Jin Kisaragi Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I guess I should look in the ex-testimony area for better data, I'm not really learning any reasons, just criticism of their ideas.(Some well founded, some not) It is hard to imagine these people don't have real life contact with de-converts. I know plenty of de-converts and I do not come from a Christian home, so I'll just say what they told me and maybe share some of my observations from the inside. Just recognizing that most ex-christians have some kind of reason is a great improvement over the blind assessments that seem to come floating to the top when Christians express their thoughts about this. My ex-girlfriend de-converted (I didn't break up with her for it, she did it before we broke up and we weren't very close because I am asexual and she is bi) and I asked her about it.. asked if it was a decision based on rational thought or did it just "happen"? She said rational thought. That's all she said. She was someone who kinda blended with her surroundings, so I'll admit I don't believe that. Perhaps, if it's not too sensitive, you might elaborate. Why wouldn't you believe her? I don't understand what "blended with her surroundings" means. My twin brother says he de-converted because of Christianity's bloody history, I thought he deconverted because he was pressured into the faith by his friend's mom and his faith lasted less than a year. I was born and raised in Church. Your brother (and you) weren't? Bloody, Machiavellian acts on the part of those who are the head of the apostolic church is a real turn-off, but does not invalidate Christianity (only the part about them being better than anyone else because of their faith). Likewise pedophile priests, adulterous televangelists, hypocritical believers etc. all belie the religious transformation of people, but do not invalidate the basic principles of Christianity. My sister was involved with a church, but teenage drama drove her out, and after that she says she's an apathetic agnostic. "Don't know, don't care, I've got life to live and kids to take care of." I wonder if perhaps she has deeper feelings and thoughts than you may have given her credit for. Countless others who "drifted" into drugs and alcohol, didn't come not because they didn't believe, but because they didn't act it so they thought they shouldn't pretend they do. (I respect this somewhat) Yes, but Church is for sinners. I do suspect that many who think they are atheists are actually Christians who have taken a sabbatical from the church to indulge themselves. This is what most Christians think atheists are, even if they are more moral than the (current) Pope. You also have a lot of people who kind do the church thing as "something to do" or believe they're doing God favors by showing up on Sundays. From my personal experience, I found it difficult to sit through a religious ceremony after my deconversion. I felt like a hypocrite, and the ceremony was bullshit. Worse than a waste of time. The way most of us came to our conclusions is almost impossible to write down in a brief statement. There are multiple threads that tied together - experiences, philosophy (including reading other religions), biblical criticism, science (including biochemistry, archeology, paleontology, geology, etc.), and contemplation of how this all fits together. It stays intellectual for perhaps years until it really sinks in. It's not an Aha! moment, but more like a "Oh, shit" moment. It isn't one thing, but there may be one thing that is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Re: GF, Just my experience with her, she's not much of a thinker type. By blending with surroundings, I mean if she was in a church she'd be religious, and act certain ways around certain people. She goes more with her feelings than her head. As far as MBTI goes, I'm INTJ and she is ESFP. Re: Brother, he had another issue too but he says that wasn't the cause. I'm sure he has other issues too. I can't say I know everything, but we respect each other. (We're twins) Re: Sister, I don't underestimate my sis. She's smart but she told me that herself. I don't really know how she was when she went to church. I went with her, but I wasn't Christian.. I was just a 12 year old who wanted to spend time with his sister. Re: Church in general, that's sort of a recent innovation imo. Back in the day the apostles "went out and preached the gospel" rather than the other way around. It's sort of a mess up on theology. I don't think Christians should call themselves sinners, but saved people. As Christianity is defined, the church is the saved people. So this "we're dirty sinners" reeks of false humility..which trickles down to non-believers being demonized, which does no good for anyone. I'm not saying Xians are better, that's a stupid doctrine. Re: Going to church, I don't really have anything to say but thanks for explaining that. The people I described there typically aren't deconverts, but you can't really tell. I'm so sorry. No' date=' really- I've never been there... don't know anything about Cleveland. But I have been to Cincinnati area a few times, and there seems to be no shortage of fundies there, so I've assumed that it's like the rest of Middle Amerika. And having grown up as an apostate in a number of Red States, I can count the number of exchristians that I've met in person on one hand. So it doesn't surprise me that lost of Christians would never have met one... or at least wouldn't be aware that they had.