"God" IS the author of confusion!

[MQTA]

Hi Cerise... it's just my opinion mostly due to these people are wanting their tower to reach into the heavens, to be like God and above all others, to make a name for themselves. I suppose it's up to anyone's own interpretation, and if yours sounds more likely to you or anyone else... what can I say? I find it just as hard to see your perspective as you do mine... not that either of us are right or wrong, just different, IMHO, FWIW. 

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I think it tips the hand that the authors were mere mortals and surely not insired or guided by any creator of the universe or solor system or planet. I'm sure the World Trade Towers and Empire State Building are higher than the Tower of Babel, why were we allowed to build it? Why'd we even DARE? Maybe because we now know about the planet and it's atmosphere? But the Bible clearly shows that God, Back then, THOUGHT we could reach HIM with a Tower?

 

That shows that MEN thought that, it's Obvious that God, the Creator of the Universe, would never think that. He'd KNOW better. And if he's ALL OVER the place, then he and whomever else was with him wouldn't have to Come Down to See what was going on.

[Amethyst]

what he said!!

 

Er...I'm not a he, last time I checked.

 

Hello Amethyst! Biblical archeology is rather new. I think they have determined that the Tower of Babel was a ziggurat, and it seems it can be located in Babylon.

 

That's not proof that the event happened, though. And I'd say that "evidence" has probably been debunked someplace.

 

In Spider-Man comic books, you can see Peter swinging through New York. New York exists, obviously, but does that mean Spider-Man does? Unfortunately not.

[Mythra]

I think it tips the hand that the authors were mere mortals  and surely not insired or guided by any creator of the universe or solor system or planet.  I'm sure the World Trade Towers and Empire State Building are higher than the Tower of Babel, why were we allowed to build it?  Why'd we even DARE?  Maybe because we now know about the planet and it's atmosphere?  But the Bible clearly shows that God, Back then, THOUGHT we could reach HIM with a Tower?

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Hell, take a look at the Stratosphere in Las Vegas. That thing is up there. Plus, they stuck a roller coaster on top of it. Talk about flaunting it right in God's face. They planted an amusement park right on his front porch.

[Amethyst]

Hmm...

 

The Marduk ziggurat was set within the vast sacred precinct on the southern end of the town of Babylon, surrounded by the river, a canal, a doubl e wall and a proessional way.Its Sumerian name was Etemenanki "The Foundation of Heaven and Earth." It was probably built by Hammurabi. Archaeologists discovered a core consisting of the ruins of previous ziggurats which had been levelled and enlarged serval times, before Nebuchadnezzar added a casing of burnt brick 15 m thick. Of this structure only the ground plan and traces of the three stairs leading up to it have been preserved. A tablet giving measurements and the eye-witness accont of the Greek historian Herodotos describe it as having had seven stages of different colors with a temple at its top. However, these sources do not solve the msny ambiguities of its shape and size.

 

Okay, so they found a ziggurat given a religious name in Babylon that might have been built by Hammurabi. That doesn't prove it was THE tower of Babel, nor does it prove that the Biblical event happened, nor does it prove that Biblegod exists. All it proves was that they found an ancient monument.

 

Do you see what I mean? Apologetics does not equal proof. It is not the same as scientific evidence, and that is what I need before I believe in something. Verifiable evidence. This is not that.

[Checkmate]

Hi Cerise... it's just my opinion mostly due to these people are wanting their tower to reach into the heavens, to be like God and above all others, to make a name for themselves. I suppose it's up to anyone's own interpretation, and if yours sounds more likely to you or anyone else... what can I say? I find it just as hard to see your perspective as you do mine... not that either of us are right or wrong, just different, IMHO, FWIW. 

WTF?

 

"Reaching into the heavens", is "wrong"? Says who? And if so, then why hasn't god "confused our language" even further to prevent our making skyscrapers and space ships that have reached beyond our "heavens"?

 

Stop being silly and offering silly responses. The Tower of Babel story is just that...a STORY. A tall tale told to children to explain why people speak differently. It suffices for THEIR tiny little minds, but should NOT be sufficient for intelligent, THINKING adults.

 

Grow up.

[blueheron]

Seem like the god(s) were threatened about people attaining knowledge. Just like in the garden of eden. Hi, I'm new by the way.

[Vigile]

Seem like the god(s) were threatened about people attaining knowledge.  Just like in the garden of eden.  Hi, I'm new by the way.

 

Welcome BH!

 

We can always use another clear thinker here.

