William Lane Craig Justifies Genocide.

[nightflight]

First, I want to say that in no way am I saying that murdering or genocide are 'okay'. But, I do have a question? What were the Israelite suppose to do? Lets take God out of the equation for a minute, and lets say that Israel just did these things just to do them. So, are they savage people? Are they murderers? I am just wondering on what political level one would view the ancient group of Israel. Also, on the level of that era in time. Were they robust, savage murderers during warfare compared to all the other settlements?

 

Jesus said, "with God all things are possible". Could there not have been another way if that is true? Is God limited in his options?

[Shyone]

 

IMO, I have always viewed the battles of Israel as just that, wars. In war, things happen. Now, like I said earlier, I don't justify genocide, but in a way, I get why God would've wanted the 'surrounding environment' destroyed. Supposedly, they worshiped other Gods, weren't very holy people etc. Now, Israel was God's HOLY people supposedly, and they had a million rules and laws to follow; not to mention that if things went bad, they would worship anything they found.

 

Back to the genocide part. So God had them slayed, killed, murdered ( as some put it). What if God is just extremely Holy, the Bible is right, and His people needed to be Holy, and nothing in the confines of God could be foreign in that sense?

 

Could a God that demanded Holiness to such a degree live among unholy people of this nature? God in a sense then, was living among Israel, unlike now. He was hovering over a cloud, above the Holy of Hollies were the priests worshiped.

 

Just a thought.

Your "thought" is as disgusting as your barbarian god.

 

Do you likewise feel the same way about the people around you today? Would you justify the slaughter of your Hindu and Muslim neighbors?

 

What about the concept of salvation? How about conversion? Why "preach" when slaughter accomplishes what God ordered in the first place?

 

Were the citizens of those cities by definition "incorrigible"? Unsalvageable? Did Jesus say to slaughter the Ssmaritans?

 

Hebrew Apostasy was punishable by death. Why don't you kill apostates (like us)? What is stopping you? Isn't This bible supposed to be your frickin' moral guide?

 

Could a God that demanded Holiness to such a degree live among unholy people of this nature? God in a sense then, was living among Israel, unlike now. He was hovering over a cloud, above the Holy of Hollies were the priests worshiped.

 

I thought God was god to everyone, not just one tribe.

 

Interesting that each city state or tribe had their own god that justified their particular genocidal impulses and acts. Yahweh versus Ba'al Hadad, god of some tribes of Canaanites. Yahweh wins. Yahweh versus Marduk, god of the Babylonians. Marduk wins. Funny how the powerful overcome the weak, just like if there was no god whatsoever.

 

 

Joshua 17:18: “But the mountain country shall be yours. Although it is wooded, you shall cut it down, and its farthest extent shall be yours; for you shall drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots and are strong.”

 

Judges 1:19: “So the Lord was with Judah. And they drove out the mountaineers, but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the lowland, because they had chariots of iron.”

[mwc]

Now, like I said earlier, I don't justify genocide, but

BUT that's what your entire post attempts to do.

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

IMO, I have always viewed the battles of Israel as just that, wars. In war, things happen. Now, like I said earlier, I don't justify genocide, but in a way, I get why God would've wanted the 'surrounding environment' destroyed. Supposedly, they worshiped other Gods, weren't very holy people etc. Now, Israel was God's HOLY people supposedly, and they had a million rules and laws to follow; not to mention that if things went bad, they would worship anything they found.

 

Back to the genocide part. So God had them slayed, killed, murdered ( as some put it). What if God is just extremely Holy, the Bible is right, and His people needed to be Holy, and nothing in the confines of God could be foreign in that sense?

 

Could a God that demanded Holiness to such a degree live among unholy people of this nature? God in a sense then, was living among Israel, unlike now. He was hovering over a cloud, above the Holy of Hollies were the priests worshiped.

 

Just a thought.

I think you need to think about that more. Are you saying it's okay to kill people that worship other Gods? Does being holy only apply to this God? Describe holy and try to separate it from all people regardless of what or who they worship. Was Ghandi holy?

 

I'm sorry, but thinking like this puts one's exclusive and arrogant mindset in the open where all can see. And you know what? It's ugly...

