Why Christians Believe We Are Ex-Christians

[Seeking]

This just amazed me:

 

"If someone were so tied up in scripture that their love for God was tied to what they perceived to be completely true about scripture, then it is evident that these people love and worship the Bible rather than God."

 

Wha...??

[godlessgrrl]

I think the explanations Xians come up with for why we're apostates is from the Microsoft School of Customer Support™: always blame the end user. That way you never have to admit your product is screwed up.

 

But once you take a bite of the Apple, well... once you go Mac, you never go back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heh. I think I'm taking the competing computer companies metaphor a little too far...

[HRDWarrior]

Heh. I think I'm taking the competing computer companies metaphor a little too far...

 

 

Ah yes, but as someone who works with computers in an industry that still uses PC, I can totally relate

[Shyone]

There is an entire section in "Why I believed (Reflections of a former Missionary)" by Kenneth Daniels that deals extensively with this from every perspective. Really enlightening, but after reading it, I wonder that anyone ever escapes Christianity (or Islam or [enter religion here]).

 

It's Chapter 4 mainly, but also Chapter 3.

[HRDWarrior]

There is an entire section in "Why I believed (Reflections of a former Missionary)" by Kenneth Daniels that deals extensively with this from every perspective. Really enlightening, but after reading it, I wonder that anyone ever escapes Christianity (or Islam or [enter religion here]).

 

It's Chapter 4 mainly, but also Chapter 3.

 

I've never heard of that, may have to look into it (once I have some spare time - like around Christmas...)

[Brought None]

Now my real question is, why do they get all these other ideas, but seldom the real one(s)? Don't care? Can't blame their God for it? Can't blame their god for what their book says it is? That's what people tell them? They don't actually KNOW any deconverts that they've actually talked to?

 

It's because they get all their information about ex-Christians, atheists, witches, etc. from the sermons they hear every Sunday, and those sermons are the gosh-darned gospel truth. That way we can't fool them with our supposed lies.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Last time I went to church back home the sermon was titled "Why Christians are better than Everyone."

[Yrth]

Last time I went to church back home the sermon was titled "Why Christians are better than Everyone."

Heh. wow. None too subtle, eh?

[HRDWarrior]

 

 

Agreed.

 

Last time I went to church back home the sermon was titled "Why Christians are better than Everyone."

 

 

At least they're being honest about their view!

[HRDWarrior]

Still getting some replies on that thread - I love the last one that was posted, so far off-base it's hardly amusing (although similiar to a lot of what I hear coming from them).

[★ Citsonga ★]

I can understand where some of them are coming from, because I was similar to that back when I was a believer. I just could not conceive of the possibility that Christianity wasn't absolute truth, and so I could not conceive of the possibility that a "believer" could become a nonbeliever on logical grounds.

 

What I bold-ed is what you might call a really good mindfuck.

 

Indeed. And the realization that my mind had been fucked for so long played a role in causing the period of depression I went through as I broke away from the faith. I was so thoroughly fucked that, though otherwise a fairly reasonable and logical person, I didn't start questioning my faith until I was 29. Now I envy those who saw through the bullshit early on and didn't have religion screw their careers over and get them to marry into more religious family.

[qec]

I've noticed so far, that some of their responses are reasonable - they certainly seem aware that people might leave Christianity because of the way they'be been treated - at least there is some awareness of that.

 

On the other hand, they are always attracted to this idea that we've "traded logic for faith" (imagine that) and that we've rejected "God's authority" because we "want to live it up". As well, "they were never really one of us in the first place, confirmed by the Holy Ghost, etc".

 

It's interesting to note that once again, there is always this resistance to believe that atheists or non-believers can be responsible moral people, living the same kind of ethical and virtue-based lives like themselves. How naive, if not arrogant. But then again, religion breeds a sense of "childishness" to everything, I've noticed. Sometimes I just feel like telling Christians and other religious people to "Grow-the-****-up"

 

To which they could merely reply:

 

1 At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.

Matthew 18:1-5

 

Sadly, they would merely quote you that verse and then argue that they are doing as Gawd commanded them. But really, I do sympathize with you; there are times when I have felt like telling Christians to just "Grow the Fuck up" as well. The saddest thing on top of these general feelings, is that they can never see that the Carrot and Stick routine (Heaven and Hell) is one of the reasons they need to grow up; black and white thinking is silly and childish in a world that is so grown up with so many colors (not merely just shades of grey). If we perceived moral color with our minds as we perceive color with our eyes Humanity would be so better off or could have been far better off for some time now. Having moral perception that get's outside of black/white and even black/white/shades of grey, well to me that means "growing up"; out of the naive religious provincialism I was raised with and into something far more sophisticated and mature. I don't want to be a little child, stuck in a black and white movie, I want to be able to grow and break free of mental bondage that tried to preserve me in a state of eternal youth/innocence. I want to break free of black and white, and experience the world, as a mature organism, in living, breathing, Moral Color.

