Another Experience With Suffering

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps you're one of them. How would we know you're not just another one with the wrong ideas about God and His Truth? Should we trust you that you're telling the truth™ only because you think and believe that you know the truth? What about all other billions of people who think they know the truth and disagree with you? Are they false because you believe they're false, and only you are true because you believe you're true, even though they believe they are true and you are false? So why are you so much better and higher than all other people to such a degree that only your belief counts as the one and only measurement against truth and falsehood?

 

How can we discern between truths? Oh, I know. Evidence. Bring it. If you're here to convert us, then you're the one who should bring the cake.

Perhaps you have wrong ideas. One cannot prove God does not exist.

 

You should not trust me or what anyone says - you should logically, fairly, and objectively weigh the matter yourself. And, no one should trust you.

 

As I’ve said before, I’m not here to convert. I can’t do that. Only God can speak to someone’s heart.

 

It seems to me to be a no-brainer that if some literal Bible-believers teach that all God’s children should expect to live rich and pain-free now on earth - that this doesn’t line up with Jesus’ teachings. Shouldn’t the teachings of literal Bible-believers make sense with all passages of the Bible? Whether you believe or not, can their teaching be logically supported by the Bible?

Or you arena false teacher, here to deceive us and take us away from the true gospel.

 

Begonne Satan!

[Franciscan Monkey]

P.S...I am not mad at you, walker.

I am disgusted with the Bible.

Thanks, foolish girl. The Bible can be really hard to understand. The ancient world is so foreign to us.

 

Ok, but I understand it just fine.

Front to back.

I understand it through Christian goggles, through a historical lens , and as a newly objective viewer.

 

I knew all of the answers when I walked away- including what to say when things were too mysterious, or didn't make sense.

 

The Bible is boring, ridiculous and disgusting to me simply because It is not hard to understand.

 

It only becomes difficult when you try to make it line up with our modern sociological concepts regarding freedom, decency, and equality.

 

Once I deconverted, the Bible and Christianity suddenly made so much more sense.

 

Why are there so many contradictions in the Bible? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

Why are there so many illogical and absurd stories in the Bible? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

Why are there so many historical inaccuracies in the Bible? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

Why are there so many scientific mistakes in the Bible? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

Why is there a lack of astounding scientific knowledge in the Bible? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

Why does the Bible contain immoral teachings? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

Why are so many of the teachings in the Bible ambiguous, leading to many rival Christian sects? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

Why did God decide to use men to actually pen his words instead of using some other irrefutable method? Because it was written by men, and not God.

 

From the outside looking in, it's obvious that the Bible cannot be the product of some deity due to the very poor quality of the finished work.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[walker]

I don’t know any human “houses” that aren’t at least somewhat divided, except houses where there is no freedom of thought permitted. End-time thought isn’t a crucial belief anyway. You’re right though - the fact that Christianity is around today is miraculous.

I will give you the "house divided" point, but I never said that the fact that Christianity is around today was "miraculous." I said it was on the way out. YOU are the only one that thinks it is miraculous.

Sorry - I didn’t mean to suggest that you thought Christianity being around today was miraculous. I didn’t think you thought that. I wasn't quoting you but continuing the line of thought.

 

You had written: “This infighting among Christians is one reason why it is on the way out. A house divided against itself cannot stand and its been happening in Christianity for a thousand years. I say in another thousand it will be something like the Greek religion- most people know about it historically only.”

 

I was only saying that with all the infighting and divisions it’s surprising Christianity is around today at all.

[walker]

You have been able to move from your Christian past - I can move from my past of broken relationship with God. I’m not sinless but my sin no longer stops me from walking with God. That’s positive.

I don't believe in the whole "relationship with God" thing. I don't believe in the kind of God that breaks a relationship off like a pissed off human being.

 

Where did sin come from?

I don’t believe God breaks relationship off “like a pissed human being”. But, just like with human beings, there are times when people make relationship impossible. What type of relationship can we have with someone who constantly kicks us out of the place where they are? Or someone who constantly tells us what to do when?

 

Sin is our choice to follow our way instead of God’s. It comes from us.