[SkepticOfBible]

Seem like the god(s) were threatened about people attaining knowledge.  Just like in the garden of eden.  Hi, I'm new by the way.

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Welcome to the forum. Please do stick around

[Amanda]

Seem like the god(s) were threatened about people attaining knowledge.  Just like in the garden of eden.  Hi, I'm new by the way.

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Hello Blue Heron! Good to see you!

 

I'm from Florida, and I can truly appreciate your avatar! Blue Herons are a spectacular bird that linger around our waterways.

 

I look forward to seeing you around.

[Vixentrox]

Seem like the god(s) were threatened about people attaining knowledge.  Just like in the garden of eden.  Hi, I'm new by the way.

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Welcome to the forums. Yeah pretty damn funny that we have reached all the way into space and god has never decided to punish his people again for "reaching the heavens".

[blueheron]

Thanks for the welcome. There are so many interesting posts, I had to jump in somewhere! My "xtimony" should be up on the testimonial page soon. I just put by "Anonymous" though.

 

Amanda, we have herons in Ohio too. DH and I love birds (and other animals and the beauty of nature)

[Asuryan]

Yeah pretty damn funny that we have reached all the way into space and god has never decided to punish his people again for "reaching the heavens".

98164[/snapback]

 

Not only that, he never decided to punish people again for "reaching the heavens", even when they do that just to claim some sort of space weapon superiority... btw, what the heck is bush doing with his star wars program or whatsitcalled? I thought that taxpayers' money should be spent in something *useful*? Oh wait, after all he's a born-again christian, so maybe he wants to get to heaven and send god a gift of missiles and bombs...

*Dear god,

A present.

Love, xxx

Your favourite son G.W.Bush.*

[Vixentrox]

The missile defence thing is mostly ground, not spaced based.

[All Gods Fail]

Hi Cerise... it's just my opinion mostly due to these people are wanting their tower to reach into the heavens, to be like God and above all others, to make a name for themselves. I suppose it's up to anyone's own interpretation, and if yours sounds more likely to you or anyone else... what can I say? I find it just as hard to see your perspective as you do mine... not that either of us are right or wrong, just different, IMHO, FWIW. 

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The problem is, there isn't enough details in the bible to really determine the whole story of the tower - who built it, why, what they were trying to accomplish, etc. As has been mentioned earlier, the builders were not accused of terrible sins like idolatry, human sacrifice, etc. As far as the story goes, they were just trying to build a tower.

 

This tale is obviously an attempt to explain why there are different languages. It's just like folk tales in other cultures explaining 'how the camel got his hump' or 'how man discovered fire'. To take it as anything more than that is preposterous. The only theological lesson taught here is, 'being unified with others angers god'.

[Amanda]

The problem is, there isn't enough details in the bible to really determine the whole story of the tower - who built it, why, what they were trying to accomplish, etc. As has been mentioned earlier, the builders were not accused of terrible sins like idolatry, human sacrifice, etc. As far as the story goes, they were just trying to build a tower.

99344[/snapback]

Hello All Gods Fail! It says they were trying to build a tower to make a NAME for themselves.

 

"Genesis 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."

 

definition of 'name' found here:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew...034&version=kjv

This tale is obviously an attempt to explain why there are different languages. It's just like folk tales in other cultures explaining 'how the camel got his hump' or 'how man discovered fire'. To take it as anything more than that is preposterous. The only theological lesson taught here is, 'being unified with others angers god'. 

99344[/snapback]

I know that is popular beliefs, yet I don't think so. I think there is a redeeming moral to the story. Because it says in the preceding chapter that they already had their own native tongue, from their own land, already!

 

Gensis Chapter 10

10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations.

10:31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.

 

I think because of this:

 

Genesis 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

 

That they all argued over whose families were the best! Each wanted their names, their fame, to exceed others. They used brick/asphalt for stone/mortar is a metaphor of using what is selfish man made thinking instead of what is unselfish, solid, and what really bonds. IMHO, FWIW.

[Lizard]

Amanda,

That is so "out there" as to not even be plausible..stretched beyond the breaking point, IMO..

[Checkmate]

Amanda, I am at a TOTAL loss in trying to decipher what you're trying to accomplish with your explanations.

 

What is so WRONG (sinful) about wanting to "make a name" for oneself? We humans do that every day. Why did the Babylonians merit "god's" wrath?

 

These people were CO-OPERATING IN HARMONY with one another. Yet "god" saw fit to confound their language, thus assuring confusion and eons of warfare?