[centauri]

First, I want to say that in no way am I saying that murdering or genocide are 'okay'. But, I do have a question? What were the Israelite suppose to do? Lets take God out of the equation for a minute, and lets say that Israel just did these things just to do them. So, are they savage people? Are they murderers? I am just wondering on what political level one would view the ancient group of Israel. Also, on the level of that era in time. Were they robust, savage murderers during warfare compared to all the other settlements?

Were the Israelites invaders or defenders?

 

Second, the big question. Why did God order ALL of anything in the settlements to be killed or destroyed? I challenge to ask this. If the Bible would've said that an 'angel' came and destroyed all the settlement because of their sin; Would it be different?

Does the order to exterminate all things that breath indicate that this deity is a loving creator?

 

Thirdly, Who is God? What is God in authority? Surely, a God could not be a God if He couldn't have authority. So, did God abuse His authority here? If God abused His authority, and slayed people out of 'just because'; then God is a murderer. Yes, to us, He would be a murderer, but to Him? Would He be a murderer for simply moving one human from physical to spiritual?

If this deity can't be evaluated by human criteria then neither can any other deity.

All deities become equally exempt from scrutiny.

 

Back to the genocide part. So God had them slayed, killed, murdered ( as some put it). What if God is just extremely Holy, the Bible is right, and His people needed to be Holy, and nothing in the confines of God could be foreign in that sense?

But his people weren't holy.

The Bible says they did even more evil than the nations they destroyed.

[RationalOkie]

...

IMO, I have always viewed the battles of Israel as just that, wars. In war, things happen. Now, like I said earlier, I don't justify genocide, but in a way, I get why God would've wanted the 'surrounding environment' destroyed. Supposedly, they worshiped other Gods, weren't very holy people etc. Now, Israel was God's HOLY people supposedly, and they had a million rules and laws to follow; not to mention that if things went bad, they would worship anything they found.

 

Abiyoyo, I am very disappointed in your response. Let me make this clear, genocide is absolutely not o.k. during ANY time period. Not in 2009 or 1400 BC. Killing women and children can NOT...EVER....be justified. There is no defense for this....NONE! Logical people know this and this is why we don't want religious people in charge of our governments and more importantly our militaries.

 

I'm reminded of the great statement by Anne Lamott - "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

[Abiyoyo]

 

Your "thought" is as disgusting as your barbarian god

 

Thank you

 

Do you likewise feel the same way about the people around you today? Would you justify the slaughter of your Hindu and Muslim neighbors?

 

No. Jesus ate with sinners.

 

What about the concept of salvation? How about conversion? Why "preach" when slaughter accomplishes what God ordered in the first place?

 

Because God got out of the slaughtering business millennium's ago.

 

Were the citizens of those cities by definition "incorrigible"? Unsalvageable? Did Jesus say to slaughter the Ssmaritans?

 

Samaritans were just poor people.

 

Hebrew Apostasy was punishable by death. Why don't you kill apostates (like us)? What is stopping you? Isn't This bible supposed to be your frickin' moral guide?

 

Jesus said that 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' isn't what God wants anymore. I am suppose to 'Dust my feet of you', according to Christ, but that's if you haven't accepted the message of Christ when first presented to you. I go by that 'One lost sheep' parable when dealing with "apostates". ...But, who says you are an apostate?

 

 

 

I thought God was god to everyone, not just one tribe.

 

He is now through Christ.

 

Interesting that each city state or tribe had their own god that justified their particular genocidal impulses and acts. Yahweh versus Ba'al Hadad, god of some tribes of Canaanites. Yahweh wins. Yahweh versus Marduk, god of the Babylonians. Marduk wins. Funny how the powerful overcome the weak, just like if there was no god whatsoever.

 

Yeah, weird.

[Ouroboros]

First, I want to say that in no way am I saying that murdering or genocide are 'okay'. But, I do have a question? What were the Israelite suppose to do? Lets take God out of the equation for a minute, and lets say that Israel just did these things just to do them. So, are they savage people? Are they murderers? I am just wondering on what political level one would view the ancient group of Israel. Also, on the level of that era in time. Were they robust, savage murderers during warfare compared to all the other settlements?

Saddam Hussein instigated genocide against the Kurds.

 

Hitler against the Jews.