[walker]

The women who worked at the orphanage my daughter helped at weren’t struggling to survive. They were trained, educated, and paid even if they didn’t show for work. This method of paying workers resulted in a problem right before my daughter came - the special needs area of the orphanage had to be closed because workers didn’t come to work and the children, who couldn‘t feed themselves, were starving to death. The other orphanage workers made a decision to save donated money for an air conditioner - they did this by buying only rice and tomatoes for the children to eat. Yes - Africa is hot, but Africans are used to their climate and used to having no AC. 70 degrees feels cold to them. AC is nice to have, but before food? The children didn’t mind the heat.

Africa is a big place. Where about's did this happen?

 

mwc

I’m sorry, mwc, but my daughter was asked by her school to not disclose the exact location in Africa. They don’t want “negative media attention” so they request that their students “protect those involved” to not “hurt them further“. My daughter can only say it was Sub-Sarahan West Africa.

[mwc]

The women who worked at the orphanage my daughter helped at weren’t struggling to survive. They were trained, educated, and paid even if they didn’t show for work. This method of paying workers resulted in a problem right before my daughter came - the special needs area of the orphanage had to be closed because workers didn’t come to work and the children, who couldn‘t feed themselves, were starving to death. The other orphanage workers made a decision to save donated money for an air conditioner - they did this by buying only rice and tomatoes for the children to eat. Yes - Africa is hot, but Africans are used to their climate and used to having no AC. 70 degrees feels cold to them. AC is nice to have, but before food? The children didn’t mind the heat.

Africa is a big place. Where about's did this happen?

 

mwc

I’m sorry, mwc, but my daughter was asked by her school to not disclose the exact location in Africa. They don’t want “negative media attention” so they request that their students “protect those involved” to not “hurt them further“. My daughter can only say it was Sub-Sarahan West Africa.

I see. I'm sure this attitude will help make things better.

 

It's "in some sort of gods hands" now.

 

mwc

[Galien]

You have been able to move from your Christian past - I can move from my past of broken relationship with God. I’m not sinless but my sin no longer stops me from walking with God. That’s positive.

I don't believe in the whole "relationship with God" thing. I don't believe in the kind of God that breaks a relationship off like a pissed off human being.

 

Where did sin come from?

I don’t believe God breaks relationship off “like a pissed human being”. But, just like with human beings, there are times when people make relationship impossible. What type of relationship can we have with someone who constantly kicks us out of the place where they are? Or someone who constantly tells us what to do when?

 

Sin is our choice to follow our way instead of God’s. It comes from us.

 

Yes, I have watched with interest god's so called way. Pray for things that don't happen, pretend it doesn't hurt, or it doesn't matter how unfair it is. Do nothing and wait on god. Seen people take their own lives because the pain got so bad, even though they begged god for relief. Watched lovely women sit around clutching their virginity like a prize as they aged, waiting for god to send them a godly husband who never came. Watched pastors rip people off emotionally, spiritually and finacially. Watched all this go on, and so much more, and always the blanket justification "god is in control" "god can see the big picture" and all the rest of it blah blah blah.

 

I didn't do anything to god to deserve this shit walker and neither did you. If the relationship is broken it is because god caused it to be broken by his own plan and his own machinations. I just got tired of feeling constantly sorry for something I didnt do.

[walker]

'A lack of physical manifestation' - there is NO physical eviidence that any gods exist.

I have to laugh at your statement 'God doesn’t insist on His way because of some self-centered need - it’s just that other ways don’t work.

 

because it is blindly obvious that gods way does not work eaither - but then god doesn't exist so thats not a surprize.

 

Yes man is often a nasty little animal - whether or not he beleives in some god, do some reading and discover for yourself the many nasty ways man has acted because of his belief in some god,

history is full of it

the bible is full of it

what shouldn't be surprizing is that man can also do wonderful things for his fellow man, without any mindnumbing belief in some cruel god. Read the bible walker.

I would say God’s Way works - we don’t. There’s only one perfect person in the Bible - true. History is filled with imperfect people too - agreed.

 

You had written that man is “a nasty little animal who has little regard to his fellow man (man as in human kind.)”. You then said man is often a nasty little animal. I asked how you explain the good man does. ?