 

I guess you could say that I got what I wanted, and continue to get what I want in that area. I will never regret it.

[Neon Genesis]

Doesn't this thread contradict the Christian claim that there are no ex-Christians because a true Christian would have never had deconverted? Yet here are the Christians admitting that there are reasons why Christians deconvert. Someone should save this thread for next time a Christian tells us we were never real Christians.

[HRDWarrior]

Doesn't this thread contradict the Christian claim that there are no ex-Christians because a true Christian would have never had deconverted? Yet here are the Christians admitting that there are reasons why Christians deconvert. Someone should save this thread for next time a Christian tells us we were never real Christians.

 

 

There are several who have replied as such;)

 

 

I love one of the more recent posts - to sum up, basically she's saying life sucks with god, life sucks without, but they believe because then they can "pretend" there's something more (she uses "hope" not "pretend" but same difference!).

[Deva]

I love one of the more recent posts - to sum up, basically she's saying life sucks with god, life sucks without, but they believe because then they can "pretend" there's something more (she uses "hope" not "pretend" but same difference!).

 

Yes, hope used in the way that person does, is simply baloney. However, the post as a whole, except the last two or three paragraphs, was quite interesting. It was almost like the person is a potential deconvert. They take the blinders off for a moment and seem to clearly see many of the problems, then suddenly its "Bible blinders on" and they start talking about hope.

[HRDWarrior]

 

Yes, hope used in the way that person does, is simply baloney. However, the post as a whole, except the last two or three paragraphs, was quite interesting. It was almost like the person is a potential deconvert. They take the blinders off for a moment and seem to clearly see many of the problems, then suddenly its "Bible blinders on" and they start talking about hope.

 

 

Those were my thoughts exactly as I was reading it! At first I was thinking "and how are you still a christian?" then I got to the end

[HermanNZ]

Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading the Christian replies.

It reminded me why I left.

 

Thanks for posting the question on the christian site.

 

Cheers

[Dagan]

How nice that there's always the "you were never a true Christian" argument to fall back on.

 

Judge not, lest ye be judged apparently is forgotten.

 

And I'm sure many of us here can tell stories about how we were "true Christians," meeting the necessary criteria of being spirit-filled, speaking in tongues or whatever our particular denominations required.

[Jin Kisaragi]

I guess I should look in the ex-testimony area for better data, I'm not really learning any reasons, just criticism of their ideas.(Some well founded, some not) It is hard to imagine these people don't have real life contact with de-converts. I know plenty of de-converts and I do not come from a Christian home, so I'll just say what they told me and maybe share some of my observations from the inside.

 

My ex-girlfriend de-converted (I didn't break up with her for it, she did it before we broke up and we weren't very close because I am asexual and she is bi) and I asked her about it.. asked if it was a decision based on rational thought or did it just "happen"? She said rational thought. That's all she said. She was someone who kinda blended with her surroundings, so I'll admit I don't believe that.

 

My twin brother says he de-converted because of Christianity's bloody history, I thought he deconverted because he was pressured into the faith by his friend's mom and his faith lasted less than a year.

 

My sister was involved with a church, but teenage drama drove her out, and after that she says she's an apathetic agnostic. "Don't know, don't care, I've got life to live and kids to take care of."

 

Countless others who "drifted" into drugs and alcohol, didn't come not because they didn't believe, but because they didn't act it so they thought they shouldn't pretend they do. (I respect this somewhat)

 

You also have a lot of people who kind do the church thing as "something to do" or believe they're doing God favors by showing up on Sundays.

[RankStranger]

I guess I should look in the ex-testimony area for better data, I'm not really learning any reasons, just criticism of their ideas.(Some well founded, some not) It is hard to imagine these people don't have real life contact with de-converts. I know plenty of de-converts and I do not come from a Christian home, so I'll just say what they told me and maybe share some of my observations from the inside.