 

And many other tyrants.

 

If they were wrong to use their ideology to support mass-murder of people who were only guilty of being born in the wrong family, then why would Israel be right when they did it in the name of God?

 

If morality is absolute and objective, then genocide is wrong regardless of who does it.

 

If genocide is morally wrong only when a non-Judeo/Christian does it, but right when a Judeo/Christian does it, then morality is not absolute or objective, but very much subjective.

 

There are no excuses for objective statements. But if excuses are allowed, then it is not objective.

 

It's very simple.

 

Israel invaded a territory because God told them so. If Allah tells Muslim to invade a country, why is that wrong if the deity's command is morally right?

 

Second, the big question. Why did God order ALL of anything in the settlements to be killed or destroyed? I challenge to ask this. If the Bible would've said that an 'angel' came and destroyed all the settlement because of their sin; Would it be different?

What if an angel from Allah came and destroy all Christian settlements in some country? Would it be right?

 

Thirdly, Who is God? What is God in authority? Surely, a God could not be a God if He couldn't have authority. So, did God abuse His authority here? If God abused His authority, and slayed people out of 'just because'; then God is a murderer. Yes, to us, He would be a murderer, but to Him? Would He be a murderer for simply moving one human from physical to spiritual?

If objective morality is in God's nature, then objective morality is objective morality, which is genocide is objectively moral. Genocide is then a good thing to do, regardless of who does it. If it is subjectively decided that it's good when God's people does it, but evil when non-God's people does it, then it is subjective.

 

IMO, I have always viewed the battles of Israel as just that, wars. In war, things happen. Now, like I said earlier, I don't justify genocide, but in a way, I get why God would've wanted the 'surrounding environment' destroyed. Supposedly, they worshiped other Gods, weren't very holy people etc. Now, Israel was God's HOLY people supposedly, and they had a million rules and laws to follow; not to mention that if things went bad, they would worship anything they found.

They're not HOLY if they do UNHOLY things. By the fruit you will know the tree.

 

Back to the genocide part. So God had them slayed, killed, murdered ( as some put it). What if God is just extremely Holy, the Bible is right, and His people needed to be Holy, and nothing in the confines of God could be foreign in that sense?

Then genocide is a holy thing and righteous to do. So lets to it.

 

But why are Christians accusing logical atheists for being genocidal and mass-murderers when obviously Christians are the ones defending these horrific acts?

 

Could a God that demanded Holiness to such a degree live among unholy people of this nature? God in a sense then, was living among Israel, unlike now. He was hovering over a cloud, above the Holy of Hollies were the priests worshiped.

"Acting in God's command" is nothing but an excuse for people to do evil things and feel good about it.

[Abiyoyo]

Now, like I said earlier, I don't justify genocide, but

BUT that's what your entire post attempts to do.

 

mwc

 

[Abiyoyo]

 

I think you need to think about that more. Are you saying it's okay to kill people that worship other Gods? Does being holy only apply to this God? Describe holy and try to separate it from all people regardless of what or who they worship. Was Ghandi holy?

 

I'm sorry, but thinking like this puts one's exclusive and arrogant mindset in the open where all can see. And you know what? It's ugly...

 

So, if you and your brother were in Israel, saw Moses glowing, coming down from a mountain; striking a rock and water coming out; eating manna that fell from the sky; seen Moses raise his staff, and Israel defeated an army; seen someone miraculously die for stealing loot from a tribe they conquered etc.

 

You wouldn't did what supposedly God commanded? I am simply saying that I can see where they would've gotten the notion to obey God, and the God is Holy notion.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Were the Israelites invaders or defenders?

 

Both.

 

 

Does the order to exterminate all things that breathe indicate that this deity is a loving creator?

 

Depends on how you define a 'loving creator'.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Abiyoyo, I am very disappointed in your response. Let me make this clear, genocide is absolutely not o.k. during ANY time period. Not in 2009 or 1400 BC. Killing women and children can NOT...EVER....be justified. There is no defense for this....NONE! Logical people know this and this is why we don't want religious people in charge of our governments and more importantly our militaries.

 

I'm reminded of the great statement by Anne Lamott - "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

 

Not even at Pearl Harbor, when we bombed back? You should protest this country. Would you think of it differently if instead of 'killed' they were only injured and expedited to another land?