Walker you keep making statements that are NOT correct - and have NO proof. - 'there is only one perfect person in the bible - who says so - you? the bible is NOT based on fact - if you think differently prove it - and don't quote scripture to do so, that just doesn't not prove anything.

 

Man does 'good' because we live in society and thats the way it works. You need to do some reading on the evolution of society and how relationships work - man does NOT do good, because of some belief in some god - there are just as many 'xtians' that do evil as non xtians - plenty of proof for that walker -

Being a so called 'xtian' does not change human nature - thats is just laughable - many many xtains are completely evil

I was commenting on your phrase “the bible is full of it” (“the many nasty ways man has acted because of his belief in some god”). If the Bible is not based on fact, then we can’t know “the bible is full of it” - correct?

 

However, if you’re discussing what the Bible says even though it’s “fiction”, then we can also say the Bible claims there is only one perfect person.

 

It would be kind of ridiculous to use scripture to prove the Bible is based on fact to someone who doesn’t believe the Bible is credible. We agree here. As far as support for the Bible, that is a huge topic and it doesn’t really belong in a thread on another issue.

 

I would say man usually does “good” because he expects to receive benefit from doing so. I agree that many who claim to be “Christian” do a lot of evil. But - claiming to be a “Christian” doesn’t necessarily mean you are, right? We can claim just about anything - that doesn’t make it true.

[walker]

False christianity walker?

 

what makes YOU think yours is right. out of all the thousands of various sects that claim they are the only 'right'church.

I agree with Luna 100%, you are so full of self righteousness and blinded by thinking that YOU are right and everyone else is reaping the rewards of their UNBELIEF in YOUR god!!!!!!

 

People like you are the cause of unhappiness in the world, the "I'm right and your are wrong' shit.

Wouldn’t you say you’re right and I’m wrong? What makes you think you are right? How do you know? How do you determine this?

I not the one coming to an ex xtian site trying to PROVE that my specific brand of xtanity is RIGHT - thats you -

You are the one coming here stating untruths as though they are true

You are the one whos coming here and preaching as though what you have to say is worthy of attention

its no different to any of the other trolls that come and go thinking they have the answers, the "right" brand of xanity that we are just waiting to hear ....

If you want to come and learn - fine,

I don't know i am right, but i know that there is NO proof that there is any truth in the claims of xtanity and that it is NOT true

I can’t “prove” anything to anyone. I’m not here to do that. I’m sharing what I know. I think it’s really important for people to be informed. I want to know what others think and I really value meeting people like you in discussion.

 

O-K - you said you don’t know if you’re right. You don’t believe any gods exist, but you don’t know you’re right. However, you don’t believe Christianity is true because there is no proof for its claims. Did I understand you correctly? (I’m honestly asking.)

 

If I’m understanding you correctly, would it be accurate to say that you believe there could be a god, a supreme being - but that god wouldn’t be the God revealed by the Bible?

[Deva]

I don’t believe God breaks relationship off “like a pissed human being”. But, just like with human beings, there are times when people make relationship impossible. What type of relationship can we have with someone who constantly kicks us out of the place where they are? Or someone who constantly tells us what to do when?

 

Sin is our choice to follow our way instead of God’s. It comes from us.

 

So nothing's impossible with God except having a relationship with an unwilling human. One exception disproves the rule. There are obviously things God cannot do. Therefore,he cannot be called all-powerful or sovereign.

 

I don't believe in an anthropomorphic God. Too many contradictions. Too much that simply doesn't make sense if you think about it for five minutes.

 

Was the devil a human being? It manifestly does not come from us, or the Bible is wrong. In one verse God states outright "I create evil" So-called "sin" is a creation of human beings - I will grant you that.

[Darklady]

 

I can’t “prove” anything to anyone. I’m not here to do that. I’m sharing what I know. I think it’s really important for people to be informed. I want to know what others think and I really value meeting people like you in discussion.

 

O-K - you said you don’t know if you’re right. You don’t believe any gods exist, but you don’t know you’re right. However, you don’t believe Christianity is true because there is no proof for its claims. Did I understand you correctly? (I’m honestly asking.)

 

If I’m understanding you correctly, would it be accurate to say that you believe there could be a god, a supreme being - but that god wouldn’t be the God revealed by the Bible?