 

Besides which, we have thousands of languages TODAY. And yet we STILL manage to understand each other. Thus we have circumvented "god's" silly restrictions. We build skyscrapers. We dare to venture into space.

 

"God" stopped NOTHING! Your "god" is either a petty lunatic, or "he's" non-existant.

 

Why are you continuing to try to explain the inexplicable? To defend the indefensible? This Tower of Babel story (like the rest of the bible) is absolute drivel. It makes NO sense. And no right thinking person should take it seriously.

 

Why are you?

[Amanda]

Amanda, I am at a TOTAL loss in trying to decipher what you're trying to accomplish with your explanations.

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Hello Mr. Grinch!

 

I look at it metaphorically speaking. It seems it depends on how one deciphers the metaphor/narrative. Just in the verse, Gen 11:4, that says they made bricks and burned them thorughly, for stones. Which shows they were trying to make stones and be like 'God'. They used asphalt/slime for bonding, they used turmoil. The prime root meaning for asphalt/slime here: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew...560&version=kjv

What is so WRONG (sinful) about wanting to "make a name" for oneself?  We humans do that every day.  Why did the Babylonians merit "god's" wrath?

99375[/snapback]

I suppose nothing is wrong with making a name for one's self, sometimes it's just a business... but this is in regards to being specifically better than others. It is like a country or religion saying they are the best. It can not be. Definition of name found here:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew...034&version=kjv

Gen 11:4, it is like they wanted people to consider the way to know and identify them as equal to 'God', to worship them, to see them as gods in the heavens looking down on the rest of the people, IMO, FWIW.

These people were CO-OPERATING IN HARMONY with one another.  Yet "god" saw fit to confound their language, thus assuring confusion and eons of warfare?

99375[/snapback]

Again, see root meaning of asphalt/slime above. IMHO, they were not in harmony. Anytime anyone starts saying they are the best, as in country or religion, 'God' will confuse this thinking upon others. Who here agrees that ANY name of any organization is the best?

Besides which, we have thousands of languages TODAY.  And yet we STILL manage to  understand each other.  Thus we have circumvented "god's" silly restrictions.  We build skyscrapers.  We dare to venture into space.

99375[/snapback]

IMO, the confounded language was NOT Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, or anything like that... as I explained, this native tongue was already established in Gen. 10. It is talking about the same language amongst men, as 'I'm the Best'. What are our intentions in these endeavors? To be known as the best... or to seek more efficient, effective ways of building? Do we go into space to prove we are the best... or to explore and learn about new frontiers? We collectively share in these endeavors with other countries now.

Why are you continuing to try to explain the inexplicable?  To defend the indefensible? This Tower of Babel story (like the rest of the bible) is absolute drivel.  It makes NO sense.  And no right thinking person should take it seriously.

 

Why are you?

99375[/snapback]

Mr. Grinch, I agree with you in the presentation of a God as most fundamentalist wish to progress the idea. It would be to defend the indefensible! The popular interpretations seem like drivel to me too! It makes no sense. There we agree immensely! Respectfully, Mr. Grinch, I do believe there are hidden messages of wisdom for those who seek in reason and unselfish agendas. Actually, these underlying principles may be in agreement with most of the wonderful people on this site.

[Guest Abram]

Why does your "loving god" despise man gaining knowledge and wisdom? What the fuck is "god" afraid of? Afraid we aren't going to be dependent on "him" any longer?

 

Have you ever considered that since there were multiple authors of our Pentateuch, perhaps not all of them were working for the Lord when they wrote? A lot of the evil allegedly wrought by God in the Torah is a product of the J-source. Don't you suppose it's possible that Satan was using that person to inject evil into the text, so that people would one day question the morality and the goodness of Yahweh because of the things that were written about him? And who knows what was added when the text was redacted and compiled in the 7th – 6th centuries B.C. I can't think of a better way for Satan to lead people astray than to get his fingers into the text. And there have been enough evil men involved with the transcription and editing over the years that Satan has had more than enough opportunities to tamper with the Word.

[Checkmate]

Have you ever considered that since there were multiple authors of our Pentateuch, perhaps not all of them were working for the Lord when they wrote?  A lot of the evil allegedly wrought by God in the Torah is a product of the J-source.  Don't you suppose it's possible that Satan was using that person to inject evil into the text, so that people would one day question the morality and the goodness of Yahweh because of the things that were written about him?  And who knows what was added when the text was redacted and compiled in the 7th – 6th centuries B.C.  I can't think of a better way for Satan to lead people astray than to get his fingers into the text.  And there have been enough evil men involved with the transcription and editing over the years that Satan has had more than enough opportunities to tamper with the Word.