[NotBlinded]

 

I think you need to think about that more. Are you saying it's okay to kill people that worship other Gods? Does being holy only apply to this God? Describe holy and try to separate it from all people regardless of what or who they worship. Was Ghandi holy?

 

I'm sorry, but thinking like this puts one's exclusive and arrogant mindset in the open where all can see. And you know what? It's ugly...

 

So, if you and your brother were in Israel, saw Moses glowing, coming down from a mountain; striking a rock and water coming out; eating manna that fell from the sky; seen Moses raise his staff, and Israel defeated an army; seen someone miraculously die for stealing loot from a tribe they conquered etc.

 

You wouldn't did what supposedly God commanded? I am simply saying that I can see where they would've gotten the notion to obey God, and the God is Holy notion.

First I would have ran off screaming that I lost my mind!

 

I don't think anyone, anywhere saw any of these things. They used God as an excuse to slaughter their perceived enemies. The notion came from whoever told them these things. They gave this person or group the authority to speak on behalf of God. Just as anyone with this mindset would do. You have probably heard something like this, "As God as my witness" or "God is with us". It has no power over anyone that doesn't allow these people to claim authority for them. Evangelists do this all the time. They say things like, "I have heard the voice of God", etc. People today believe this regardless if they have or not. I would imagine it was much more so back then.

 

That may be where the difference is in trying to understand. You believe these people saw these things and participated in the supernatural. I don't.

 

Step out of the mindset for a minute and see this as a "God is on our side" kind of deal. You know, like putting "In God we Trust" on currency.

[Abiyoyo]

 

Saddam Hussein instigated genocide against the Kurds.

 

Hitler against the Jews.

 

And many other tyrants.

 

If they were wrong to use their ideology to support mass-murder of people who were only guilty of being born in the wrong family, then why would Israel be right when they did it in the name of God?

 

Who says that God didn't already know that and they are right beside God at this very moment?

If morality is absolute and objective, then genocide is wrong regardless of who does it.

 

If genocide is morally wrong only when a non-Judeo/Christian does it, but right when a Judeo/Christian does it, then morality is not absolute or objective, but very much subjective.

 

There are no excuses for objective statements. But if excuses are allowed, then it is not objective.

 

It's very simple.

 

Israel invaded a territory because God told them so. If Allah tells Muslim to invade a country, why is that wrong if the deity's command is morally right?

 

It is only measurable to those that have measures. I don't judge anyone, and have an understanding that these genocides of Israel took place in ancient times when that is all a people had to conquer another people.....but wait, that is all we still have? We just live in fear of each other now.

 

 

What if an angel from Allah came and destroy all Christian settlements in some country? Would it be right?

 

Right to society? Of course not. Right to God? That goes back to what family your born into. I wouldn't perceive that Jesus would agree? Agree?

 

 

 

 

 

They're not HOLY if they do UNHOLY things. By the fruit you will know the tree.

 

I understand your point Hans. But Holy is defined by God, and their God told them to do these things. They are not Holy to us as society because we understand a certain aspect of ethics.

 

 

Then genocide is a holy thing and righteous to do. So lets to it.

 

But why are Christians accusing logical atheists for being genocidal and mass-murderers when obviously Christians are the ones defending these horrific acts?

 

I dunno.

 

 

"Acting in God's command" is nothing but an excuse for people to do evil things and feel good about it.

 

Sometimes.

[mwc]

First I would have ran off screaming that I lost my mind!

No. You would have died in the fucking desert like every last one of them did INCLUDING MOSES!

 

At least that's what the bible says. First "god" kills off the entire "generation" of his own "chosen" people and then he raises up a new generation of mindless killers that WILL simply do his bidding...or not. They like those heathens and tend to bang them more often than not which means more random genocides.

 

mwc

[mwc]

Samaritans were just poor people.

Wrong. Try again.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

They're not HOLY if they do UNHOLY things. By the fruit you will know the tree.

 

I understand your point Hans. But Holy is defined by God, and their God told them to do these things. They are not Holy to us as society because we understand a certain aspect of ethics.