 

Walker - quite frankly I just don't care anymore - The scale of suffering in the world is and always has been horrendous, life is suffering, and it makes NO difference what you believe, the xtian god,the jewish god the hindu gods, or any other brand of worshipping some unseen deity in the VAIN hope that somehow you can make sense of suffering.

I totally disagree with your statement you are not here to prove anything, as a xtian you believe you are right and we are wrong and on the way to hell, you have to, according to your bible, prove that you are right,

You say its really important for people to be informed - for fucks sake Walker, how can you honestly say we are NOT informed - I have studied the bible, been to bible collage, have two degrees, including a Masters, and have studied religion from inside and out, I am very well informed, some people here have been pastors for many years - this is the kind of arrogance that all the trolls come here and sprout = we are uninformed because we DO NOT agree with you!!!

 

There are NO gods, in any form what so ever.

[foolish girl]

I can’t “prove” anything to anyone. I’m not here to do that. I’m sharing what I know. I think it’s really important for people to be informed. I want to know what others think and I really value meeting people like you in discussion.

 

O-K - you said you don’t know if you’re right. You don’t believe any gods exist, but you don’t know you’re right. However, you don’t believe Christianity is true because there is no proof for its claims. Did I understand you correctly? (I’m honestly asking.)

 

If I’m understanding you correctly, would it be accurate to say that you believe there could be a god, a supreme being - but that god wouldn’t be the God revealed by the Bible?

 

Walker - quite frankly I just don't care anymore - The scale of suffering in the world is and always has been horrendous, life is suffering, and it makes NO difference what you believe, the xtian god,the jewish god the hindu gods, or any other brand of worshipping some unseen deity in the VAIN hope that somehow you can make sense of suffering.

I totally disagree with your statement you are not here to prove anything, as a xtian you believe you are right and we are wrong and on the way to hell, you have to, according to your bible, prove that you are right,

You say its really important for people to be informed - for fucks sake Walker, how can you honestly say we are NOT informed - I have studied the bible, been to bible collage, have two degrees, including a Masters, and have studied religion from inside and out, I am very well informed, some people here have been pastors for many years - this is the kind of arrogance that all the trolls come here and sprout = we are uninformed because we DO NOT agree with you!!!

 

There are NO gods, in any form what so ever.

Preach it SISTA!

[TMJ]

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

 

That is so blatantly racist I'm coming unglued just reading it. Children are starving to death and genocide carried out because they're not christian? You have a superior god?

 

I am truly thankful I am no longer one of you.

 

 

This quote of hers had me scratching my head. I don't get it. Does she think that nonChristians believe that the reason people starve to death is because of race? The problems in the continent of Africa have many causes, it would be difficult to pick just one reason.

 

Anyone who reads history knows that there have been many time periods during Europe and America's history when suffering caused by poverty was not unusual. Was the suffering of Europeans and America caused by a lack of proper religious beliefs? Most people were Christians.

 

 

 

Also, I have not intentions of emailing your daughter but I will engage her on this site.

[TMJ]

“I'm not a racist, so I can't believe that my race is more highly evolved or in some other way superior to the African culture. So there's only one way to account for the difference between my culture and theirs - the influence of a very existent God.”

 

That is so blatantly racist I'm coming unglued just reading it. Children are starving to death and genocide carried out because they're not christian? You have a superior god?

 

I am truly thankful I am no longer one of you.

 

 

This quote of hers had me scratching my head. I don't get it. Does she think that nonChristians believe that the reason people starve to death is because of race? The problems in the continent of Africa have many causes, it would be difficult to pick just one reason. Race has nothing to do with their suffering.

 

Anyone who reads history knows that there have been many time periods during Europe and America's history when suffering caused by poverty was not unusual. Was the suffering of Europeans and America caused by a lack of proper religious beliefs? Most people were Christians.

 

 

 

Also, I have not intentions of emailing your daughter but I will engage her on this site.

[walker]

And when I calmed down god wasn't there.

 

God lets us all down because he either isn't there or doesn't care. You have a deep relationship with the pure heart of yourself. What I believed to be god let me down in more ways that I could ever describe, and the pain is soul destroying. That isn't love. I don't know if you are a parent or not walker's daughter but good parents do no stand by and watch their children suffer if they love them. Ever.