 

My ex-girlfriend de-converted (I didn't break up with her for it, she did it before we broke up and we weren't very close because I am asexual and she is bi) and I asked her about it.. asked if it was a decision based on rational thought or did it just "happen"? She said rational thought. That's all she said. She was someone who kinda blended with her surroundings, so I'll admit I don't believe that.

 

My twin brother says he de-converted because of Christianity's bloody history, I thought he deconverted because he was pressured into the faith by his friend's mom and his faith lasted less than a year.

 

My sister was involved with a church, but teenage drama drove her out, and after that she says she's an apathetic agnostic. "Don't know, don't care, I've got life to live and kids to take care of."

 

Countless others who "drifted" into drugs and alcohol, didn't come not because they didn't believe, but because they didn't act it so they thought they shouldn't pretend they do. (I respect this somewhat)

 

You also have a lot of people who kind do the church thing as "something to do" or believe they're doing God favors by showing up on Sundays.

 

I'm guessing, then, that you don't live in Middle America (with a few urban exceptions)?

[Guest Davka]

I guess I should look in the ex-testimony area for better data

 

That's the best place to really get a handle on why people leave - although there tends to be a lot of bitterness in the extimonies, because people are freshly emerging from a system that more often than not treated them very badly once they started to question.

 

My own church helped the transition from questioner to atheist by refusing to talk to me about my questions, telling me to stop asking them in Bible study, asking me to stop helping with the Sunday School classes because I no longer held "orthodox" beliefs (even though I was not sharing my questions with the kids at all), and essentially pushing me from the "inner circle" to the outer fringes within about 6 months time. It was all very friendly and smiling, and not at all loving.

 

It helped me to realize that "god" had not changed these people at all. They were just like everyone else, with the added benefit of self-satisfied hypocrisy. I stopped attending and found a more accepting congregation, where they let me ask all the questions I wanted. Unfortunately, they didn't have any answers.

 

But at least they openly admitted it. My wife and kids still attend (they are there now) and I have no resentment towards this United Methodist church. But then, when I was a True Christian^TM I would have considered them apostates. They allow gay couples and female pastors. The horror!

 

The Calvary Chapel that let me walk away without even bothering to say "goodbye" still makes me laugh ironically. The Pastor there had a "vision" for the church, that it would be a safe place for Christians who had been wounded by other churches. And they ended up screwing me over, but good.

[Jin Kisaragi]

I guess I should look in the ex-testimony area for better data, I'm not really learning any reasons, just criticism of their ideas.(Some well founded, some not) It is hard to imagine these people don't have real life contact with de-converts. I know plenty of de-converts and I do not come from a Christian home, so I'll just say what they told me and maybe share some of my observations from the inside.

 

My ex-girlfriend de-converted (I didn't break up with her for it, she did it before we broke up and we weren't very close because I am asexual and she is bi) and I asked her about it.. asked if it was a decision based on rational thought or did it just "happen"? She said rational thought. That's all she said. She was someone who kinda blended with her surroundings, so I'll admit I don't believe that.

 

My twin brother says he de-converted because of Christianity's bloody history, I thought he deconverted because he was pressured into the faith by his friend's mom and his faith lasted less than a year.

 

My sister was involved with a church, but teenage drama drove her out, and after that she says she's an apathetic agnostic. "Don't know, don't care, I've got life to live and kids to take care of."

 

Countless others who "drifted" into drugs and alcohol, didn't come not because they didn't believe, but because they didn't act it so they thought they shouldn't pretend they do. (I respect this somewhat)

 

You also have a lot of people who kind do the church thing as "something to do" or believe they're doing God favors by showing up on Sundays.

 

I'm guessing, then, that you don't live in Middle America (with a few urban exceptions)?

 

NE Ohio, 9/11th spent in ghetto part of Cleveland.

[Guest]

I think the explanations Xians come up with for why we're apostates is from the Microsoft School of Customer Support: always blame the end user. That way you never have to admit your product is screwed up.

 

But once you take a bite of the Apple, well... once you go Mac, you never go back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heh. I think I'm taking the competing computer companies metaphor a little too far...

 

A-Fucking-MEN!! Did not take it too far at all!