So Holy is subjective to us, while it is objective to God? Then where do we get our objective morality from, if it's subjective? Why even argue God's objective morality, if it is in the end subjective? Why is genocide an objectively moral act, but only if you're an ancient Jew?

 

Then genocide is a holy thing and righteous to do. So lets to it.

 

But why are Christians accusing logical atheists for being genocidal and mass-murderers when obviously Christians are the ones defending these horrific acts?

 

I dunno.

Well I do. Christians are heavily engaged in group-think. They think "we are good, they are not." Anyone inside the "label" is automatically considered good, and anything done within the "label" is also good, but anything done, or anyone doing it, outside are automatically evil.

 

The real reality shouldn't work that way. Moral should be considered, reasoned, and supported with reasonable arguments, not with belief in a tribal vengeful god.

 

"Acting in God's command" is nothing but an excuse for people to do evil things and feel good about it.

 

Sometimes.

Genocide is.

[mwc]

That you're pleased with your attempt to justify genocide really says it all.

 

mwc

[Antlerman]

What were the Israelite suppose to do? Lets take God out of the equation for a minute, and lets say that Israel just did these things just to do them. So, are they savage people? Are they murderers? I am just wondering on what political level one would view the ancient group of Israel. Also, on the level of that era in time. Were they robust, savage murderers during warfare compared to all the other settlements?

OK, let's take God out of the equation. Now we can accept as fact that these events never happened. Now that God is not the author of this book that contains these stories, we are free to accept the evidence of archeology on the ground that none of these cities were destroyed as told in the story of Joshua. Cities which are mentioned as destroyed, didn't even exist when the events are said to have occurred, but they were in existence during the Babylonian captivity when the books were written.

 

But to answer the question, how did the Jews imagine themselves politically to paint a picture of their mythical past like this? Answer: Tribal.

 

Second, the big question. Why did God order ALL of anything in the settlements to be killed or destroyed? I challenge to ask this. If the Bible would've said that an 'angel' came and destroyed all the settlement because of their sin; Would it be different?

Because it was the Jew's imagination of their own past, painted with sweeping ethno-centric judgments on the outsider tribes. This worldview is incompatible with our more global sensibilities, but was contextually appropriate for this ethno-centric mentality of a tribal group. That's why you struggle with it, as we all should.

 

Thirdly, Who is God? What is God in authority? Surely, a God could not be a God if He couldn't have authority. So, did God abuse His authority here? If God abused His authority, and slayed people out of 'just because'; then God is a murderer. Yes, to us, He would be a murderer, but to Him? Would He be a murderer for simply moving one human from physical to spiritual?

God in the OT is not the evolving god by the time of world of the NT (as the world of the NT is not as evolved as we are today). The problem lays with religious doctrines and traditions. In trying to make a cohesive religion tied into the Jew's religion by making claims to their traditions (various "prophecies" of Jesus in their scriptures, etc), then the later canonization of texts and councils trying to cement their control of people with doctrines of "orthodoxy", you end up with this conglomerated creature that is supposed to be consistent, but instead presents a schizophrenic image of some 'eternal Authority'.

 

Yes, you're correct in being confused by all of it. They are stories of humans at different times during our social evolution as a species. Much simpler to process it with that in mind, wouldn't you say?

 

IMO, I have always viewed the battles of Israel as just that, wars. In war, things happen. Now, like I said earlier, I don't justify genocide, but in a way, I get why God would've wanted the 'surrounding environment' destroyed. Supposedly, they worshiped other Gods, weren't very holy people etc. Now, Israel was God's HOLY people supposedly, and they had a million rules and laws to follow; not to mention that if things went bad, they would worship anything they found.

Then why didn't God send them into all the world to kill? Ever ask that question? Sounds to me like it's the Jews telling a bragging story of their past to inflate their sense of identity as a nation.

 

In fact.. the evidence shows that the Jews themselves were in fact Canaanites. That's right. Their pottery and dwellings and patterns of settlement were consistent with the Canaanites, and not some outside nation at all. They were likely living in the outer urban areas, then after the time of Egypt pulling out of that area and the collapse of the centers of power, they migrated out into the highlands and mingled with various other bands of people to live and eventually 200 years later form the Monarchy. After the Monarchy, then the stories in the Bible begin to show evidence as being factual in part. But not before.

