information, and really think hard about it with full honesty...then your morality solidifies and becomes strong.

 

If you don't like the idea of hurting others, that's a very good core moral guide. It's my base for judging right from wrong. Asking myself "Is this action going to potentially cause harm to me or other people?" is what I start with before I explore further if necessary. You need to include yourself in that as well because lying and cheating, even if you are guaranteed not to caught by other people or hurting other people, will still affect YOU. Living with a lie is harmful to ourselves, and we are worthy of our OWN love and care too.

 

Plus if you feel and practice compassion, love, empathy, kindness and value the good in life...then lying and cheating really aren't things you consider. This is an area that Christianity has worked very hard to destroy by branding us all flawed, sinners, stupid, broken creations who are incapable of using our own wisdom. It snatches away our power and keeps us subservient and tithing.

 

Of course, as has already been pointed out, life is magnificent and challenging that and throwing you situations where it will call your morals into question and possibly make you do the exact opposite of what you value in order for it to be the right thing. I've had that happen to me quite a few times, and those situations did NOT diminish me being a moral person with solid personal values. It simply meant I had to be flexible and intelligent about it.

 

Richard Dawkins said it best when he said, "I don't think I want an absolute morality. I think I want a morality that is thought out, reasoned, argued, discussed, and based upon -- you could almost say intelligent design."

 

Here is the video about that, if you are interested. It's fairly short.

 

http://youtu.be/wSw6wPEKjmo

[hereticzero]

Why should anyone have to tell you how to live your life? Why aren't you your own role model? We are our own moral compass. When we do bad, we know it and when we do good, we know it. Breaking free of religion is how we free ourselves to live our own lives.

[Voice]

You never lied to anyone and said, "You look great!" when they looked like hell? Your kid draws a horrible looking stick figure picture on paper and you say, "Oh, what a nice picture!" Liar. lol.

 

Have you ever just said, "geez, you look like hell." It's not so bad as it sounds. Can't say it all the time though, just when they look like hell.

You could say to your kid, "Keep at it, you could get really good!"

 

We're each hard wired for some kind of morality. Always good to ask, "where did I get this morality?" Start with parents.

[owen652]

No worries about pleasing sky-daddy.

One aspect that I adopted years ago is the view that I do have a "higher being" to be accountable to. Not God. Not an external power or being. But myself in the future. The person I will be in 10 years from now will look back (if I'm still alive) and wonder "what the Hell did I do that for?" So what I do today will be judged by a future-me. And the future-me will pay the price or get the rewards for what I do now.

 

that's gold.