[/quote'] It's no problem really. My parents were "the children of Christian/Catholic parents" so they never took us to church or taught religion, they let us explore on our own. (Not for us to figure it out ourselves, but because they didn't really care) I really don't know how Cleveland is religiously, but I wasn't really exposed since I was agnostic for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 She goes more with her feelings than her head. As far as MBTI goes, I'm INTJ and she is ESFP. I've been a big fan of the Myers/Briggs format for a while now- I've found it to be a useful framework for comparing and understanding different personalities that I run into. My twin brother and I both score INTJ, while my wife is INFJ. I think that the NT/NF combination is one thing that makes us a damn good match. We INTJ's are pretty rare in the wild, but not that uncommon on this site. There was a thread or two around here on Myer's-Briggs types a while back (a year ago or more), and it seems that this forum is dominated by intuitive (N) personalities- which, again, are relatively uncommon in the general population. SJ's are nearly unheard of on this site except for visiting christians- even though SJ is the MOST common temperament overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jin Kisaragi Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 (Moar off topic) I'm a MBTI nerd. Flat out. I just finished making a MBTI "friend sheet" for the heck of it. I think they have a book about spirituality and type. (But I've never found it D:) Outside of social networking sites, SJ's are a rarity and SP's are nearly non existent. It's kind of nice. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 We INTJ's are pretty rare in the wild, but not that uncommon on this site. There was a thread or two around here on Myer's-Briggs types a while back (a year ago or more), and it seems that this forum is dominated by intuitive (N) personalities- which, again, are relatively uncommon in the general population. SJ's are nearly unheard of on this site except for visiting christians- even though SJ is the MOST common temperament overall. I wonder how it compares between the results of scientists and the general population. I'd also like to see Richard Dawkins' results vs Francis Collins.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizened Sage Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I think your poll would be twice as informative if you ran it also on this site, to get a reasonable sample of why those who actually did leave Christianity did so? You and I have our theories on what most deconverters would say, but how can we be sure we are right if we don't poll them and let them speak for themselves? -WizenedSage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRDWarrior Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 I think your poll would be twice as informative if you ran it also on this site, to get a reasonable sample of why those who actually did leave Christianity did so? You and I have our theories on what most deconverters would say, but how can we be sure we are right if we don't poll them and let them speak for themselves? -WizenedSage Reading the ex-timony threads gives a really good idea, and much more informed of why people really leave...so it's not a theory, been reading those threads since I got here. Our reasons for leaving are right there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The main reason I left is because I valued truth and scholarship. I used to have lots of quotes defending Christianity on my walls, and I think I was really trying to convince myself that I was right, because life would be so much easier if I didn't have to doubt anymore. But to prove you are right in any matter you have to understand the opposition...and I found out the real scholars were not on my side. I think there are logical reasons for leaving and emotional reasons for leaving, which the former being the stronger break. I think most nonbelievers don't like to talk about it in real life, the stigma is pretty amazing and finding someone you can talk to face to face is thrilling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 HRDWarrior wisely noted: Our reasons for leaving are right there! Yes, but you see - reading the extimonies would take effort. It would skate too close to getting to know us as people. And, well, we Can't Have That, can we. I suspect that's why too many Xian visitors don't bother. They don't want to have to do the work, and they don't really want to know us as anything other than a collection of statistics, as specimens in a zoo (or freak show), or as potential notches on a conversion belt. So they don't do their homework. Then they act like asshats. Then they wonder how come we treat them with such hostility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 For your enjoyment (or otherwise): Thanks. Very enjoyable. I think it is a plethora of things, but mostly because of the access to the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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