 

God should be what you want God to be, or not to be. It's your choice, just like it was theirs, and just like it was the Christians. God evolves, and for some of us that evolution moves 'beyond God'. (I'm dropping the term atheist and am going to call myself 'post-theist', for the time).

 

Back to the genocide part. So God had them slayed, killed, murdered ( as some put it). What if God is just extremely Holy, the Bible is right, and His people needed to be Holy, and nothing in the confines of God could be foreign in that sense?

Then their mission would be that to slaughter the world. Much like your Islamic terrorists, wouldn't you say?

 

How consistent is that image of God with yours?

 

Could a God that demanded Holiness to such a degree live among unholy people of this nature? God in a sense then, was living among Israel, unlike now. He was hovering over a cloud, above the Holy of Hollies were the priests worshiped.

God had limits to his boundaries?? Say a 60 mile radius of purity for his presence??

 

This sure sounds a lot like the mythical ideas of a primitive tribal deity. Oh wait.... *light bulb goes off and shines brightly*

[NotBlinded]

(I'm dropping the term atheist and am going to call myself 'post-theist', for the time).

Ohhhh, I like it. Can I steal it?

[NotBlinded]

First I would have ran off screaming that I lost my mind!

No. You would have died in the fucking desert like every last one of them did INCLUDING MOSES!

 

At least that's what the bible says. First "god" kills off the entire "generation" of his own "chosen" people and then he raises up a new generation of mindless killers that WILL simply do his bidding...or not. They like those heathens and tend to bang them more often than not which means more random genocides.

 

mwc

What the hell was I thinking! Crap, I can't keep up with this notion of god.

 

I should practice my robotic skills in regards to thought processing...

[Antlerman]

So, if you and your brother were in Israel, saw Moses glowing, coming down from a mountain; striking a rock and water coming out; eating manna that fell from the sky; seen Moses raise his staff, and Israel defeated an army; seen someone miraculously die for stealing loot from a tribe they conquered etc.

 

You wouldn't did what supposedly God commanded? I am simply saying that I can see where they would've gotten the notion to obey God, and the God is Holy notion.

No. I wouldn't.

 

Why would you? So easily turned against your moral compass by feats of magic by a god that felt it necessary to impress children with a light show to get their attention?

 

Fair turn about, if God acted like that for you, would you be awed, or disappointed? I'd be disappointed. It smacks of nothing higher than that of a small, child-like imagination of a sky-god.

 

One would think if God were to want people to act consistently with his nature as holy, then his actions would not be at the end of a blood-soaked sword. I do not in any way, shape, or form accept that the way to change peoples action is through coercion, which is precisely what all that was. Change happens from within the heart, not from a sharp object being thrust through your loved ones because they didn't obey the god.

 

Honestly YoYo, how do you reconcile your heart to this? Let's shift the focus away from all these silly rationalizations that Christians feel mistakenly obligated to do to excuse it.

 

 

Here's a quote from something I recently read that I completely agree with, and that I think rightly pertains to this:

"But the very

depth

of reason, its capacity for universal-pluralism, its insistence on universal tolerance, its grasp of global-planetary perspectivism, its insistence on universal benevolence and compassion: these are the manifestations of its genuine depth, its

genuine

spirituality. These capacities are not

revealed

to reason from

without

(by a mythic source); they issue from

within

its own structure, its own

inherent

depth (which is why it does not need recourse to a mythic god to implement its agenda of universal benevolence,

why even an "atheist" acting from rational-universal compassion is more spiritual than a fundamentalist acting to convert the universe in the name of a mythic-membership god

). That the Spirit of reason does not fly through the sky hurling thunderbolts and otherwise spend its time turning spinach into potatoes speaks more, not less, on its behalf."

 

Ken Wilber

 

I could not say this better. Would I be impressed by a glowing staff? No. This is precisely why.

[RationalOkie]

 

 

Abiyoyo, I am very disappointed in your response. Let me make this clear, genocide is absolutely not o.k. during ANY time period. Not in 2009 or 1400 BC. Killing women and children can NOT...EVER....be justified. There is no defense for this....NONE! Logical people know this and this is why we don't want religious people in charge of our governments and more importantly our militaries.