99392[/snapback]

Not only have I "considered" there were multiple authors, I'm firmly convinced of it. So what's your point? Oh I see, everything AWFUL attributed to your "god" is now to be considered an editor's gaff? (Talk about special pleading!) You won't have much of a bible left once you cull all THAT garbage out of its pages.

 

As to "Satan"-- satan is the Hebrew word meaning "adversary". It is NOT a formal title or name of any person or spirit being. "Satan" is as much of a fairy tale creation as is your "Jehovah", "Elohim" and "Jesus".

 

Read this link on Satan.

 

Don't waste my time. I refuse to argue with people who believe in Santa Claus, Martians, Dracula and "God", et al. You're all a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

 

Go back to your insane asylum. Your rubber room is waiting.

 

Sheesh. Where do we get these people?

[Vixentrox]

Have you ever considered that since there were multiple authors of our New testament, perhaps not all of them were working for the Lord when they wrote? 

[Guest Abram]

Not only have I "considered" there were multiple authors, I'm firmly convinced of it. So what's your point? Oh I see, everything AWFUL attributed to your "god" is now to be considered an editor's gaff? (Talk about special pleading!) You won't have much of a bible left once you cull all THAT garbage out of its pages.

 

You'd be surprised, the book is actually quite a bit more enlightening when you throw away the wars, the rape, and the killing. Like I said, I believe that in various parts of the Old Testament, Satan is inspiring the writer. Particularly the Jawhist-author.

 

As to "Satan"-- satan is the Hebrew word meaning "adversary". It is NOT a formal title or name of any person or spirit being. "Satan" is as much of a fairy tale creation as is your "Jehovah", "Elohim" and "Jesus".

 

Yes, thank you but I was aware already.

 

Don't waste my time. I refuse to argue with people who believe in Santa Claus, Martians, Dracula and "God", et al. You're all a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

 

Go back to your insane asylum. Your rubber room is waiting.

 

If a master's degree in NT from Harvard is not enough to qualify me for your discussion board, then please let me know and I will leave immediately. My intention was to join in on your discussions, and see if we might learn from one another. For some reason, I feel as though I have been met with hostility from all quarters. If my statements have offended anyone then I would like to take this opportunity to apologize.

[Guest Abram]

Have you ever considered that since there were multiple authors of our New testament, perhaps not all of them were working for the Lord when they wrote? 

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Yes, and that's a very good point. It is my belief that the gospel of John is essentially 100% fiction.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

You'd be surprised, the book is actually quite a bit more enlightening when you throw away the wars, the rape, and the killing.  Like I said, I believe that in various parts of the Old Testament, Satan is inspiring the writer.  Particularly the Jawhist-author.

Yes, thank you but I was aware already.

If a master's degree in NT from Harvard is not enough to qualify me for your discussion board, then please let me know and I will leave immediately.  My intention was to join in on your discussions, and see if we might learn from one another.  For some reason, I feel as though I have been met with hostility from all quarters.  If my statements have offended anyone then I would like to take this opportunity to apologize.

99435[/snapback]

 

A Master's Degree? Good grief.

 

But the surprising part isn't that the Bible can be enlightening if you throw out all the nasty bits like the general murder and mayhem, it's that the tidbits you're left with aren't any more or less enlightening than the "Good Parts" version of Hindu, or the Celtic mythology, or the Roman mythology, or the Aztecs or Mayans or Native American legends. How does a "Good Parts" version make the Bible stand out anymore than any of the rest of the world's various beliefs?

[Guest Abram]

But the surprising part isn't that the Bible can be enlightening if you throw out all the nasty bits like the general murder and mayhem, it's that the tidbits you're left with aren't any more or less enlightening than the "Good Parts" version of Hindu, or the Celtic mythology, or the Roman mythology, or the Aztecs or Mayans or Native American legends.    How does a "Good Parts" version make the Bible stand out anymore than any of the rest of the world's various beliefs?

 

In some ways I tend to agree with you. As I said in one of the other threads, I don't believe Christianity has the patent on God, on spirituality, or on enlightenment. For me, I find the bible (parts of it) to be nourishing. If someone else finds the Quran nourishing, then I respect that as well. Multiple paths for multiple people I say.