[Shyone]

I guess I should look in the ex-testimony area for better data, I'm not really learning any reasons, just criticism of their ideas.(Some well founded, some not) It is hard to imagine these people don't have real life contact with de-converts. I know plenty of de-converts and I do not come from a Christian home, so I'll just say what they told me and maybe share some of my observations from the inside.

 

Just recognizing that most ex-christians have some kind of reason is a great improvement over the blind assessments that seem to come floating to the top when Christians express their thoughts about this.

 

 

My ex-girlfriend de-converted (I didn't break up with her for it, she did it before we broke up and we weren't very close because I am asexual and she is bi) and I asked her about it.. asked if it was a decision based on rational thought or did it just "happen"? She said rational thought. That's all she said. She was someone who kinda blended with her surroundings, so I'll admit I don't believe that.

 

Perhaps, if it's not too sensitive, you might elaborate. Why wouldn't you believe her? I don't understand what "blended with her surroundings" means.

 

 

My twin brother says he de-converted because of Christianity's bloody history, I thought he deconverted because he was pressured into the faith by his friend's mom and his faith lasted less than a year.

 

I was born and raised in Church. Your brother (and you) weren't? Bloody, Machiavellian acts on the part of those who are the head of the apostolic church is a real turn-off, but does not invalidate Christianity (only the part about them being better than anyone else because of their faith). Likewise pedophile priests, adulterous televangelists, hypocritical believers etc. all belie the religious transformation of people, but do not invalidate the basic principles of Christianity.

 

 

My sister was involved with a church, but teenage drama drove her out, and after that she says she's an apathetic agnostic. "Don't know, don't care, I've got life to live and kids to take care of."

 

I wonder if perhaps she has deeper feelings and thoughts than you may have given her credit for.

 

 

Countless others who "drifted" into drugs and alcohol, didn't come not because they didn't believe, but because they didn't act it so they thought they shouldn't pretend they do. (I respect this somewhat)

 

Yes, but Church is for sinners. I do suspect that many who think they are atheists are actually Christians who have taken a sabbatical from the church to indulge themselves. This is what most Christians think atheists are, even if they are more moral than the (current) Pope.

 

 

You also have a lot of people who kind do the church thing as "something to do" or believe they're doing God favors by showing up on Sundays.

From my personal experience, I found it difficult to sit through a religious ceremony after my deconversion. I felt like a hypocrite, and the ceremony was bullshit. Worse than a waste of time.

 

The way most of us came to our conclusions is almost impossible to write down in a brief statement. There are multiple threads that tied together - experiences, philosophy (including reading other religions), biblical criticism, science (including biochemistry, archeology, paleontology, geology, etc.), and contemplation of how this all fits together. It stays intellectual for perhaps years until it really sinks in. It's not an Aha! moment, but more like a "Oh, shit" moment. It isn't one thing, but there may be one thing that is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[RankStranger]

NE Ohio, 9/11th spent in ghetto part of Cleveland.

 

I'm so sorry.

 

No, really- I've never been there... don't know anything about Cleveland. But I have been to Cincinnati area a few times, and there seems to be no shortage of fundies there, so I've assumed that it's like the rest of Middle Amerika. And having grown up as an apostate in a number of Red States, I can count the number of exchristians that I've met in person on one hand. So it doesn't surprise me that lots of Christians would never have met one... or at least wouldn't be aware that they had.

[HRDWarrior]

When I was a christian, I knew ONE person who had deconverted. Anyone else that was somewhat "deconverted" I wouldn't say had really deconverted - they just got sick of the human crap in church, but didn't necessarily NOT believe in christianity.

 

Heck, even since deconverting, I've only met a couple people who no longer believe, and one of them is my hubby who basically followed me out! I've met plenty of people who were never into religion, and many who are much more liberal christians than I ever was, but almost no deconverts outside of this board.

 

Since as a christian I just couldn't have imagined why anyone would leave christianity (heck, the one gal I knew who had simply baffled me as to how she could lose her faith - but I think it did plant a seed in my mind). Seeing comments here and in other places, I figured christians in general really are clueless as to why people leave. They may have met the occasional deconvert in one way or another, but I think they tend to reinterpret what that person tells them to fit into what they believe. For example, for me, they'd probably tell me I was never a true christian - could have fooled me for over 20 years, but since I didn't leave because I wanted a life of sin, didn't leave for science, but instead for philosophical reasons, that'd probably be their reasoning - would have been mine back in the day!