 

I'm reminded of the great statement by Anne Lamott - "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

 

Not even at Pearl Harbor, when we bombed back? You should protest this country. Would you think of it differently if instead of 'killed' they were only injured and expedited to another land?

 

Watch 'The Fog of War' the defense secretary regreted the decision to fire bomb Tokyo. Again, genocide is unjustifiable.

[NotBlinded]

So, if you and your brother were in Israel, saw Moses glowing, coming down from a mountain; striking a rock and water coming out; eating manna that fell from the sky; seen Moses raise his staff, and Israel defeated an army; seen someone miraculously die for stealing loot from a tribe they conquered etc.

 

You wouldn't did what supposedly God commanded? I am simply saying that I can see where they would've gotten the notion to obey God, and the God is Holy notion.

No. I wouldn't.

 

Damn you and your wonderful, insightful posts Antlerman!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have some CD's and a book at home from Ken Wilber. I do like the way he thinks, but I'm not yet capable of accepting his integral spirituality. I still want to make people be at a more developed spiritual level. I'm not happy with the exclusivity of some of the levels.

 

You are much closer...

[Abiyoyo]

 

OK, let's take God out of the equation. Now we can accept as fact that these events never happened. Now that God is not the author of this book that contains these stories, we are free to accept the evidence of archeology on the ground that none of these cities were destroyed as told in the story of Joshua. Cities which are mentioned as destroyed, didn't even exist when the events are said to have occurred, but they were in existence during the Babylonian captivity when the books were written.

 

But to answer the question, how did the Jews imagine themselves politically to paint a picture of their mythical past like this? Answer: Tribal.

 

Good answer, as that is true.

 

 

Because it was the Jew's imagination of their own past, painted with sweeping ethno-centric judgments on the outsider tribes. This worldview is incompatible with our more global sensibilities, but was contextually appropriate for this ethno-centric mentality of a tribal group. That's why you struggle with it, as we all should.

 

100% so far AM

 

 

you end up with this conglomerated creature that is supposed to be consistent, but instead presents a schizophrenic image of some 'eternal Authority'.

 

It does paint that picture

 

Yes, you're correct in being confused by all of it. They are stories of humans at different times during our social evolution as a species. Much simpler to process it with that in mind, wouldn't you say?

 

Of course.

 

 

Then why didn't God send them into all the world to kill? Ever ask that question? Sounds to me like it's the Jews telling a bragging story of their past to inflate their sense of identity as a nation.

 

Because they had chariots of iron

 

In fact.. the evidence shows that the Jews themselves were in fact Canaanites. That's right. Their pottery and dwellings and patterns of settlement were consistent with the Canaanites, and not some outside nation at all. They were likely living in the outer urban areas, then after the time of Egypt pulling out of that area and the collapse of the centers of power, they migrated out into the highlands and mingled with various other bands of people to live and eventually 200 years later form the Monarchy. After the Monarchy, then the stories in the Bible begin to show evidence as being factual in part. But not before.

 

That is something discussed. The Stela stele has Canaan and Israel as both being defeated, so, like I said, it's discussed and pondered.

 

God should be what you want God to be, or not to be. It's your choice, just like it was theirs, and just like it was the Christians. God evolves, and for some of us that evolution moves 'beyond God'. (I'm dropping the term atheist and am going to call myself 'post-theist', for the time).

 

I agree and I hope that He is represented in the mindset of Christ as represented in the Bible.

 

 

Then their mission would be that to slaughter the world. Much like your Islamic terrorists, wouldn't you say?

 

How consistent is that image of God with yours?

 

It's not, as I said in a earlier post.

 

 

God had limits to his boundaries?? Say a 60 mile radius of purity for his presence??

 

This sure sounds a lot like the mythical ideas of a primitive tribal deity. Oh wait.... *light bulb goes off and shines brightly*

 

I wouldn't say God was limited, but by the story in the Bible, it may be possible that God appointed those tribal areas to be taken over. Why not Egypt? Dunno. Why not Babylon? Dunno.

 

Catch 22. One could say, because God did it that way, and He is God, and that's the way He wanted to do it and technically be right; or in a rational thought, say, because it's mythical creativity, and technically be right.

 

 

.....And Yes,...I am talking out of both sides of my mouth