God “let’s me down” when I want my way and it’s not His Way. But I do thank Him that He didn’t get behind some of my “Please make so-and-so fall in love with me” prayers! Many of my young ideas were scary.

 

I think good parents sometimes allow their children to suffer. If we always hold their hands through a math problem (or do it for them) they don’t learn to do it themselves. If we don’t allow them to suffer through medical surgeries they don’t get well. If we stop them from going through rigorous, disciplined training they don’t get stronger.

Geez walker I bet you think I have never heard this before after 36 years as a christian. Kudos to me though that I was never actually arrogant enough to say it. This is exactly the kind of crap I am so tired of hearing. Why do christians always spout this rubbish when they have no real answer that makes sense in the real world. It is wanting your own way wanting to be cured of a life threatening illness? Begging to have your mental illness taken away? If god didnt want us to suffer, we wouldn't. I am not talking about the kind of suffering that makes a person grow. I am talking about the type that tortures you to suicide or makes you die from pneumonia.

 

Sorry mate but i cannot see how a 5 year old shitting out his insides from gasteroenteritis in a desert is to anyone's advantage, or teaches anyong anything good. Personally I am sick and tiref of this rote rubbish that christians crap on with. Tell me walker, what good does it do for children to starve to death?

Galien, I don’t think I ever said illness or starvation were good things. I did say good can come from not-good things. But that doesn’t ever make the not-good thing a good thing.

 

Suffering is a part of this world. That’s reality. Everyone is going to die of something … another reality. There it is - we all know it. So the question becomes - what are we going to do with suffering and pain? Will we overcome and be victors? Or will we lay down and be victims? Will we help others? Or will we turn away because it’s not our problem, or because we think it‘s hopeless?

 

God didn’t put suffering and death in this world - people did. He, in a sense, put two paths before humankind and gave us the freedom to choose. His Way involved no suffering and death - it was a smooth and level path. Our way was not so good - it would come with rocks, cliffs, etc. It wasn’t the best way. But though we chose our way, God didn’t abandon us. He made a bridge from our path back to His. And He gives us the power to overcome.

 

Our freedom is crucial to our humanity. God doesn’t and won’t remove our freedom to choose even though it comes with the possibility of suffering. He can redeem our choices though. He can bring good out of bad.

 

I sense, Galien, that you have known much suffering. I’m really sorry. I hope you’ve had people who’ve helped and supported you.

[walker]

galien,

 

do you expect walker to tell you the kid died for no reason at all? you expect him to tell you that god created the kid so the kid can die a horrible death because god has willed it and because he can?

 

he will give you the standard dance routine on how god uses people to give assistance to the kid and put you on a guilty trip such as what are you going to do about it.

The child died because people choose to define “good” and “evil” for themselves, over and over throughout time. God didn’t create the child so he could die a horrible death - God didn’t will it.

 

I think no one can succeed in making you feel guilty without your consent.

[walker]

This is the point in most xian threads that they start to get a little annoyed that we STILL aren't hearing their version of the "good news" with all the nods and amens that we should and begin ad hominem attacks and warnings that we may be punished for our ignorance.

 

So, Walker, I'm curious too. What good does it do for children to starve to death?

I’m not annoyed, par4dcourse. The Bible says few will hear and see, right? If I were annoyed I’d be expecting otherwise.

 

I think I answered your question in my last post to Galien.

[lunaticheathen]

I’m not annoyed, par4dcourse. The Bible says few will hear and see, right? If I were annoyed I’d be expecting otherwise.

 

Fuck you.

I'm done with this thread. I'm still glad I'm not you, you racist colonialist codpiece.

[Darklady]

Walker, some xtains that come here are willing to engage, listen and learn, others are not. You are proving your self to be in the group of insufferable, pigheaded, self righteous, bastards that are so full of crap you cannot see the truth when it is right in front of your eyes. People like you ruin life for others, you know nothing of truth, only the lies you have been spoon fed. If only you would read the bible with open eyes, but you won't, you are too caught up in your self righteousness, your hated of anyone different to yourself and your fear of living life fully.

I would feel sorry for you if you were a half way decent person.